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	<description>Today’s Issues, From a Biblical Perspective!</description>
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		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28349</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 01:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28349</guid>
		<description>Eloquent and touching, MattF. 
The feelings are mutual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eloquent and touching, MattF.<br />
The feelings are mutual.</p>
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		<title>Buy Online, No RX (Prescription) Required! &raquo; Buy Lumigan Without Prescription</title>
		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28345</link>
		<dc:creator>MattF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28345</guid>
		<description>John: &lt;i&gt;Oh I agree, and it IS useful and thought provoking, it’s just…easy for the misanthrope in me to imagine that the implications of your comments/observations about this program will be lost or unappreciated by many of the people who are reading them here.&lt;/i&gt;

You know, John, there are times when I envy you.  The pagans I know are, to a man, considerate, intelligent, and curious people.  By contrast, if you show &lt;b&gt;too much&lt;/b&gt; curiosity in some Christian circles, you are told that your faith is compromised and dangerous at best and counterfeit at worst.  The benefit of having your faith &quot;codified&quot; is that there is a strong sense of your faith in history when it sinks in that your thoughts, as you read the words, parallel in some sense the thoughts people have had reading them for thousands of years; the disadvantage is that people seem generally unwilling to struggle to understand what they&#039;ve read.

I&#039;d give certain sensitive portions of my anatomy to be able to discuss the significance of my faith with someone who, like me, is trying to find answers; someone who&#039;s trying to find out what&#039;s true, open to the adventure of exploring this amazing Universe.

Thank you for continuing to post and share here, John, in spite of the terrible inertia of beliefs against you.  In your own way, you give me hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John: <i>Oh I agree, and it IS useful and thought provoking, it’s just…easy for the misanthrope in me to imagine that the implications of your comments/observations about this program will be lost or unappreciated by many of the people who are reading them here.</i></p>
<p>You know, John, there are times when I envy you.  The pagans I know are, to a man, considerate, intelligent, and curious people.  By contrast, if you show <b>too much</b> curiosity in some Christian circles, you are told that your faith is compromised and dangerous at best and counterfeit at worst.  The benefit of having your faith &#8220;codified&#8221; is that there is a strong sense of your faith in history when it sinks in that your thoughts, as you read the words, parallel in some sense the thoughts people have had reading them for thousands of years; the disadvantage is that people seem generally unwilling to struggle to understand what they&#8217;ve read.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d give certain sensitive portions of my anatomy to be able to discuss the significance of my faith with someone who, like me, is trying to find answers; someone who&#8217;s trying to find out what&#8217;s true, open to the adventure of exploring this amazing Universe.</p>
<p>Thank you for continuing to post and share here, John, in spite of the terrible inertia of beliefs against you.  In your own way, you give me hope.</p>
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		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28334</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28334</guid>
		<description>Oh I agree, and it IS useful and thought provoking, it&#039;s just...easy for the misanthrope in me to imagine that the implications of your comments/observations about this program will be lost or unappreciated by many of the people who are reading them here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh I agree, and it IS useful and thought provoking, it&#8217;s just&#8230;easy for the misanthrope in me to imagine that the implications of your comments/observations about this program will be lost or unappreciated by many of the people who are reading them here.</p>
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		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28332</link>
		<dc:creator>MattF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28332</guid>
		<description>John: &lt;i&gt;Amazing as it may be MattF., you can almost hear the anti-evolutionists that are reading your post thinking to themselves “Yeah, but that’s just a game, it’s not real, just a fantasy for evolutionists, and it was CREATED by an “intelligent designer”, so….[smirk].”&lt;/i&gt;

Well, of course it&#039;s not &quot;real&quot;, any more than watching planets orbit in a software orrery is &quot;real&quot;.  It&#039;s a visualization of abstract concepts that produces behavior that appears very similar to that of the &quot;real&quot; Universe in very salient respects.

The code that makes Critterding go is available for free download, too.  There&#039;s no code for &quot;scooting&quot;, no code for twirling, no code for directing changes in the population (other than the simple fact that the changes that are duplicated tend to permeate the population after a while), and no code for running as soon as you&#039;re born.  All of these behaviors fall out of a simple description of &quot;natural selection&quot; of completely random bodies and behaviors.

The fact that the rules of this program, the computer, and the programming language were created by an &quot;intelligent designer&quot; is no more of a point (or less of one) than that an &quot;intelligent designer&quot; created the rules for a software orrery.  In neither case do I believe that these computer models imply that God simply made these things and stepped back, nor that He acts or acted merely as lawgiver, superintendent, or referee.

I do think both computer models curious in that they usefully show how seemingly intricate individual cases can be modeled with much simpler descriptions.  (Frankly, if you believe as I do that God is behind &lt;b&gt;everything&lt;/b&gt;, God creating the Universe this way allows man to see His faithfulness.  We can see things behave so reliably that we can break all of our observations -- and, ideally, all &lt;b&gt;possible&lt;/b&gt; observations -- down into a simple, general description, and continue to test and refine our explanation against the regular behavior of the Universe.  If God were not as faithful as He is, such methodical testing of the Universe would not reveal consistent patterns to our empirical inquiries, and experiment would not be able to reliably separate good ideas from bad; in short, without the faithfulness of God, science would not even be &lt;b&gt;possible&lt;/b&gt;.  This idea will elude you completely if you believe that God&#039;s most remarkable activities are seen when He bends or breaks the rules.  But I digress.)  It&#039;s curious in light of them that there are so many who simply declare by fiat that -- when it comes to biology, at least -- they cannot.

It&#039;s obvious, of course, that not all computer models parallel reality.  But it&#039;s especially interesting when we put in rules we think we observe, and the results of the computations show behavior that looks &quot;realistic&quot;.  If we put in rules that simply do not operate in the real world, there should be a reason why the results look like the real world other than &quot;there was a programmer&quot;.  To cut off the analysis at this point is to ignore the fact that we are capable of analyzing methods of analysis, and coming up with plausible, testable reasons why consistently similar outcomes appear similar.

God gave us the opposable thumbs and the ability to reason abstractly; we are also told that we are made in His image.  Refusal to use either gift -- to work or to think -- is tantamount to blasphemy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John: <i>Amazing as it may be MattF., you can almost hear the anti-evolutionists that are reading your post thinking to themselves “Yeah, but that’s just a game, it’s not real, just a fantasy for evolutionists, and it was CREATED by an “intelligent designer”, so….[smirk].”</i></p>
<p>Well, of course it&#8217;s not &#8220;real&#8221;, any more than watching planets orbit in a software orrery is &#8220;real&#8221;.  It&#8217;s a visualization of abstract concepts that produces behavior that appears very similar to that of the &#8220;real&#8221; Universe in very salient respects.</p>
<p>The code that makes Critterding go is available for free download, too.  There&#8217;s no code for &#8220;scooting&#8221;, no code for twirling, no code for directing changes in the population (other than the simple fact that the changes that are duplicated tend to permeate the population after a while), and no code for running as soon as you&#8217;re born.  All of these behaviors fall out of a simple description of &#8220;natural selection&#8221; of completely random bodies and behaviors.</p>
<p>The fact that the rules of this program, the computer, and the programming language were created by an &#8220;intelligent designer&#8221; is no more of a point (or less of one) than that an &#8220;intelligent designer&#8221; created the rules for a software orrery.  In neither case do I believe that these computer models imply that God simply made these things and stepped back, nor that He acts or acted merely as lawgiver, superintendent, or referee.</p>
<p>I do think both computer models curious in that they usefully show how seemingly intricate individual cases can be modeled with much simpler descriptions.  (Frankly, if you believe as I do that God is behind <b>everything</b>, God creating the Universe this way allows man to see His faithfulness.  We can see things behave so reliably that we can break all of our observations &#8212; and, ideally, all <b>possible</b> observations &#8212; down into a simple, general description, and continue to test and refine our explanation against the regular behavior of the Universe.  If God were not as faithful as He is, such methodical testing of the Universe would not reveal consistent patterns to our empirical inquiries, and experiment would not be able to reliably separate good ideas from bad; in short, without the faithfulness of God, science would not even be <b>possible</b>.  This idea will elude you completely if you believe that God&#8217;s most remarkable activities are seen when He bends or breaks the rules.  But I digress.)  It&#8217;s curious in light of them that there are so many who simply declare by fiat that &#8212; when it comes to biology, at least &#8212; they cannot.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s obvious, of course, that not all computer models parallel reality.  But it&#8217;s especially interesting when we put in rules we think we observe, and the results of the computations show behavior that looks &#8220;realistic&#8221;.  If we put in rules that simply do not operate in the real world, there should be a reason why the results look like the real world other than &#8220;there was a programmer&#8221;.  To cut off the analysis at this point is to ignore the fact that we are capable of analyzing methods of analysis, and coming up with plausible, testable reasons why consistently similar outcomes appear similar.</p>
<p>God gave us the opposable thumbs and the ability to reason abstractly; we are also told that we are made in His image.  Refusal to use either gift &#8212; to work or to think &#8212; is tantamount to blasphemy.</p>
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		<title>Buy Online, No RX (Prescription) Required! &raquo; Buy Lumigan Without Prescription</title>
		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28330</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28330</guid>
		<description>Amazing as it may be MattF., you can almost hear the anti-evolutionists that are reading your post thinking to themselves &quot;Yeah, but that&#039;s just a game, it&#039;s not real, just a fantasy for evolutionists, and it was CREATED by an &quot;intelligent designer&quot;, so....[smirk].&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing as it may be MattF., you can almost hear the anti-evolutionists that are reading your post thinking to themselves &#8220;Yeah, but that&#8217;s just a game, it&#8217;s not real, just a fantasy for evolutionists, and it was CREATED by an &#8220;intelligent designer&#8221;, so&#8230;.[smirk].&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Buy Online, No RX (Prescription) Required! &raquo; Buy Lumigan Without Prescription</title>
		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28329</link>
		<dc:creator>MattF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28329</guid>
		<description>Well, it seems like some of the Whifferdills have figured out how to scoot along in a wormlike fashion.  They can actively go out and search for food, though not very fast or very far.  Selection seems to be making these new organisms, which I call &quot;Dealers&quot; (because they shuffle -- get it?), with fewer body segments and very large eyes (so they can see dinner from far away).  Their heads are also more atop their bodies (on a very flexible hinge) and can no longer be &quot;tucked into&quot; their bodies.

The curious thing is that they have retained vestiges of their Whifferdill behavior.  You can tell when a Dealer first spies food because the first thing it does (before starting to crawl over to it) is &lt;b&gt;raise its head&lt;/b&gt;.  It has no reason to do this (other than the fact that this behavior upon spying food helped it as a Whifferdill), and in fact costs it precious energy.  (When an organism&#039;s energy falls to zero, it &quot;dies&quot;; motion and reproduction cost a lot.)  They also search for food by spinning (rather than, say, swaying to and fro, or scooting and searching, or what have you).

An offshoot from the main Dealer lineage has developed a taste for animals, not just the food scattered about the Petri dish.  I note that when they reproduce, the new one tries to shuffle away as fast as it can.  Sadly, Dealers eating their young is not uncommon.

Now, when was the first Dealer?  That&#039;s actually a curious question.  The ability to scoot along didn&#039;t happen all at once.  There were stages where all they could do was stretch from a base.  There are a small number of creatures that don&#039;t clearly seem to be one or the other.  Still, I expect that the Whifferdills -- if they survive -- and the Dealers will grow more and more distinct over time until telling which is which becomes trivial for all organisms in the dish.

Seriously, this program is amazing.  And they just issued a new beta (number 11).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it seems like some of the Whifferdills have figured out how to scoot along in a wormlike fashion.  They can actively go out and search for food, though not very fast or very far.  Selection seems to be making these new organisms, which I call &#8220;Dealers&#8221; (because they shuffle &#8212; get it?), with fewer body segments and very large eyes (so they can see dinner from far away).  Their heads are also more atop their bodies (on a very flexible hinge) and can no longer be &#8220;tucked into&#8221; their bodies.</p>
<p>The curious thing is that they have retained vestiges of their Whifferdill behavior.  You can tell when a Dealer first spies food because the first thing it does (before starting to crawl over to it) is <b>raise its head</b>.  It has no reason to do this (other than the fact that this behavior upon spying food helped it as a Whifferdill), and in fact costs it precious energy.  (When an organism&#8217;s energy falls to zero, it &#8220;dies&#8221;; motion and reproduction cost a lot.)  They also search for food by spinning (rather than, say, swaying to and fro, or scooting and searching, or what have you).</p>
<p>An offshoot from the main Dealer lineage has developed a taste for animals, not just the food scattered about the Petri dish.  I note that when they reproduce, the new one tries to shuffle away as fast as it can.  Sadly, Dealers eating their young is not uncommon.</p>
<p>Now, when was the first Dealer?  That&#8217;s actually a curious question.  The ability to scoot along didn&#8217;t happen all at once.  There were stages where all they could do was stretch from a base.  There are a small number of creatures that don&#8217;t clearly seem to be one or the other.  Still, I expect that the Whifferdills &#8212; if they survive &#8212; and the Dealers will grow more and more distinct over time until telling which is which becomes trivial for all organisms in the dish.</p>
<p>Seriously, this program is amazing.  And they just issued a new beta (number 11).</p>
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		<title>Buy Online, No RX (Prescription) Required! &raquo; Buy Lumigan Without Prescription</title>
		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28311</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28311</guid>
		<description>Why, your very welcome MattF.[ smile as warm as the summer Sun at high noon].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why, your very welcome MattF.[ smile as warm as the summer Sun at high noon].</p>
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		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28299</link>
		<dc:creator>MattF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28299</guid>
		<description>MattF: &lt;i&gt;[...] and relevant observations or discoveries shown to be inconsistent with the process would absolutely.&lt;/i&gt;

Whoops.  Make that &quot;absolutely show that the posited process is &lt;b&gt;wrong&lt;/b&gt;.&quot;

Thank you for your considerate words, John and Kash.  I wish I knew what to say in return that wouldn&#039;t sound forced or trite.  Your kindness helped to heal a hard couple of weeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MattF: <i>[...] and relevant observations or discoveries shown to be inconsistent with the process would absolutely.</i></p>
<p>Whoops.  Make that &#8220;absolutely show that the posited process is <b>wrong</b>.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thank you for your considerate words, John and Kash.  I wish I knew what to say in return that wouldn&#8217;t sound forced or trite.  Your kindness helped to heal a hard couple of weeks.</p>
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		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28287</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28287</guid>
		<description>Yeah.
I think of myself as having the patience of a python Kash, but unless it&#039;s with a completely new poster on the topic, I&#039;ve given up trying to be patient with people like Bob Griffin or Maz when debating on this subject if anything because of the fact that they keep making the same mistakes over and over no matter how many times or different ways one tries to get through to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah.<br />
I think of myself as having the patience of a python Kash, but unless it&#8217;s with a completely new poster on the topic, I&#8217;ve given up trying to be patient with people like Bob Griffin or Maz when debating on this subject if anything because of the fact that they keep making the same mistakes over and over no matter how many times or different ways one tries to get through to them.</p>
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		<link>http://www.truthtalklive.com/2009/10/09/can-a-person-be-saved-and-still-believe-in-evolution/#comment-28283</link>
		<dc:creator>Kash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.truthtalklive.com/?p=3293#comment-28283</guid>
		<description>I respect MattF&#039;s patience.  I long ago gave up several lines of debate on this site as equivalent to beating my head repeatedly against a brick wall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I respect MattF&#8217;s patience.  I long ago gave up several lines of debate on this site as equivalent to beating my head repeatedly against a brick wall.</p>
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