How Do You Save a Dying Church?
Anybody home? A question that could be asked at many churches these days. In some parts of the United States, former churches are being converted into martial arts studios, restaurants and antique shops.
Why do churches die and what if anything can prevent it from happening?
Today’s guest has been hired to go in and close down a church ..or bring it back to life.
His name is Rev. Bill Baird, Pastor of Bethel United Methodist Church in Germanton, N.C. Bethel UMC had 199 members in 1996. Today there are about 40 with an average attendance of 14. Baird will either throw in the towel or wave the checkered flag… and he’s qualified to do the latter.
From 1977 to 1990 he was the NASCAR minister, recognized as racing’s chaplain. Prior to his NASCAR experience, Baird preached more than 350 church revivals, was featured on Billy Graham’s “The Hour of Decision”, The 700 Club, Good Morning America and People Magazine. You’ll hear his amazing story today.
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27 Comments on “How Do You Save a Dying Church?”
Are you familiar with the scottish revival? (1949) It was a revival within the church primarily, as a result of God’s sovereign move, and prayer alone. A dying church may be the place where this can happen, a place where the “methods” have failed. “Successful” churches may be blinded to the need for a real move from above.
Repentance was foundational.
What a wonderful opportunity, to build a church on Prayer, a total work of God! Dump the methods! Let the Holy Spirit bring them, not your worship team! He can do it, He is able. Young people might just be looking for substance, not style, when the Lord leads them to repentance.
I so admire your humility.
I firmly believe God is ready to move sovereignly, where hearts are awaiting Him.
I believe a revival is coming. Unfortunately a once Godly nation that depend on God and the Holy Bible has turn away from the Lord and decided that man alone could run things better. God warned Israel in Due.8: 10-20 what would happen should they forget the Lord their God that brought them into the promise land. God has richly blessed this nation, and now we have turned our back on Him. The current economic crisis is due to the very seed we have sown, and it is a very bitter seed indeed.
It is my prayer that Christians will lead this Second American Revolution. The First Revolution was born in the church and the goodness of America exists because of its Christian heritage. Christian leaders gave us the freest most prosperous nation the world has ever known. The Secular Leadership, of both political parties, have brought it to its knees. I no longer pray for our current leaders, I pray for a new leadership…..my prayers include a revival of Christianity in a nation that is dying. We either repent or we will suffer the same fate as both the Northern and Southern Kingdoms suffered over 2000 years ago.
That is so true.
It may be just something I am going through personally, but I do think we have lost sight of the holiness of God in contrast to our sinfullness. I know I am a person of “unclean lips”. Somehow I had become numb to that. But He has been moving in my heart towards that sense of deep need, after many years of being an active believer. Some of the false teaching recently has been very grieving. I am thinking of revival in the church, I think that is the area of greatest need. We have become so enamored with style and methods. I repent of that.
Welcome to TruthTalk Live, Lisa[smile]!
Always a pleasure to hear from someone new.
thank you for the welcome….
Why try to save something thats already dead? why not look in our hearts were JESUS lives.why not let him save the temple which HE dwells,The church house is dead because the people or dead.JESUS IS ALIVE…Wake up we are such lazy people.Go to church sunday after sunday,order of service all ready layed out,and we follow,just cripple brain wash,and we call this the HOLY SPIRT.Nothing but and outward formality denieing the power of GOD within us. The church dying.NO ITS BEEN DEAD.It took God himself to show me that i want save born again or feel with the Holy Ghost.This dying church has strayed away from the real GOSPEL.sinners or not coming to this today mordern church look to much like the world.I want to know one thing the way the church do it here on earth is this the way its going to be done in heaven.
Your welcome Lisa. Welcome Felton, you sound very…passionate.
Mike, it just may be that if true spiritual revival occurs in America, Americans might finally understand that a Christian nation is one that uplifts and glorifies Jesus and the Kingdom of Heaven, not the USA. Be careful what you wish for. A truly “Christian nation” would put others before itself. Why do you think God allowed Judah and Israel to fall? Because He was preparing to save the entire world, not just a specific kingdom in Palestine. Military might and wealth does not equal God’s favor…in fact, some times it equals the opposite. Just ask Nebuchadnezzer.
Kash: “a Christian nation is one that uplifts and glorifies Jesus and the Kingdom of Heaven, not the USA.”
Who said? Where did you get this from? A Christian nation is one that believes in Biblical principles but does not force those principles on others. While most of “Christian Europe” engaged in religious intollerance…..history of persecution of Jews, wars between Catholics and Protestants in various countrie, America established a system of religious freedom. It is this very reason why Jews immigrated to the US during the 18th, 19th, and 20th century. The oldest synagogue in the US was established in 1655, when coming to the New World involved great risk.
While Europe was established by Christian principles, many of its leaders used “their faith” as a political tool to subjugate enemies; therefore, you had Catholics killing protestants in France, the Inquisition, and religious civil wars in various nations.
Bottomline: America, even with all of its faults, was established primarily by Christians who used the Bible as much as any book to create the freest most prosperous nation the world has ever seen.
Over the past 2 generations, the nation has drifted far from its Christian roots and we have become a Secular run government that reflects more of Europe than the America of the past. In Deu.8:10-20, God warns Israel of the consequences of forgetting Him. All of documents, most of the speeches by past leaders, especially in times of crisis, and all of patriotic hymns reflect our faith and trust in the God of the Bible. Yet over the past generation, we have left the One that brought into the promise land, and now we are paying the price.
Revival across the land will solve many of our problems. Those that think I am calling for a theocracy just do not understand. I want the ideals that made this country great and gave us more freedom than any other people on earth back.
Kash:”Military might and wealth does not equal God’s favor…” No it is a sign of God’s favor. Solomon did not make Israel great during his reign, God did, and it was Israel’s sin that brought the nation down. That sin actually began when Israel demanded a king. God understood that in time the nation would come to depend solely on the King instead of His word. That is exactly what happened back then and that is exactly what is happening to America today. The people have become dependent on Government to solve their problems; i.e., poverty, retirement insurance, health care, education, housing, etc. The system is imploding because the nation turn away from God and His word and instead turn to man and his schemes.
The second American Revolution is here. The only question is, “Who will lead it?”
I need to clarify a point I made, “A Christian nation is one that believes in Biblical principles but does not force those principles on others. ” What I meant is that the laws of the land reflect the Christian worldview but enforce those laws evenly without consideration to a person’s religion, race, or sex; Justice is to be blind. It took us a while to get to this point but the ideals were all in the Constitution. Unfortunately what we gained in social justice was lost in other areas of life……Roe vs. Wade was the great abomination of all.
Mike: I couldn’t agree with you more(post#12), in fact in the word of God, God doesn’t force anyone to do his will, he just tells of the consequenses of not following what he has said. Our constitution is basically the same way, it was written by godly men with God’s law in mind, for liberty for all, not to force anyone to accept Christ. There is already a theocracy, God is already King over all of heaven and earth and yet he will let you make your own choices, he still won’t force himself on anyone.God’s law still stands and when it is contiually broken and his people don’t repent, judgment will come. Does this mean that God doesn’t love us anymore? of course he does, but remember God is equally a just God as he is a God of love. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Well said Paul. You are one of the few that gets it, because you have a COMPLETE Christian worldview. Most others have accepted the Traditions of Men and have therefore nullified God’s word. The Christians that fall into this category are the ones that believe in “A womans right to choose to kill her unborn child,” “those that believe it is morally right to take money from one group to give to another” and “those that believe man’s fiat money is better than what God gave us to use as money.”
What America is witnessing is God’s judgment on America.
Churches are dying and falling by the wayside for many reasons but primarily I believe it is because Christians have become complacent in their prayer lives and the area of discipleship. People are afraid of being called Jesus Freaks, and they are waiting on God to do something thinking nothing is required of them. Wake up O’ Sinner!! I too believe that a revival is coming soon, we need to be doing our part in prayer and witness.
Barefoot Thomas: “Churches are dying and falling by the wayside for many reasons but primarily I believe it is because Christians have become complacent in their prayer lives and the area of discipleship.”
Do you think that it may have something to do with the economy? Afterall unemployment (U6 is at 17%) is rising to Depression numbers. Given that many if not most churches carry a debt burden, when the congregation is struggling financially, they may not be able to pay their debt.
The Church I belong to is one of the most devoted churches to the work of God one could ever find. That said, our church decided 10 years ago that it needed more spac, the church was really growing, and financed a new building. Now we are seeing many that are losing their businesses and their homes in this economic down turn. Many that once supported ministries have now become dependent. One man in my Sunday school group always gave to the scholarship fund of the Christian school. Last year and this year he has had to ask for assistence.
The problem with “the Church” in America that it accepted the traditions of men and decided to by pass God and depend on Bank America, Wells Fargo, Citigroup, etc. to fund its needs (mostly expansion programs or updating equipment.) Christians can serve only one master and that is Christ. Yet the Bible tells us that the debtor is slave to the lender. Seems to me that in debted churches are serving two masters; therefore, the churches have gone against God’s word.
You are correct that we must repent, but we must know what we are repenting of. Sin is not limited to alcohol, sex, and violence; sin is not trusting God. We are to work for His glory, and He will reward us according to His riches. When we use credit to buy that car or bigger house, we are no longer dependent on God we are dependent on the Financial Institution that loaned us the money. In addition we are now unequally yoked, since the profits from our interest payments go to fund unGodly businesses, like liquor stores, bars, strip joints, porn shops, abortion clinics, etc.
If I have missed something tell me where I am wrong.
Bottomline: The United States of America, with all of its faults, was established by God who ordains all powers for his purposes in spite of Freemasons, deists and adulterous harlots who wrested the name of God for personal gain, exploited the poor and oppressed, rebelled against God’s very commandments in murdering the king’s servants, and defied his appointed authorities by violent force in direct contradiction to the orders given specifically to the church to honor and obey them, resulting in the Lord triumphing over their evil intentions in making his power and glory known unto all men though there be many of them that continue to wallow in the filth of their mammon worship.
Ben, just out of curiosity: Are there any other countries currently in existence that were established by God? Does the USA have more of a right to exist than any other country because it was established by God?
Kash: “Does the USA have more of a right to exist than any other country because it was established by God?”
No sure of your question, but no nation has a right to exist. Empire come and go with absolutely no connection to the God of the Bible. Most of the great empires self-destructed. They became so convinced that destiny had planned for their eternal rule at the height of the empire that it collapsed from internal decay.
The 19th Century belonged to Great Britian. The 20th century was the American Century. It now looks like the 21st Century will belong to China and the Asian block.
America’s decay began when it thought it could end poverty while expanding it military / economic influence throughout the world. It worked for a while, but we began that slippery slope downhill as we forgot our heritage; a heritage that was based on the word of God…the Bible.
Through the notion that a woman has the right to kill her unborn child….the most innocent and defenseless in our society….. we have wiped out a whole generation of Americans, half of which would be paying taxes and into social security and medicare.
We now have a large aging population that will consume much and produce little, with fewer younger people to take care of the elderly. Whatever happened to be fruitful and mulitply. Somehow having children became a curse and not a blessing.
We reap what we sow, and we have sown some bitter seed, and yet the statist in control cry out, “Trust us, we will make things right….the future is bright…. a new age is dawning for the nation.” All the despots that ever existed said the same thing. Our founding fathers gave us freedom and prosperity. We decided to speed up the process by printing money. It worked for a while. It always does, but in the end all the nation gets is poverty, misery, violence, and a breakdown of society. It’s coming….actually its here. The impoverishment has just begun. When inflation takes hold the misery index will climb and by then the folly of what we have done will become evident……at least to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Some will decide to remain blind, deft and dumb. These will be the minions that support the statists and call for even more government. Their faith will not be in God it will be in government. The very government that enslaves them. Christian, where will you stand?
This minister is in a difficult position that I know well from experience. Often when churches decline like that it’s because of some really unhealthy habits or traits they have. When they realize they’re dying they’re willling to to do something but at that point they’re too few and too old. At that point you’ve got to try to prevent them from thinking that they are a dying church and instead think of what ministries they can perform. About all I can say is to love them, preach the Gospel, and pray.
ABD: “Often when churches decline like that it’s because of some really unhealthy habits or traits they have. ”
I agree but would add that you will see more than just a few churches closing their doors in the years ahead. This time it will be due to the unhealthy habit, adopted from the world, called debt. Christians and churches that used debt to get the things they wanted, were totally out of God’s will and deep in sin. I’ve delt with this issue, which goes far beyone debt. It will be the churches inability to service debt that leads to collapse. A church is dependent on its congregation to meet its financial needs. As the congregations are impoverished in this the Greatest Depression, they will be unable to fund church ministries. Churches that support missionaries will be forced to bring the missionaries home as the falling dollar increases the cost of living for missionaries overseas, and lower revenues into the church make it more difficult for the church to support missions. Churches will at first cut back on ministries, and in the end many will shut their doors.
You stated, “Often when churches decline like that it’s because of some really unhealthy habits or traits they have.” No worse habit was to depend on Bank America, Wells Fargo, or JP Morgan instead of God to supply all our needs. By depending on man’s institutions churches have become unequally yoked and must serve 2 masters.
Anyone that believes we are at the end of the financial crisis does not have a clue. Christians that believe the government will eventually fix everything have their faith in the wrong place. Anyone that believes the US dollar will not be devalued over the next few years just does not understand or does not want to know the history of fiat currency….4000 years of history back up my claim that we are headed for hyperinflation and a severe depression.
Mike,
I agree wholeheartedly about debt with regard to churches today. Too many in an attempt to expand facilities- bigger sanctuaries, gyms, etc.- took out large loans and are now in serious financial trouble because so many are unemployed and hence are unable to pay what they would have wanted to. Debt is not a good habit for individuals and isn’t good for churches either. Regarding unhealthy habits, what I had in mind were other things though. Churches members can become hypercritical of newcomers and each other, they can adopt a fortress mentality in which their church is a museum to preserved at all costs, they can become very closed toward people who don’t dress or look like them. These things can ultimately turn a medium sized church into a very small one, or a very large one into a medium sized one, in just a few years time.
Best Wishes
The counsel of the scriptures is that all nations, rulers and powers are established by God. This includes the USA as well as ancient Egypt, Israel (and Judah), Babylon and Rome. The men established by God as his appointed authorities are not necessarily approved of him. Oftena nd repeatedly they do that which is wicked in the sight of the Lord. Nevertheless, the providence of God stands whether men obey or disobey.
My point was that the USA was, like all nations, established by God but not by the church. I am sure that God willed the independence of the Americas from the empires of Europe — but you can be sure that it was not his will for the church to accomplish this. The scriptures clearly and emphatically require submission and obedience to the King as God’s appointed governing authority and terror to evil. But George Washington, Benjamin Franklin et. all were murderous traitors. The perpetrators of the American Revolution were not godly, but treacherous. There is no Christian justification for it and there is no virtue or merit in it to return to. I rebuke the pretense that these men were Christian or godly. The very thing they are remembered most for was a total disregard for the commandments of God. They slaughtered British subjects and incited other men to kill their neighbors.
These men did not follow God’s commandments to his church. They took matters into their own hands and violated the very commandments of God to his Church in the scriptures. They did not suffer reproach for the name of Christ, they killed their oppressors. They were ashamed to suffer as Christians, and so suffer as murderers and evildoers. They did not esteem the reproach of Christ, but refused to endure grief for conscience toward God or to suffer wrongfully. Instead, they massacred the servants of their tyrant and robbed God of his glory which should have shone forth in them were they indeed Christ’s. It was not the church of God, those saints and believers in Christ who did this thing. It was done by self-interested men acting contrary to the commandments of God to Christ’s followers. It cannot be justified then anymore than it could be justified again today. There is no Christian virtue in such treachery and these men should not be regarded as examples of such.
ADB: “Regarding unhealthy habits, what I had in mind were other things though. Churches members can become hypercritical of newcomers and each other, they can adopt a fortress mentality in which their church is a museum to preserved at all costs, they can become very closed toward people who don’t dress or look like them.”
Can’t argue with you there. What I have found rather interestesting since I accepted Christ 15 years ago at the ripe old age of 49, is that one of the few areas of sin that is never mentioned by preachers (I attend all three services at my church and have gone to the annual prayer advance and listen to Christian radio so I have had numerous opportunities) has to do with the issue of gluttony. I’ve heard several dozen on glutton, lustful thoughts about the opposite sex, homosexuality (mentioned constantly), sinful anger, covetousness, even idolotry, but never one on gluttony.
I can see why this particular sin, mentioned several times in the Bible, is so tough to bring out into the open. Everyone engaged in this sin cannot hid it. I believe there are more overweight preachers than those within normal weight. Food for too many Christians has become their idol. The satisfication many get from eating should be the satisfaction we get from our relationship with God.
The issue of debt is another. While I’ve heard debt condemned as something to avoid, I’ve never heard it spoken of as sin and while not in the 10 Commandments, it is sin as we use it to satisfy our WANTS instead of delaying gratification and saving for those things while depending on the Lord to provide us the opportunity. Debt is so important because all of the money that comes into existence comes through debt. The US dollar is a debt instrument. It is backed by nothing and so it is a fraud. Fiat money is Satan’s way of mimicking what God provided to use as money, namely gold and silver. Christians are blind, deaf, and dumb to the whole issue of money. Fewer yet are willing to believe that in their life time they will see God bring the whole system down, along with the US economy. The riches He has blessed us with are being lost….squandered by a people that have forgotten the Lord their God. IF we had followed Biblical principles regarding economics, the US would not be in the fix it is in. Get ready for the next 3 to 5 years. 2010 is going to be worse than 2009. 2011 will be worse than 2010. By 2014, it is my prayer that we will have awoken to what we have done and begin to return to Biblical principles. It is the only hope this nation has.
Correction, when I wrote, “I’ve heard several dozen on glutton, lustful thoughts about the opposite sex….” I meant to say, “I’ve heard several dozen on alcoholism……”
I am pastor Nahum A Khawar Founder and Chairman Prayer fellow ship ministry of Pakistan.my WebSite: http://www.pfministry.org
I want make a church in Pakistan,So Pray and Finishly help me in Church Counteraction ………………… for he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment…….what doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?…….if a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,….. and one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filld; notwithstanding ye ye give them not those things which are needful toothe body; what doth it profit?………….even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone…………….. and he said unto them, which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, friend, lend me three loaves;….. for a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and i have nothing to det before him?…… and he from within shall answer and say trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; i cannot rise and give thee……….. i say unto you, though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth….you are borther of the god of lord and welcome to pakistan….
Your Brother in Christ
Pastor Nahum Khawar
From Paksitan
P.O Box 5122 Model Town Lahore,Pakistan