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John — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:36:01 +0000

Sounds good Kash[smile].
As a joke, and as a fan of Dr.Seuss, I’m going to cook up and eat some green-dyed scrambled eggs and ham tonight for dinner too.

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kash — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:38:25 +0000

Well, lets agree to drink green lemonade, then

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John — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:37:00 +0000

Wouldn’t it be more creative and informative to explain in detail how Kash is mistaken instead of just posting a short critisizm and running away from the debate, Paul?

Happy St. Patrick’s Day to you too, Kash, and everyone else as well. I’ll sing that song[when I'm alone so no one can hear me, because my singing voice stinks like three day road-kill], but as I don’t drink alcoholic drinks, you’ll have to tip one back in my stead[smile].

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Paul — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:03:36 +0000

Kash: Obviously you don’t even understand most of what your read. I’m done spending time explaining anything to you Kash, after all your nothing more than a statist and everyone knows that by now.

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kash — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:45:34 +0000

Paul: “In a ten-year study undertaken at the Univesity of Houston, researchers examined 15,000 documents from America’s founders and determined that 34% of the quotations came from the Bible, the highest by far of any source.”
Ahh, yes, David Barton’s thoroughly misleading characterization of the Houston study. For a more accurate description, go here: http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/arg9.htm
Note the following: “First, Barton does not report the most relevant evidence from Lutz’s article: in addition to their general citation count from 1760 to 1805, Lutz and Hyneman compile a count specific to political debate on the Constitution between the years 1787 and 1788 (the years corresponding to the drafting and ratification of the Constitution). According to Lutz, this sample “comes close to exhausting” the literature written on the Constitution during this period (Relative Influence, p. 194). If the founders believed that the Bible was truly relevant to the Constitution, Biblical citations should appear in abundance in this sample, but, they don’t. On the contrary, Biblical citations are virtually nonexistent in this sample. According to Lutz, federalist (i.e., pro-Constitution) writers never quoted the Bible in their political writings between 1787 and 1788.”

And, of course, ” Additionally, Barton omits Lutz’s breakdown of sources for his 34% figure. Three fourths of the Biblical citations in Lutz’s 1760 to 1805 sample come, not from secular sources, but from reprinted sermons (one of the most popular types of political writing during these years). Conversely, the Bible accounts for only 9% of all citations in secular literature, about equal to the number of citations from classical authors (Origins, p. 140). Hence, were it not for the political activity of religious clergy, the Bible would be tied for fourth place among source citations during 1760 and 1805.”

The Truth shall set you free, and bending it to make you case only hurts your witness to the Truth, who is Christ.

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Paul — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:27:16 +0000

Christianity has been the single largest influence on western society. America’s Founding Fathers had the benefit of thousands of years of history to draw on when establishing their government. They could see what had failed in the past. There had been times when the state had absolute authority and persecuted the church. At other times the church had effective control of the state. The founders saw that neither of these extremes were ideal. They developed a system that stood the test of time. Observers everywhere generally agree that American’s Founding Fathers achieved a solid balance between church and state, one consistent with biblical concepts.
In a ten-year study undertaken at the Univesity of Houston, researchers examined 15,000 documents from America’s founders and determined that 34% of the quotations came from the Bible, the highest by far of any source.
But many people today reject the notion that the Bible should be used as a basis for law. “Narrow minded and outdated!” they say. Ideas have consequences. Let’s examine the implications if the Bible is or is not the standard for society and its legal system.
Without an objective standard of truth upon which to base society, the result is that whoever gains the most political power will dominate. Christians believe that the Bible offers ultimate, objective, and absolute truth—as opposed to relative “truth” (i.e., arbitrary “absolutes”). There was a general consensus on this point in America from the earliest settlers until only very recently.
Founding Father and educator Noah Webster (1758-1843) had this to say: “The moral principles and precepts contained in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”
So it was natural for the early Americans to turn to the Bible for guidance as to how to make civil law. This was the standard for law beginning with the Mayflower Compact all the way through the constitutions of all 50 states. By the way, what was the stated purpose of the Pilgrims as expressed in the Mayflower Compact? Contrary to revisionist history, their purpose was not to find reigious freedom—they already had found religious freedom in Holland. Their purpose is clearly stated as being for the “Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith.” The Pilgrims were missionaries.
The first state constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut (1639). You may read this document at http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/orders.html. The framers of this document desired that every aspect of it be based on the Bible. This document was a model for other constitutions including the U.S. Consitution which followed. The above table outlines the wide spread influence of biblical thought on America’s legal system.
Biblical absolutes enshrined into law offered a consensus that meant freedom without chaos. One aspect of this is that, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, there exists “unalienable rights” of men. Rights were unalienable because they were given by God. This is very significant because in most societies up until that time (and indeed even today), rights are only conferred by whoever is in power at the time.
Because the American consensus was that the Bible was TRUTH, the tyranny of a few or even the tyranny of the majority could be overcome by one person standing up and appealing to the Bible. The freedom of expression in general in America is a result of our biblical system. Those people who feel free today to condemn the Bible are, ironically, among those who benefit most by the freedoms inherant in our biblical system!
An important aspect of our system of government is that it is based on the Rule of Law. This concept is a direct descendant of Hebrew law and the Ten Commandments. Together with the concept of unalienable rights from God, these concepts helped ensure a way of life that respected the dignity of every individual.
It is helpful to contrast the American Revolution of 1776 with the French Revolution of 1789. While the American revolution began with an appeal to the sovereinty of God, the French Revolution was founded on the sovereignty of man. The French movement was a product of Voltaire’s philosophy which specifically attempted to replace biblical Christianity with man’s reason as the ultimate standard.
But the French revolution was a disaster. Anarchy and tyranny reigned with 40,000 people being murdered, the favorite method being the guillotine. Their new constitution only lasted 2 years. Indeed, France has had 7 constitutions during the time that America has only had one.
Another important aspect to America’s constitution is that it has as its basis the distinctly Christian idea that man is basically sinful. Every one of our founding fathers understood this truth. It has been said that the 16th century Protestant reformer John Calvin, who is the theologian most associated with the biblical doctrine of man’s “depravity,” was the single most influential person to our Constitution. The result was that the founders built into the Constitution an elaborate system of checks and balances. This is evident in the horizontal plane of executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government. It is also evident in the vertical plane of federalism—states’ powers versus federal powers.
Again, let’s look at the evidence by contrasting the American system with other systems. Other systems are based on the idea that man is basically good, or at least perfectable by law and education. This is the basis for communism as well as the religious states of Islam. But states based on these utopian ideas are always failures and particularly repressive to their citizens. These governments end up as a police state and take away rights of the citizens.
It has been said that America has never been a Christian nation, or that our founders were a bunch of atheists, agnostics, and deists. But consider the facts. At least 50 of the 55 framers of the U. S. Constitution were Christians (see M. E. Bradford’s book listed below). Every single American president has taken his oath on the Bible and has referenced God in his inaugural address. Every one of the 50 state constitutions call on God for support. The Supreme Court, in 1892 after a an exhaustive 10-year study of the matter, said: “This is a relgious people. This is a Christian nation.” See Holy Trinity Decision. Even today, the Supreme Court opens each session with the verbal declaration, “God save the United States of America.”
Perhaps the most famous statement in America’s Declaration of Independence is, “All men are created equal.” The concept of universal human rights and equality comes exclusively from the biblical ideas that all people are created in the image of God and from Jesus’ sacrificial death for all. This concept was unkown in history outside of biblically based cultures.
There are, however, two areas in which the American system failed— (1) racial slavery and (2) compassionateless wealth. But both of these flaws are failures to implement biblical Christianity, rather than being caused by it.
A few comments about slavery are important because so many people throw it in the face of Christians. Racial slavery is not a biblical ethic. Yes, a form of slavery—indentured servitude— is condoned in the Bible. But this was a method in which people could pay off debts and was not what we think of as racial slavery (Bible and Slavery). In fact, the Bible specifically condemns the slave trade (Exodus 21:16; 1 Timothy 1:10). The Bible offers a unique framework for people as being equals: We were all are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) and we are all equal in God’s sight (1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:28). Race, interestingly, is never even mentioned in the Bible.
Historian Glenn Sunshine in his book Why You Think the Way You Do explains that, “Christians were the first people in history to oppose slavery systematically. Early Christians purchased slaves in the markets simply to set them free.”
Professing Christians who held slaves prostituted the Bible by letting culture influence their faith (just as some unfaithful Christians today have abortions). Yet, the abolition movement was primarily a Christian movement. Slavery was stopped in England largely as a result of the tireless efforts of an evangelical Christian by the name of William Wilburforce. Through his work in Parliament, England stopped the slave trade in 1807 and abolished slavery totally in 1833. Unfortunately, there was no such early dynamic abolitionist leader in America.
The other problem in western culture has been unredistributed wealth. Neither the Bible (Mark 14:7) nor the American system seeks to have all people have equal outcomes. We are all created equal and we all have an equal opportunity to pursue our dreams, but we are not expected to all achieve equally.
Yet, the industrialization of the West brought great wealth to a few, while some were victimized. It can be argued that the working class was victimized to a degree in the early days of the industrial revolution. Fortunately, laws are now in place that protect the worker. And we have child labor laws, for example.
The issue is unrestrained capitalism. Later in our history, America instituted anti-trust laws and environmental laws. These laws can be seen as consistent with biblical capitalism as opposed to darwinian capitalism. Instead of capitalism based solely on the survival of the fittest, modern American capitalism uses law to make the playing field more equal and provide equal protection under the law—while still enouraging entrepeneurism.
A free society must have an objective moral constraint upon its people. This moral constraint, as John Adams insisted (above quote) will destroy not only government but business as well. Politicians without such constraint will find ways to destroy the Constitution to suit their desire for power. It is such moral constraint that monitors business people as well to charge a fair price, pay a fair wage, not cheat customers or employees, to help the needy, etc. We once asked an applicant applying for a job whether he believed in moral absolutes. Reflecting the secular attitude of his business school background, he quickly repied, “No.” We then asked him, “Then how do we know you won’t cheat our customers?” He was stunned by the question and had no realistic answer.
As a general statement, it is an inherent truth of capitalism that in the long run people succeed in business if they provide services and goods that people want. Biblical capitalism—even more so—emphasizes service over strict selfish ambition.
It should be emphasized that capitalism has its roots in Christianity. Historian Glenn Sunshine in his book Why You Think the Way You Do points out that the work ethic in Christianity is rooted in the Bible. God himself works, so Christians have seen an inherent goodness in labor and productivity. Another key component of capitalism is property rights. The Old Testament focuses on rules for property ownership. Throughout history, societies influenced by Christianity have had a stronger emphasis on property rights than other cultures. The idea that people are entitled to the fruits of their labor, together with property rights and the rule of law, laid a firm foundation for capitalism.
So again, the flaws in American society are not in biblical Christianity, rather in the failure to implement it. If the voluntary individual compassion of Christ were to dominate society, poverty—while it would never disappear (Mark 14:7)—would be lessened. The solution is not forced redistribution of wealth, which is tantamount to stealing. The solution is public emphasis on biblical ethics.
In summary, let’s refer to our nation’s creed—The Pledge of Allegiance—which sums up our way of life. It is a based on a three-legged stool of God, liberty, and justice. All three must be there. If God is not there, ethics and rights are defined by whoever has the most power. And in order to have liberty, we must have justice. The first role of government is to prevent evil (Romans 13:1-5, 1 Peter 2:13-17) so that the rest of society can live in peace. Evil is only meaningful within a biblical context.
When our culture desparately needs what Christianity offers, the courts are foolishly removing the Bible. Liberty demands ethical obligation. We must have a common understanding of moral absolutes, or as John Adams said, “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
America is grounded in the idea of “self government.” What does this mean? To say that self-government is only the ability of citizens to vote and to elect their representatives is to have an incomplete notion of self-government. Government in biblical thought is not just civil government. In fact, civil government is the least important aspect of government. Government is first that of the individual to govern himself. This is why religion must be encouraged, as John Adams noted. The founding fathers of America clearly understood this. The second most important level of government is the family. The third is the church. Last is civil government.
And within civil government, our Founding Fathers understood that local and state government was more important than federal government. Our Constitution specifically limits the powers of the federal government, even though this precept hs been continually usurped.
The Founders referenced 2 Corinthians 3:17 in support of freedom above all else. This passage states, “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” The Liberty Bell declares from Leviticus 25:10: “Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof.”
Liberals and secularists have it backwards. They think that the federal government is the most important. This is consistent with totalitarianism, but not with the American concept of self-government. Big government socialism is not consistent with the Bible. Not only is the government inefficient in delivering most services, it more often than not hurts those it is intended to help. The welfare mess is classic case in point, now proven over decades of failure.
Libertarians are also wrong about government. There is no warrant for everyone being allowed to do whatever they want without restraint. Objective moral values exist. Nobody has the right to do wrong. Taken to its logical conclusion, libertarianism is anarchy. Even in a society that does not accept the Bible as the standard of truth, America’s founders believed, as codified in the Declaration of Independence, that objective moral values can be determined at least by reason. The Bible itself (first 3 chapters of Romans) affirms that by nature and conscience all men understand the existence of objective moral values. In government, this is sometimes referred to as “natural law.”
What is the purpose of civil government, according to the Bible? The purpose of civil government is very simply to be God’s servant to restrain evil and reward good (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-14). Christians are (a) to pray for and obey governmental authority (1 Timothy 2:1-4), (b) unless it forbids what God requires or requires what God forbids, in which case Christians cannot submit, and some form of civil disobedience becomes inescapable (Acts 4:18-31, 5:17-29), (c) to influence government because all of life is under God’s authority (Psalm 24:1; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 42:8; Matthew 28:18-20; 2 Corinthians 10:5). In a participatory democracy, Christians are under obligation to participate in civil government (Matthew 22:21).
As put by Dinesh D’Souza in his book What’s So Great about Christianity, “Christianity enhanced the notion of political and social accountability by providing a new model: that of servant leadership. In ancient Greece and Rome no one would have dreamed of considering political leaders anyone’s servants. The job of the leader was to lead. But Christ invented the notion that the way to lead is by serving the needs of others, especially those who are the most needy. Mark 10:43 quotes Christ:’Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant…for even the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve.’ And in Luke 22:27 we hear Jesus say, ‘Who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.’ In the new Christian framework, leaders are judged by how well they respond to the concerns and welfare of the people. Over time, people once known as ‘followers’ or ‘subjects’ become ‘customers’ and ‘constituents’.”

Should Christians be involved in politics and government? We argue that Christians should care about politics because, ultimately, we care about people. Government has an increasingly large influence on the lives of people, thus we cannot ignore politics. Further, almost every law reflects someone’s idea of morality. Since God’s morality is ultimate and universal, society benefits by the Christian’s participation in the public square. That is, society benefits when biblical truth is reflected in law. Indeed, Christians should be involved in all aspects of society, including law, art, music, economics, science, etc.

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kash — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:59:29 +0000

Happy St Patrick’s Day, John. Drink a pint of green Guinness and sing a round of “Danny Boy.” We’re mostly settled into the new house, still a few things at the old one, like pictures hanging on the walls. I’m still trying to relocate all my barn cats, and a friend is feeding some of my dogs because the fence isn’t up at my new house yet. Its nice to be much closer to work, though. I can come home for lunch, always better for the pocketbook (and waistline) than eating out! The kids love the new house, it has a very “open” floor plan and they like to go running and sliding on the hardwood floors.

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John — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:45:27 +0000

My apologies for not responding to you sooner Paul and Mike, but as mentioned within the beginning of post number four above the computer was broken. And now it’s not[toothy grin]. SO………..
Mike post 7,
[Imagine the words in voice of Tom Hanks]
Didn’t read through Paul’s post, eh? I had thought that you had when you responded to my post number two to Paul. “Unfortunately, more people condemn Christianity for the treatment of the Native Americans or the persecution of the Jews in Europe than defend it for the good it has done…”
Well Mike, it is an awful big bloody skeleton in the closet of Christian history, you know, along with the Crusades, The Dark Ages, The Grand Inquisition, the raising of various non-Christian religious sites, the burning of the Library of Alexandria in 391, not to mention various holy wars against OTHER Christian denominations, to list a few things….
Who else persecuted the Native Americans so effectively? Buddhists? From Catholic Conquistadors to many of our early presidents, to Missions and Missionaries who tried to “train the Native Americanism out of them” and help erase their diverse ethnic heritage/cultures and languages. As for the Jews, who else was persecuting them in Europe for so many centuries? Who started the Grand Inquisition? I am not saying that those who perpetrated such acts were good examples of Christians, but whether you want to agree that they were in fact Christians or not, THEY believed that they were Christians, and were often working their deeds under the support of Christian authority figures.
Now, you should know well enough by now to know that I am big enough not to judge all of Christianity by these episodes of madness, or books like the Malleus Maleficarum…or anything written by Joan Hake Robie or Bob Larson[grin]. Have I not in the past defended Christian doctrine and Christians when annoying Atheistic posters were criticizing said topics? Have I not offered words of support for various posters upon this website? Of course. It’s all part of trying to be an impartial student of humanity and world history. However, these incidents ARE still a large part of Christian history, and there’s nothing to be done but accept some form of responsibility by accepting/admitting that such things are a part of your theological belief system’s colorful history, and try and learn from the actions of others in the past and try not to repeat such behavior. If you can.
Paul post 9,
[Imagine the words in the voice of an old sage]
Well, well, finally decided to knock a hole in that barrier and communicate with me, even if you didn’t answer any of the questions I asked you within post number two. I would still like you to try.
When I said within my post that I love having more choices, it was because I exist within a much larger universe than you seem to, in every aspect.Your perception of the Divine does not even allow you to accept science and ancient history without the feeling that you are in danger of becoming a misled heretic. I have no such restrictions. I am also free to worship in any way that I feel is best for me to personally express myself to the Divine without worrying about complex Dogma. I am free to mingle with others of completely different faiths, or none at all, without fear of Divine reprimand. I need not concern myself with competition against the Faith of others, or their lack of. Because I do not exist within a Universe of only “Black and White”, but instead a Universe that contains various shades of “gray” within it as well, I have more choices available to me in regards to the Divine/Afterlife and the ways that I live my life. If you would like to get into this a little deeper then I suggest that we discuss this further within the “Understanding The World Of Wicca And More” in order to avoid getting too far off topic here, assuming that I did not misunderstand what you were trying to ask about my “standard”.
Absolute freedom to me is, I believe, the ability to do anything that I wish at anytime I wish it. This is of course limited by the realities of life….not even within my fondest bouts of lucid dreaming do I possess such freedom, but that’s o.k., for if I could do whatever I wished whenever I wished then I would probably become very soft and decrepit in time, and life is already pretty grand, allowing me more freedoms to do as I please than many other people I know[smile]. If you think that you’re freedoms are better than mine, then perhaps you will finally open yourself up to us all and share yourself with us so that we may more accurately decide these things for ourselves. What I have seen of late is a man who copies information of websites so often that he seems unable to easily express himself to others. I would like to hope that post nine is the beginning of the end of that illusion.
What is a Theocracy? Don’t you already know? Or are you wondering if my definition of a Theocracy is very different from yours[smile]? If not, then you could easily look it up on Wikipedia, you know.
Mike post 10,
Well I’m glad to see that you think I’m that interesting, although I imagine that you’re probably unsatisfied with my response to Paul. You see, For a question like that about “standards” I need more specific questions to help me understand the proper context of the inquiry. I’m anal and nit-picky that way[grin].

It is good to hear from you again, Kash.
Are you all settled from the move yet? Win that marathon?

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Mike — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:15:18 +0000

kash: “Well gee, Mike, you think everything that goes wrong including socks that lose their elasticity is because of our fiat currency system so no surprise there. And since the town is currently bankrupt over trying to pay pensions to individuals who worked for the city, I guess you think there should be no pensions because that would be Social Welfare.”

You know full well I never even implied any of the above. As I write the USDX is at 79.69 a solid break of support and a price point where there are alot of sell stops. I expect to see the dollar slide further as this little short term, antiEuro rally, is now over.

You know exactly what I mean by the Social Welfare state. I guess you have not bothered to link to any of the articles or videos I have provided that show where the real wealth transfer is taking place. The very people you so dearly love, the elderly and the poor are the very ones that are going to suffer as the system reaches its final destination, the bottom of the cliff.

But discussing the issue with you is useless, as you are a Statist Religious Zealot. You will continue to support the State even as your children, grandchildren, and neighbors suffer.

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kash — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:42:24 +0000

“kash, maybe Prichard, Ala problems are a direct result of US government policy made possible by our Fiat currency system and the Social Welfare state you embrace.” Well gee, Mike, you think everything that goes wrong including socks that lose their elasticity is because of our fiat currency system so no surprise there. And since the town is currently bankrupt over trying to pay pensions to individuals who worked for the city, I guess you think there should be no pensions because that would be Social Welfare. Problem solved. Except for the part where old people live in poverty and poor houses and die in the street, which is what happened back before pensions, social security, and medicare. But then, you think that would be Biblical.