Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Posted by truthtalklive on 25 August, 2009
Been watching your retirement savings disappear?
What’s a Christian to do in these turbulent economic times?
On today’s show, Stu welcomes Dan Celia with the Regency Foundation www.regencyfoundation.org.
The Regency Foundation, an affiliate and support organization of Philadelphia Biblical University www.pbu.edu exists to help individuals and organizations plan, invest and give wisely.
Stay connected!
52 Comments on “Whose Money Is It Anyway?”
This one should be a good show. I wonder what these pros have to say about gold….not as an investment but as an insurance policy against a currency devaluation.
Stu, I’m sorry to say this but your guest does not have clue as to what I was talking about. I suggest he and anyone interested go to Pastor Doug Tjaden’s website at http://www.traditionsofmen.org and check out what he has to say. I am going to paste something I wrote a while back.
PART 1:
Have God’s people Adopted Worldly values? Are we in habitual sin.
It is NOT “THE LOVE OF MONEY.” IT IS THE LOVE OF STUFF. Jesus warns us not to be of the world. He condemns the Pharisees for their love of traditions thus nullifying God’s law. We are told repeatedly how to behave as Christians, and yet we have adopted the Traditions of Men, in this case the world system, and in doing so have become unequally yoked and no longer a complete servant of our Lord.
Here is what scripture says.
1. The borrower is slave to the lender (no exceptions). Rom.13:8 Prov.22:7
2. We (Christians) have been bought with a price, the blood of Christ. 1Cor.6: 19, 20
3. We are to be servants of the one who purchased us. 1Cor.7: 23
4. We are to work for HIS glory and HE will reward us according to HIS wisdom. We are to depend on the Lord for all our blessings.
5. God hates (an abomination) diverse weights and measures (mentioned at least 4 different times in the OT.) Prov. 20:10, 23; 11:1; 16:11; Deu.25: 13-25; Lev.19: 35-37
6. We reap what we sow. God is not mocked. Gal. 6:7
7. The righteous will suffer with the unrighteous.
8. For everything there is a season and one should read the signs of the season and prepare. So in the season of plenty we should save up for the lean years, like Joseph told Egypt to do. There is nothing new under the sun; what is today has been and what will be has already taken place (man does not learn and that is why history repeats….it is the cycles some economist speak of.) Ecc.1:9-11; 3: 1-9 Include Ecc. 1-3
9. The prudent man sees the evil and prepares while the simple or blind get punished. Prov.22:3
10. You cannot serve God and mammon (the world and worldly things). You cannot serve 2 masters for you will love one and hate the other. Matt.6:24; Luke 16:13
11. We are not to be unequally yoked. 2 Cor.6:14
12. We are not to have other gods before the Lord. We are not to make idols of anything. Exodus 20:3, 4
So here is what many, Christians have done with Gods word. FIRST and FOREMOST let me start with this statement:
We Christians have used credit to attain the things we want. This includes the church, as most are in debt paying for new buildings or expansions. I have no statistics on the above statements, but believe I am accurate in what I am saying. Even the most conservative Christians borrow from the bank to buy automobiles and homes. SO MOST BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN CHURCHES AND MOST CHRISTIANS HAVE VIOLATED OR IGNORED GOD’S WORD REGARDING CREDIT AND DEBT.
PART 2:
BY BORROWING MONEY….USING CREDIT
1. we no longer depend on the Lord for our blessings, instead we depend on Bank America to meet our needs / desires. Violates #4
2. through debt we are unequally yoked. The money the bank makes off our interest payments is borrowed by people starting business that may be unholy like porn shops, strip joints, liquor stores, etc. Violates #11
3. by going into debt we can not serve the Lord totally for we are now slaves to the lender. God tells us that we cannot serve two masters for we will love one and hate the other. QUESTION: How many Christians are now in a bind because they are having difficulty paying bills (credit cards, bigger house, new / fancy cars) while the church asks for tithes and offerings. Violates #1,2,3,4, 10, 11, 12
4. we been have bought into the notion that our currency is money, when it is a debt obligation. I have discussed this with numerous Christians, and I would say that the vast majority refuse to believe that the US dollar (any fiat currency) is a wicked system, devised by men to rob the many of their hard earned wages. The Bible is ever so clear on the issue of diverse weights and measures and “both alike are an abomination to the Lord.” Violates #5
5. we depend on the accumulation of stuff for our sense of well being or success. The new van, bigger house, new bass boat, dinners out, etc. can easily become our idol…our new god, but just as the pagan gods ruined Israel, these new gods have ruined God’s people. I am not saying that we should not have the new car, bigger home, bass boat, etc. I am saying that we should pay cash for it, and never withhold money to pay for them. The desire for stuff (bigger house, new car, fancy vacations, etc.) can lead to the sins of “lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.” Violates # 12 plus numerous other scriptural verses.
THEREFORE GOD IS BRINGING THE WHOLE SYSTEM DOWN, especially the evil monetary system. God, in his infinite mercy and wisdom gives us an escape from the coming collapse of our money. First of all we must REPENT. We must pay off debt and no longer rely on the money lenders. We must build a financial ark like Noah did to protect us from the coming storm. Part of that ark is to exchange MAN’S MONEY for GOD’S MONEY (gold and silver.) Adhere to # 9
PART 3:
When I talk to Christians I usually get one of two responses:
1. The signs are all there, Jesus is coming back (most are referring to the rapture.) When I tell them that even if it were so, Jesus told us not to try to guess his coming. We are to be ready by our continued labor of love for the Lord. Acts
2. God is in control therefore there is no need to worry or do anything. My response is, “I did not know God was our cosmic servant, besides God does not reward those that have been out of HIS will and we have been out of His will. Also consider that the Bible says that the righteous will suffer with the unrighteous.” Violates # 6, 7, 9,
Jesus tells us to be salt and light. How can we be either if we adopt the traditions of the world and ignore part of God’s word. Anyone that trust a fiat currency (the USD or the British Pound Sterling) is trusting in the goodness of man, and we know what God has to say about our good nature and inborn righteousness. God’s judgment on the nation will punish all including the righteous.
When it comes to behavior on this issue, I believe most Christians are no different than the average Joe Six Pack that lives in the world.
At the core of nearly all our economic problems today is the Federal Reserve, a wicked ungodly institution if ever there was one. Our fiat monetary system, by its very existence, is evil. Like a pornographic picture, our money is inherently evil, there is nothing good about it.
Gold and silver were placed on this earth by God. Ex.2: 11 As part of His creation they are inherently good, not evil. Man has used them for evil purposes but they themselves are not evil, unlike fiat money. Whenever man has been free to benefit from the fruits of his labor and gold and silver were used as the monetary base, nations and people have prospered.
Whenever man has debased money, either by coin clipping or adding base metals to coins or by establishing fiat money, the initial economic response has been prosperity, but the prosperity is short lived and in the end the results have been economic ruin, poverty, civil unrest, and the destruction of the life savings of the people.
Conclusion:
The world tells us that having stuff is the sign of success. We have come to believe that debt is not only necessary but desirable. How else can we buy a home or a new car without going into debt. Besides we must build up our credit by first going into debt. All this is what the world says not what the Bible says. At the core of all this is a monetary system that steals from people and enslaves them.
We should adhere to Psalm 31, especially verse 3.
1. In thee O Lord, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in they righteousness.
2. Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defense to save me.
3. For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name’s sake lead me, and guide me.
4. Pull me out of the net that they have laid privily for me: for thou art my strength.
Gold and silver are part of God’s creation. Gold and silver are therefore good. God, in his word even says so, see Gen.2. He even tells us where to find it. Gold and silver were put on this earth to function as money.
OUR DOLLAR TODAY IS BACKED BY NOTHING AND CAN BE PRINTED WITHOUT LIMIT. It is a diverse measure which God considers an abomination. Do you hear me Christian; AN ABOMINATION.
So go ahead and put your faith in man’s money. I am not saying that one should hoard and not give to the church, but hyperinflation impoverishes the citizens of a nation. Gold and silver are their insurance policy against a government that is out of control. When you have been impoverished and when the US dollar goes into the tank who will be there to support the missions of the Church.
We should support the Church with our money but we must also save some. We must protect our family and provide for them. This is the job of all Christian men.
Sorry Stu but your guest today does not have a clue. He has bought into the traditions of the world and does not know his scripture.
Well Mike, you are in your element again! You have this thread all to yourself! Preach it brother!
But please don’t forget, ”My GOD (not gold) shall supply ALL my needs ACCORDING TO HIS RICHES in Glory by Christ Jesus.”
You can respond, (as I know you will) but I shall not get into debate with you over gold as we have been down that path, and I did watch your video link, so…….keep storing up your treasure on earth!
The Critics of Capitalism
This conclusion has not satisfied many generations of critics
of free market capitalism. They begin as Smith did, by asking
the same question: What are the policies of civil government
that lead to greater wealth in society? They conclude something
entirely different additional government controls over the
economy. They blame poverty on capitalism’s policy of placing
ownership in the hands of individuals and then leaving them
free to buy and sell from each other. Some critics of capitalism
call for a return to a version of mercantilism: controls over the
terms of trade. National socialism (Nazism) and Fascism are
examples of this type of thinking: the “corporate state” which
proclaims the “partnership between business and government.”
Other critics call for full socialism: the State’s ownership of the
means of production. Still others call for a reform in the monetary
system.
This is not to say that anyone and everyone who calls for a
reform of the monetary system is necessarily a hostile critic of
free market capitalism. Some are, some aren’t. Marx surely was.
In the Communist Manifesto (1848), Marx and Engels recommended
“Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by
means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive
monopoly” This was point five in their ten-point program to replace capitalism with socialism.
To evaluate the wisdom of any reformer’s proposals, we
need a standard. I have declared that this standard
must be the Bible. The Biblical View of Wealth
The Bible begins with the doctrine of creation: God created
the world (Genesis 1). This means that everything that mankind
possesses is a gift of God. Christianity calls such gifts grace. So,
each person begins life as an heir of the grace of God, what is
sometimes called common grace. Jesus said of God the Father in
heaven: “He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the
good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matthew
5:45b). Men do not earn these blessings.
Ownership-Stewardship
God gave to Adam and Eve the ownership of the world:
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and
over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the
earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of
God created he him; male and female created he them. And
God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and
multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have Scarcity. What do we mean by the word “scarcity”? Biblically, scarcity
means that nature, which had not thwarted mankind before the
curse, now thwarts the entire human race. Men must sweat in
order to obtain what they want. That is, they must suffer unpleasantness
in order to gain benefits. While air conditioning
has reduced the burden of sweating for modern workers in
wealthy societies, people now “sweat” internally. They suffer
stress. They get ulcers. There is no escape in history from the
curse on man’s labor.
The economist offers a different definition of scarcity “At
zero price there is greater demand for something than there is
available supply to meet all the demand.” Thus, men must
make bids in order to obtain a scarce resource. They enter a
kind of auction. They must give up one scarce good or service
in order to obtain another good or service. So, the economist
describes the effect of scarcity. The Bible tells us why we face
scarcity.
The earth was cursed by God because Adam was cursed. The
earth was like a military man whose commanding officer rebels,
fights the wrong battle, and gets everyone killed, wounded, or
captured. Nature suffered a penalty because of the rebellion of
man.
I have said that there is no full escape from the curse on the
ground in history, but this does not mean that there cannot be
a progressive reduction in scarcity and its oppressive effects.
Economic growth is proof of this. A very good definition of
economic growth is this one: “An increase in the number of our
options.” We have more choices because we can afford more
choices.
The Bible teaches that as we progressively obey God and
overcome our sin and rebellion, He will reward us with greater
external blessings. We read of this promise in the Book of
Deuteronomy, chapter 28, verses 1-14. On the other hand, if
we disobey, we will be cursed: Deuteronomy 28:15-69. So, the Bible teaches, our external prosperity is related to our external
obedience to God’s law.
The Grace of God
How can we obey God? Only through God’s grace. The
Bible is very clear about this: grace always precedes obedience. We
do not earn our way into heaven. We do not earn God’s favor.
God graciously grants us saving faith, and He also grants us
opportunities to obey him by performing good works: “For by
grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it
is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For
we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good
works, which God bath before ordained that we should walk in
them” (Ephesians 2:8-10). In short, the Bible teaches that grace
precedes obedience. We are always in debt to God. We are
always paying off our obligations to Him.
The only reason we are granted the grace to continue to pay
is because Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died on the cross in
order to pay God full price for our sins. “But God commendeth
his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us” (Romans 5:8). “For the wages of sin is death; but
the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”
(Romans 6:23).
This means that while there can be no full escape in history
from the painful effects of the curse on us and on the earth,
there can and should be a progressive escape horn the most
burdensome of these curses: Why is it impossible to escape
fully from the curse of God in history? Because there cannot be
moral perfection in history, other than the moral perfection of
Jesus Christ. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us” (I John 1:8).
Nevertheless, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”
(I John 1:9). This is why there is legitimate hope for the
future. This is why there is economic growth. But we have been
warned not to enjoy the gifts of God – grace – and then forget
the Giver. Beware, God warns, that “thou say in thine heart,
My power and the might of mine hand bath gotten me this
wealth. But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he
that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his
covenant which he swore unto thy fathers, as it is this day” (Deuteronomy 8:17-18). The Biblical View of Money
The Bible offers considerable information about how money
functions in a society, and also about how monetary policy
should be conducted. The most famous statement in the Bible
about money is Paul’s warning: “For the love of money is the
root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred
from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many
sorrows” (1 Timothy 6:10).
Why should the love of money be the root of all evil? Why
not the love of something else? Because money is the representative
example of all the earth’s goods. Money is the representative
example because money is the most marketable commodity the
material good which money-loving people imagine can buy all
the other desirable things in this world. It can legitimately be
regarded as the economic incarnation of the world’s goods.
Money is the incarnation of wealth.
Gold and Silver
Gold and silver have functioned as money in history. So
have other commodities. Economists usually identify the following
features of those commodities that have historically functioned
as money recognizability, divisibility, durability, transportability,
and high value in relation to weight. Wealth is equated in the Bible with silver and gold: “And
Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold” (Genesis
13:2). Anyone who claims to believe in the Bible and who also
refuses to acknowledge that money is a form of wealth has to
conclude that gold and silver can never be money. But the
Bible makes it clear that gold and silver have functioned as
money, from the days of the &mine in Egypt through Christ’s
payment of taxes: the coin inside the fish (Matthew 17:27).
The Bible does not teach that money must always be gold or
silver. The Bible does not specify any commodity that should
always be money. That is, the Bible does not identify “true
money.” This means that whatever people decide they want to
use as money is legitimate, so long as the biblical law against
counterfeiting is obeyed.
What the Bible does teach is that righteousness is analogous
to the precious metals: silver and gold. For God’s people, righteousness
and wisdom should be more desirable than silver or
gold, but silver and gold are thereby identified as among mankind’s
most desirable goods.
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace
of earth, purified seven times (Psalm 12:6).
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments
of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired
are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also
than honey and the honeycomb (Psalms 19:9-10).
For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is
tried (Psalm 66: 10).
The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold
and silver (Psalm 119:72).
Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine
gold (Psalm 119: 127). Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and
my revenue than choice silver. I lead in the way of righteousness,
in the midst of the paths of judgment: That I may cause
those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures
(Proverbs 8:18-2 1).
The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked
is little worth (Proverbs 10:20).
How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding
rather to be chosen than silver! (Proverbs 16:16).
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver
(Proverbs 25: 11).
Historically, individuals have chosen gold and silver as money.
These metals are rare. They are expensive to mine. They
are attractive physically. Coins of pure or nearly pure gold or
silver cannot be mass produced. This controls the money supply.
One of the attributes of money is high value in relation to
weight. Gold and silver possess this attribute.
False Mixtures, False Weights
The Bible identifies debasement as an evil: “Thy silver is
become dross, thy wine mixed with water” (Isaiah 1:22). Isaiah
equated the mixing of dross (cheap) metals with silver and then
calling the finished product silver as a form of moral debasement.
He prophesied a coming judgment against Judah, and
he described it as a metallurgist’s fire:
And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away
thy dross, and take away all thy tin: And I will restore thy judges
as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterward
thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with
righteousness. And the destruction of the transgressors and of
the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD
shall be consumed (Isaiah 1 :25-28).
To debase a money metal is to counterfeit money. Counterfeiting
is a form of deliberate deception: fooling sellers of goods
and services into believing that the buyer has offered them a
high quality coin. The counterfeiter takes a quantity of highvalue
metal and then mixes in a low-value metal. This increases
the supply of molten metal. He pours this mixture into coin or
ingot molds. This increases the number of seemingly high-value
coins or ingots in his possession. He then goes out and spends
these false coins. This is judicially the same as tampering” with
the scales, a practice prohibited repeatedly by God.
Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just bin, shall ye
have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the
land of Egypt (Leviticus 19:36).
Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a
small (Deuteronomy 25: 13).
A just weight and balance are the LORD’S: all the weights of the
bag are his work (Proverbs 16:1 1).
Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike
abomination to the LORD (Proverbs 20:10).
Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false
balance is not good (Proverbs 20:23).
Shall I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with the
bag of deceitful weights? (Micah 6:11).
What the Bible requires is that those who produce gold or
silver coins and then spend them on other goods and services
must not debase their coinage. They must not manufacture
coins that appear to be made of a specific percentage (fineness)
of gold or silver when in fact the shiny metal coins contain a
lower percentage than what has been promised or implied by
tradition.
What is true of a counterfeit coin, which is relatively easy for
someone to test by color, weight, or hardness (in the case of
pure gold), is even more true of paper money and credit money.
One piece of paper money looks like all the others of the
same denomination. Thus, the paper money counterfeiter finds
it quite easy to produce extra pieces of paper – far easier than
the counterfeiter of metal coins. If the counterfeiter is the State,
and has legal access to the specialized paper and ink that only
the government is allowed to use (according to government
law), then this is doubly evil. It is a misuse of a God-given
delegation of sovereignty to the civil government. It is a betrayal
of the nation’s trust. It is theft.
Price Inflation
When a counterfeiter spends a few debased coins into circulation,
he can buy today’s goods at yesterday’s prices. But if the
counterfeiting continues, there will be more and more coins or
pieces of paper being offered in the market. This means that
money-denominated prices will be bid higher. In the case of
coins, the public will find ways to identify the debased coins.
Then a price differential will appear between the high-gold
content coins and the fakes. But in the case of paper money,
this differentiation is impossible. So, all pieces of paper money
fall in value equally.
If the government passes a law that requires all coins of the
same denomination to trade at the same price, then the highgold
content coins will be hoarded or exported outside the
government’s jurisdiction. This is Gresham’s Law in action:
“Bad coins drive good coins out of circulation.” This only happens
when the State imposes a unique price control: equal
value for coins of unequal value. Thus, Gresham’s Law should be stated as follows: “Coins that have been artificially overvalued
by civil law will steadily drive out of circulation those coins that
have been artificially undervalued by civil law.”
Monetary inflation produces price inflation. That is, counterfeiting
drives up the price of goods and services; hence, this
process of money growth lowers the market value of the debased
currency units. Those who hold onto money will see their
wealth depleted when prices of other items rise. In the case of
a government monopoly over money, those who trust the government
when it inflates the money supply generally lose.
Those who do not trust the government’s money spend the
money on goods whose value in money rises. They profit at the
expense of those who trust the government. If commercial
banks are licensed by the State to create credit money the same
process continues. The same is true of a State-licensed central
bank.
Monetary inflation redistributes wealth to those who gain
access early to the newly counterfeited money and spend it.
Who pays? Those who do not spend it early or those who gain
access to the money later in the process, after prices have risen.
Those who trust the monetary unit lose; those who do not trust
it win. This is an ethically perverse system. This is why the
Bible prohibits monetary inflation, either by the State or private
counterfeiters.
Conclusion
hy economic theory that begins with nature rather than
God’s sovereign creation of nature out of nothing cannot be
Christian. Any economic theory that begins with man rather
than God cannot be Christian. It may not directly attack Christianity,
but it is not Christian. It may provide a great deal of
good information about this or that, but it is not Christian.
Any monetary system that allows the State to create additional
paper money or credit apart from an equal increase in whatever
metal the paper receipts promise to pay – gold, silver, or copper – is opposed to what the Bible requires. The same holds
true for central banks and commercial banks that issue more
receipts to metal than they have in reserve, i.e., fractional reserve
banking.
Again this was a few pages from Gary North’s book” Salvation Through Inflation
The Economics of Social Credit” you can read it also: http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/gnsi.pdf
For more biblical education on money Gary North has written a book :
Honest Money
Biblical Principles of Money and Banking
http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/gnhm.pdf
Paul via Gary DeMar: “This means that everything that mankind
possesses is a gift of God. Christianity calls such gifts grace.” No, grace is the unmerited favor of God. It is wrong to debase this to apply to material possessions. DeMar writes: “God gave to Adam and Eve the ownership of the world:
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,…” DeMar makes the erroneous leap from “dominion” and “stewardship” to “ownership.” The Bible makes it clear that we own nothing, it is all God’s. DeMar continues “And
God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and
multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have Scarcity.” What? Neither my NIV or KJV says anything about scarcity. Scarcity is a human construct. More later, gotta go do a surgery.
DeMar: “What the Bible requires is that those who produce gold or
silver coins and then spend them on other goods and services
must not debase their coinage. They must not manufacture
coins that appear to be made of a specific percentage (fineness)
of gold or silver when in fact the shiny metal coins contain a
lower percentage than what has been promised or implied by
tradition.” Absolutely. I agree. This also proves that counterfeiting/cheating is not impossible with gold and silver used as money. In fact, without a standardized coin, counterfeiting/cheating is quite easy. Of course, if you have a standardized coin, you are now back to State controlled money, so you are between a rock and a hard place. All forms of money have the potential to be abused. Fiat money is harder for individuals to counterfeit, but if you see any sort of “money policy” as counterfeiting, then naturally you would see any actions by a central bank as evil. If you are going to claim that all money policy is evil, I actually think you could make that case Biblically. But to be consistent, you would have to stick with what the Bible clearly says about usary being evil and be against ANY transactions that involve interest rates. I think we can all see what a mess that would land us in.
mherman: “Well Mike, you are in your element again! You have this thread all to yourself! Preach it brother!”
In all honesty, I pray I am wrong. A currency collapse is one of the most unpleasant economic events a modern society can suffer. People’s life savings are destroyed in the process. Hyperinflation leads to hunger, starvation for some, a lower standard of living for most- except for those with first access to the “new money printed”, and sometimes to war as governments try to rally the people around an outside threat.
I am not sure what the situation is in Great Britain but I do believe you are not in much better shape than the US. I do know that $107,000,000,000,000 is not sustainable. I know that a real deficit of $9,000,000,000,000 will only be supported through the printing of money. Our monetary system is based on faith in government. A government that runs a cash account shortage of $1,800,000,000,000 and an additional liability of $8,000,000,000,000 cannot be counted on to pay back its debt. When confidence in the dollar (the stock of the US) is lost, the value of the currency will go to its intrinsic level; namely zero. A new currency will be instituted and the people will be forced to exchange the old for the new at a ratio provided by government. In Weimar Germany that ratio was 1,000,000,000,000 to 1.
Gold went from 168 marks in 1919 to 87,000,000,000,000 marks at the end of 1923. Those that held gold perserved their wealth as the value of gold never went up, it was the German mark that lost value. In 1919 the exchange rate of the mark to the dollar was about 4 to 1. 4 marks could be exchanged for $1. At the beginning of 1924, the exchange rate of marks to dollars was 4,200,000,000,000 to 1. Germans who had diversified out of the German mark by buying US government bonds, which paid interest in US dollars, or buying British bonds which paid in Pound sterling, or Swiss bonds that paid in Swiss Francs, or put some of their money into gold and silver; survived with their wealth in tact. Germans that held all their assets in the German mark, those that held German bonds or had their money in German banks found themselves penniless.
Jens O. Parssens writes about this in his book The Dying of Money. There was a widow that had 20 million marks in German government bonds at the end of the war. The value of these bonds was $5 million in US money. Her financial adviser suggested she sell some of her bonds and diversify into US, French, and Swiss Bonds. She refused as she considered herself a loyal German. By 1924 her 20 million marks worth of bonds was worth approximately $.00005 in US dollars. A pound of potatoes in Germany had gone from .25 marks in 1919 to 60 billion marks at the end of 1923. Her 20 million marks would not even buy a single potato.
How bad will it get here in the US? That’s a good question. I really don’t know, I just know it will get pretty bad. Inflation / hyperinflation is NOT AN ECONOMIC EVENT IT IS A CURRENCY EVENT.
I would venture that today’s guest does not have a clue as to what causes hyperinflation. I am pretty sure Stu doesn’t know either. An impoverished church cannot support the poor for the church itself is poor. When you congregation has been impoverished it cannot help the poor or support missions.
Paul: “Monetary inflation redistributes wealth to those who gain
access early to the newly counterfeited money and spend it.
Who pays? Those who do not spend it early or those who gain
access to the money later in the process, after prices have risen.”
We need to stop wasting our time on people that refuse to listen. kash loves the system we are on and does not see anything wrong with it. mherman believes Jesus will save us all from the coming economic collapse…I guess the US dollars held by Christians will be valued higher than the same US dollars held by non-believers. Stu and his guest believe that all we have to do is give money to missions and all will be well. Since God is in control surely He will not allow anything bad to happen to the faithful. Forget the fact that most of the faithful have been up to their eyeballs in debt, serving two masters, loving mammon more than God, building idols of the things they buy or acquire through credit, unequally yoked with banks that loan money to porn shops and liquor stores, and have accepted a monetary system that violates His word.
I guess Christians have not learned a single thing from the OT where God finally brought judgment on all of Israel and off the nation went into captivity. EVERYONE SUFFERED in the siege and the exile, even the righteous.
History repeats as Solomon says because even God’s people do not learn from the past. In that respect we are just like the world.
I want everyone to look at that stack of hundred dollar bills on the home page. What will your pension or bank account look like when such a stack of hundred dollar bills is what it takes to buy a loaf of bread or a gallon of gas?
kash: “I agree. This also proves that counterfeiting/cheating is not impossible with gold and silver used as money.”
You are DEAD WRONG. A scale would immediately detect a coin that is debased. Did you know that the US Constitution allows states which could allow local communities to coin their own money so long as they follow the formula set for those coins. The Bechtler Mint in NC produced gold coins in the early part of the 19th century. These coins now have great collector value as most were eventually melted down, but it was permissible by our Constitution for a Mint, now the Mint Museum, to be set up in Charlotte, NC.
Yes, coins can be debased but that is caught very quickly. Keep trying though, maybe you will make sense in some point you make. Keep supporting the most UnGodly monetary system devised by man….one that will impoverish and enslave the people just as all fiat currencies have done throughout the ages.
The definition of insanity or some say it is stupidity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. We have thousands of years of monetary history, and every time a government debased its money the results were always the same….misery for the people, a rotten economy, violence, and revolution. Why do you expect a different outcome this time?
Paul, debating kash on this issue is a waste of time. She is determined to stick with the statist and those that would rob her and her children no matter what. The Left knows that a sound monetary policy, one based on a hard asset like Gold and Silver, is the enemy of the statist. Every despot of the 20th century removed gold and silver from the monetary system in order to gain control of the people. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Fidel Castro, etc. all made gold ownership illegal. It was one of the first things they did to establish the state as the supreme power. Yet these very same individuals stashed their hoard of gold, knowing full well that it represented the only true store of wealth.
kash is ignorant on the subject and is satisfied to remain that way. Doug Tjaden did his best to explain how our monetary system violates the Law of God and how gold is the most honest system devised because it relies on what God gave us to use as money.
Doug once told me that the scales will fall away from the eyes of Christians regarding our current monetary system when it begins to collapse. I am not so sure the scales will fall from kash’s eyes as she has glued them on with superglue.
kash, the world understands that the US debt is unsustainable and therefore the US will be forced to default on its debt. The money will be paid but it just won’t be worth much. This in essence is a default.
With the USDX down from above 120 to 78 and change, people are now waking up.
Undermined faith in the US dollar means a currency event which develops into hyperinflation.
“There has been a lot of disappointment with the way the U.S. credit crisis was handled,” says Claire Dissaux, managing director of global economics and strategy for Millennium Global Investments Ltd., a London investment firm specializing in currencies. “The dollar’s loss of influence is a steady and long-term trend.”
“In a new twist to an old refrain among economists, who have long worried about the effects of growing U.S. debt, they say that the huge liabilities the U.S. is taking on to dig its way out of crisis could ultimately undermine faith in the dollar.”
As Budget Deficit Grows, So Do Doubts on Dollar
By NEIL SHAH
LONDON — The U.S. economy may be showing signs of recovering from the financial crisis, but the jury is still out on the future of the U.S. dollar.
While many analysts expect the dollar to strengthen in coming months as the crisis fades and the U.S. economy turns toward growth, a growing chorus of investors is expressing concern about the longer-term outlook for the greenback.
In a new twist to an old refrain among economists, who have long worried about the effects of growing U.S. debt, they say that the huge liabilities the U.S. is taking on to dig its way out of crisis could ultimately undermine faith in the dollar.
“There has been a lot of disappointment with the way the U.S. credit crisis was handled,” says Claire Dissaux, managing director of global economics and strategy for Millennium Global Investments Ltd., a London investment firm specializing in currencies. “The dollar’s loss of influence is a steady and long-term trend.”
On Tuesday, the Obama administration added fuel to concerns about the dollar, saying the U.S. will run a cumulative budget deficit of $9 trillion over the next 10 years, $2 trillion more than it had previously projected.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125122938682957967.html
Kash: “No, grace is the unmerited favor of God. It is wrong to debase this to apply to material possessions.”
Kash,
Do you not distinguish between what is known as “common grace” and “special grace”? Common grace being given to all in the form of life, breath, rain, provision, etc. No one deserves to take even one more breath. And special grace (or saving grace) being given only through Jesus Christ. I’m not trying to provoke a huge debate, especially since this is off topic, but your answer did make me wonder, so I thought I would ask.
Here is an interesting article. See if you can understand what Schiff is trying to communicate:
The Devil We Know
Peter Schiff
Aug 27, 2009
Ayn Rand wrote, “when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – you may know that your society is doomed.”
America is not doomed, but the fellows in Washington are pushing for that outcome. It seems that all the characters that encouraged this financial crisis are being rewarded, and Ben Bernanke’s re-nomination is no exception to this rule. He was on the Board of Governors when Alan Greenspan grew our bubble economy. Known as ‘Helicopter Ben,’ Bernanke was the most vocal supporter of low interest rates to combat the bogus threat of deflation, even if it meant dropping cash from helicopters. He succeeded in his aim – as it is hard for prices to decline while the money supply is growing by double digits.
Of course, much of that new money went into speculative bubbles, first in tech and then real estate. When the misallocation became too great to ignore, the credit markets froze and leveraged institutions started failing. Now, Bernanke says that he doesn’t want to preside over another Great Depression. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t want another Great Depression; he just doesn’t want to preside over it. His plan seems to be continuing to print money so that the depression isn’t apparent until after he leaves office. However, while Greenspan was able to get out of Dodge, Bernanke will probably not be so lucky, as his reappointment virtually guarantees that he will be in the middle of the action when the bullets start to fly. Left to clean up his own mess, Bernanke will soon regret not quitting while the going was good.
Bernanke is being praised for avoiding a collapse in the financial system. While he has forestalled some short-term pain, he has in turn forsaken long-term gain. The ‘green shoots’ that set the pundits alight are nothing more than the direct effects of massive monetary expansion. What we have is nominal growth in the unproductive service and consumption sectors. In short, Bernanke is being praised by the drug addicts for not cutting them off. But the thing about addiction is that the longer you stay hooked, the more deadly the withdrawal.
What this country needs is a Fed Chairman that is immensely unpopular, backed by a courageous President. Under Paul Volcker and Ronald Reagan, this model proved effective at avoiding a complete economic collapse in the early 1980’s. In case posterity’s resounding approval has clouded anyone’s memory, Volcker was vilified and threatened with impeachment at the height of that crisis. Reagan’s decision to stand behind Volcker allowed the Chairman to persevere. It has never been popular to be responsible. Only after the markets settled and the country experienced twenty years of prosperity was history’s final judgment made about Volcker.
Greenspan undid the painful sacrifice we made in 1981. He grew a bubble in tech stocks and then refused to allow the economy to restructure after it burst, instead inflating a real estate bubble in its stead. Meanwhile, federal spending ballooned, along with unfunded liabilities and guarantees that distorted the capital markets. The Fed created moral hazard because the government assumed that any excessive debt would be monetized. When push came to shove, Bernanke did exactly that, perhaps even hiding his intervention by buying Treasuries through intermediaries. In doing so, he allowed our elected officials to avoid making the politically costly decisions that would have prepared the country for future growth.
To get a sense of Bernanke’s ultimate legacy, look no further than Argentina. Though many of the rich and powerful had moved their savings abroad, a currency collapse wiped out the middle class in that historically prosperous country. Is such an outcome worth the short-term comfort of avoiding the severe but temporary pain of unemployment and mortgage defaults?
Bernanke’s re-nomination is a politically safe decision for President Obama, and at least Bernanke is a devil we know. However, this lack of a ‘change’ for the better should squash any ‘hope’ for a genuine recovery. If the Bush years were as bad as the Democrats claim, then it is curious that they are mimicking and magnifying the same mistakes. No one has been held accountable for a financial crisis that the professors, pundits, and politicians told us would not come. All the same players are running the game, always changing the rules so they stay on top. Real ‘change we can believe in’ would be a return to our roots in the rule of law and a system of sound money – but it’s hard to stay grounded when you’re throwing money from helicopters.
A lesson from history: PART 1
If history teaches anything, it is that government cannot be trusted to manage money. When currency is not redeemable in gold, its value depends entirely on the judgment and the conscience of the politicians. (That is the situation in this country today.)
Especially in an economic crisis or a war, the pressure to inflate becomes overwhelming. Any alternative may seem politically disastrous. Whether it be the Roman emperors repeatedly debasing their coinage, the French revolutionary government printing a flood of assignats, John Law flooding France with debased money, or the Continental Congress issuing money until it was literally “not worth a Continental,” the story is similar. A government in financial straits finds its easiest recourse is to issue more and more money until the money loses its value. The entire process is accompanied by a barrage of explanations, propaganda and new regulations which hide the true situation from the eyes of most people until they have lost all their savings. In World War I, Germany — like other governments — borrowed heavily to pay its war costs. This led to inflation, but
not much more than in the U.S. during the same period. After the war there was a period of stability, but then the inflation resumed. By 1923, the wildest inflation in history was raging. Often prices doubled in a few hours. A wild stampede developed to buy goods and get rid of money. By late 1923 it took 200 billion marks to buy a loaf of bread.
Millions of the hard-working, thrifty German people found that their life’s savings would not buy a postage stamp. They were penniless. How could this happen in a highly civilized nation run at the time by intelligent, democratically chosen leaders? What happened to business, to wages and employment? How did some people manage to save their capital while a few speculators made fortunes?
The Years 1914-1921
When the war broke out on July 31, 1914, the Reichsbank (German Central Bank) suspended redeemability of its notes in gold. After that there was no legal limit as to how many notes it could print. The government did not want to upset people with heavy taxes. Instead it borrowed huge amounts of money which were to be paid by the enemy after Germany had won the war, Much of the borrowing was discounted and monetized by the Reichsbank. As explained later, this amounted to issuing straight printing press money.
By the end of the war, the amount of money in circulation had increased four-fold. In view of this, the extent of inflation was less than one might have expected. The consumer price index had risen 140% by December 1918. This was equal to the inflation during the same time in England, a little more than in the United States, but less than in France. Yet the floating debt of the Reichsbank had increased from 3 billion to 55 billion marks!
Why was inflation kept within bounds? For the same reason that it got off to a slow start in the Unites States during World War II. Necessities were rationed and luxury goods were not easily available. Millions of men were at the front and not in the market for goods. Civilians worked hard and had little leisure for spending. People saved money against peace time, and in some cases to evade taxes. But the fuel for inflation was accumulating in the form of vast hoards of money.
The harsh reparation payments imposed on Germany led the mark to depreciate against foreign currencies. Also, the new democratic socialist leaders had promised the people all types of bounties–increased wages, reduced hours, an expanded educational system, and new social benefits. But all this meant a vastly increased demand on a limited production capacity.
For these reasons inflation resumed after the peace until by February 1920 the price level was five times as high as it had been at the armistice. Yet during this same time the amount of currency in circulation had only doubled. Prices were in fact rising much faster than the rate at which money was being printed. Therefore, reasoned the officials, the price inflation could hardly be blamed on the government. Actually, as we shall see, the ebb and flow of confidence can play a big role in the short-term trend of prices. Confidence in the mark had weakened. At the same time, and as a consequence, billions of hoarded marks came out of hiding and entered the marketplace. The accumulated fuel was burning.
By February 1920 this inflationary episode had run its course. For the next fifteen months the price index held stable. The mark actually gained in value against foreign currencies, so that prices of imported goods fell by some 50%. Here was a golden opportunity to establish a stable currency. However, during these fifteen months the government kept issuing new money. The currency in circulation increased by 50% and the floating debt of the Reichsbank by 100%, providing fuel for a new outbreak.
In May 1921, price inflation started again and by July 1922 prices had risen 700%. The Reichsbank continued printing new currency, although more slowly than the rate at which prices were rising. In fact, all through this period the issue of currency proceeded at a fairly smooth steady rate, while the price index moved up in great surges, interspersed by periods of stability.
After July 1922 the phase of hyperinflation began. All confidence in money vanished and the price index rose faster and faster for fifteen months, outpacing the printing presses which could not run out money as fast as it was depreciating.
Wholesale Price Index
July 1914 1.0
Jan 1919 2.6
July 1919 3.4
Jan 1920 12.6
Jan 1921 14.4
July 1921 14.3
Jan 1922 36.7
July 1922 100.6
Jan 1923 2,785.0
July 1923 194,000.0
Nov 1923 726,000,000,000.0
Are you paying attention Stu and kash?
PART 2
The Years 1922-1923 — Hyperinflation!
From Mid-1922 to November 1923 hyperinflation raged. The table above tells the story. Seemingly Reichsbank officials believed that the basic trouble was the depreciation of the mark in terms of foreign currencies. In late 1922 they tried to support the mark by purchasing it in the foreign exchange markets. However, since they continued printing new currency at a feverish rate, the attempt failed. They merely succeeded in buying worthless marks in return for valuable gold and foreign exchange.
All hope of checking the collapse of the mark vanished in January 1923 when the French–alleging treaty violations–occupied Germany’s key industrial district, the Ruhr. Germany subsidized the occupied companies and financed an expensive program of “passive resistance.” New billions of marks were printing to finance these heavy new costs. By late 1923, 300 paper mills were working top speed and 150 printing companies had 2000 presses going day and night turning out currency.
Under the forced draft of inflation, business was now operating at feverish speed and unemployment had disappeared. However, the real wages of workers dropped badly. Unions obtained frequent increases, but these could not keep pace. Workers –domestics, farm workers and various white collar groups– fared especially badly. They had no unions to fight for pay boosts for them, and often they were reduced to hunger. Many people showed visible signs of malnutrition. Skilled workers, writers, artisans and professionals found their wages lagging until they reached the unskilled worker level, which often meant the bare minimum needed to support life.
Businessmen began to abandon their legitimate occupations to speculate in stocks and in goods. Thousands of small businessmen tried to eke out a living by speculating in fabrics, shoes, meat, soap, clothing–in any produce they could obtain. Each fall in the mark brought a rush to the shops. People bought dozens of hats or sweaters.
By mid-1923 workers were being paid as often as three times a day. Their wives would meet them, take the money and rush to the shops to exchange it for goods. However, by this time, more and more often, shops were empty. Storekeepers could not obtain goods or could not do business fast enough to protect their cash receipts. Farmers refused to bring produce into the city in return for worthless paper. Food riots broke out. Parties of workers marched into the countryside to dig up vegetables and to loot the farms. Businesses started to close down and unemployment suddenly soared. The economy was collapsing.
PART 3:
Meanwhile, middle-class people who depended on any sort of fixed income found themselves destitute. They sold furniture, clothing, jewelry and works of art to buy food. Little shops became crowded with such merchandise. Hospitals, literary and art societies, charitable and religious institutions closed down as their funds disappeared.
Then by a mere effort of will, the government stepped in and stabilized the currency overnight.
Throughout the “miracle of the Rentenmark” the depreciation halted in its tracks, business revived, the inflationary spree was ended although, as we shall see, there was a nasty hangover yet to come.
Millions of middle-class Germans–normally the mainstay of a republic–were ruined by the inflation. They became receptive to rabid right wing propaganda and formed a fertile soil for Hitler. Workers who had suffered through the inflation turned, in many cases, to the Communists. The biggest beneficiaries of this enormous redistribution of wealth were feudalistic industrial leaders who distrusted the democracy and who proved willing to deal with Hitler, thinking that they could control him. The democratic parties and the labor unions lost their capital and were weakened. The liberal democratic regime was discredited.
PART 4:
What caused the inflation?
Our thesis is simple: The inflation was caused by the government issuing a flood of new money, causing prices to rise. Then, as the inflation gained momentum, events seemed to demand the printing of larger and larger issues of currency. To half the process would have taken political courage, and this was lacking. As usual, the true facts were hidden behind a barrage of excuses, explanations and propaganda laying blame on everyone except the true culprit.
First, it would be wrong to think that everyone was opposed to inflation. Many big business leaders accepted it cheerfully. It wiped out their debts. They knew how to protect themselves and even profit–by speculating in foreign exchange, by converting money into goods and fixed plant, by borrowing money from the bank and using it to buy up cheap stocks and competing companies. Their wage costs, in true value, decreased, swelling their profits. Yet many workers also thought that they were benefiting, at least in the earlier stages of the inflation. Their wages were increased, and it took time before they recognized that, with prices soaring even faster, they were actually suffering a cut in true income.
A crew of speculators arose who traded in goods and foreign exchange, they had a vested interest in continued inflations. And the government could not help realizing that the inflation was wiping out its burden of debt and would ease its financial problems.
http://www.usagold.com/germannightmare.html
NOTE THE LAST PARAGRAPH, “And the government could not help realizing that the inflation was wiping out its burden of debt and would ease its financial problems.”
“the government could not help realizing that the inflation was wiping out its burden of debt and would ease its financial problems.”
The US government is greatest debtor the world has ever seen. Inflation / hyperinflation occurs as confidence in the currency is lost. Loss of confidence in currency is the result of loss of confidence in the government / nation that issues the currency. With an estimated $1.8 trillion deficit (cash to cash accounting) / $9 trillion deficit (GAAP accouting) THIS YEAR and trillions of dollars in the future years does not exactly give our creditors a warm fuzzy feeling. Confidence in the US being able to manage its debt is now in doubt by many of the nations of the world. Unfortunately for them they are choked up with dollars and will do all they can to support it. However, they know that in the in end the dollar will have to decline in value and so they are looking for a way out of the Dollar trap they are in. This is where SDRs come into play. A basket of currencies that represent a new global reserve where the USD is just a part of that basket.
When this is announced it will lead the dollar lower. Once the new world reserve currency is established, the dollar will lose its current massive support by China and all the other nations. As the dollar drops their currencies will rise, leading to price stability in their countries while the US suffers from rising inflation.
This is the path we are on. Like any path one does not know what will be found along the trail in the way of fallen trees, or a dried up stream. In other words there will be twists and turns along the way that no one can anticipate, but the end of the trail is still the same. At some point the US dollar we know, will be replaced by some other currency. Maybe a new dollar, maybe something with a completely different name. In Germany the Mark was replaced by the Retten Mark at an exchange rate of 1 trillion old for one of the new….that’s 1,000,000,000,000 to 1.
Those of you that believe such an event is not possible, must not know much about the Bible. I’ve given you the Bible passages that support my point of view. Doug Tjaden’s website explains just how the current system violates God’s law. Yet many Christians continue to buy into the what men have to say is going to happen, rather than what the Bible teaches. An abomination to the Lord in a country He has so richly blessed, will not be tolerated forever. The US dollar we use today is NOT the US dollar pre-Aug.14, 1971. It is certain not the US dollar of 90 years ago, which was made of 90% silver and a $20 gold piece was 90% gold. The currency was redeemable for Gold, while today it is redeemable for nothing except more paper dollars.
Anyone that knows the Slightest thing about technical analysis will look at a chart of gold and a chart of the US dollar and immediately see that gold is forming a new base within an UP TREND while the US dollar is forming one in a long term DOWN TREND. The probability of the US Dollar BREAKING DOWN from its base is 75% while the probability of Gold BREAKING OUT from its base is an equal 75%. In addition Gold has formed a Massive Complex Head and Shoulders Bottom, a rare formation in an uptrend, with the neckline at $1000. If the Neckline is broken, the measuring implications for gold is $1200 to $1300 before goes into a new basing pattern and consolidates its gains.
Gold is the antithesis of the US dollar. $1200 gold means the US Dollar will likely be in the low 70s to high or middle 60s. Inflation will be a FACT of life in the US. When the velocity of money begins to pick up as people look for ways to retain wealth, the end game for the USD will be in play. The end of the road will not be far off, and by then those individuals that did not take defensive action to preserve their wealth (read getting out of US dollar assets while the getting was good) will find themselves completely impoverished. Most of these people will be the retirees that saved all their lives for their golden years. These are the Christians that provide most of the support (a guess on my part) to Churches and their missions work. With support falling off as congregations are impoverished in the hyperinflation, Churches will at first cut back on expenses and eventually many will be force to close their doors as they cannot meet mortgage payments and rising prices for energy. Families will suffer under the stress. Society will begin to see a breakdown….I have no idea how far this process will go. In Germany, people actually went out to the farms to steal food. Hungry people are desperate people. It is my prayer that out of this situation, Christians will lead the way to re-establish the US as a God fearing nation that adheres to the Bible as we once did. This is not a theorcracy as some of you may believe. It is what once made America the greatest, freest, and wealthiest nation on earth.
Economic events I have described have happened before and will happen again; read Eccl. 1-3. You ignore the probabilities at your own risk. Christian read and UNDERSTAND YOUR BIBLE.
How to look at the US debt; not the unfunded liabilities – just the plain vanilla debt, which is $11.5 Trillion:
If you spend $10 million per day, 7 days per week, 52 weeks of the year it would take you 2800 years to spend $11.5 trillion. By 2019, this debt is expect to be over $20 trillion.
$11.5 trillion is a stack of dollar bills all the way to the moon and back.
11.5 trillion measured in seconds is equal to 320,000 years.
The Milky Way Galaxy has 400 billion stars. 11.5 trillion is equal to 25 Milky Way Galaxies.
BUT THE WORST OF IT ARE THE UNFUNDED LIABILITIES WHICH EVEN BY THE MOST CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES ARE NOW OVER $50 TRILLION, AND RISING AT RATE IN EXCESS OF $5 TRILLION PER YEAR.
The numbers are so large that they seem meaningless to most people. It is enough to repeat that if we were to count out the estimated total liabilities of the US at the speed of light ($186,000 per second) it would take over 15 years to count out the money we need to be solvent.
Anyone that does not see the unsustainability of this fiscal policy is a complete and total moron when it comes to economics. kash will tell you that we will grow our way out of this mess. That is like telling the passengers on the Titanic that they could keep the ship from sinking if they all grabbed a teaspoon and started bailing.
JD42: “Common grace being given to all in the form of life, breath, rain, provision, etc. No one deserves to take even one more breath. And special grace (or saving grace) being given only through Jesus Christ.” Either way, to use the concept of grace to defend economic growth through capitalism seems a bit of a stretch. I am not against capitalism, but I am against this idea that strict laissez-faire free market economics are somehow from God. All economic theories are human constructs. God did not tell us HOW to order our economy. He simply admonishes us again and again in the scriptures to make certain that the poor, the outcast, the sick, the “widows and orphans” have a place at the table. In a totally unregulated free market system, with no safety nets, the poor and widows and orphans are crushed.
kash: “I am not against capitalism, but I am against this idea that strict laissez-faire free market economics are somehow from God. All economic theories are human constructs. God did not tell us HOW to order our economy. He simply admonishes us again and again in the scriptures to make certain that the poor, the outcast, the sick, the “widows and orphans” have a place at the table. In a totally unregulated free market system, with no safety nets, the poor and widows and orphans are crushed.”
You seem to come from an EITHER / OR system. No one, certainly not me, has suggested that there is no role for government. I do not wish to return to the age of Robber Barons, Trusts, and Monopolies. My objections about the Fed is that it is a Trust…a money trust run by men who are in control of our entire monetary supply.
The Bible gives the Church the responsibility for taking care of the poor, the widows, and the orphans. It does not tell us to set up a government that forces the people to give and in the end becomes the arbiter of who gets what.
The Bible does indeed tell us in many ways how to order the economy. Joseph only took 20% of what the people produced in Egypt as a tax. Interesting that back in the 50s and most of the 60s American’s average total tax burden was right at 20%. Today is it is closer to 40% and rising.
In the 70s women went to work to suppliment incomes. By the end of the 80s people began to save less and actually dig into their savings to make ends meet. By the end of the 90s the American people were close to a zero savings rate and by the 2008 the savings rate had turned negative. Interesting that since 1971, the year the US dollar was no longer backed by gold, the dollar has lost 93% of its value. IN the 70s we began to hear a new term, Latch Key Children. Children coming home to empty homes. Where once a single bread winner was sufficient to support the family had become a thing of the past. I guess some would call this progress.
I grew up poor in a poor neighborhood. We had no A/C and no central heat. BTW, I grew up in Miami’s inner city, where it gets hot in the summer. One of the things my neighborhood wasn’t was crime ridden. I grew up with a father and mother that loved me and my two sisters. My father worked and my mother took care of the home. When my father got sick my mother went to work, as I did to help support the family. My older sister and I went to college both of us getting Master’s degrees while my younger sister went into law enforcement. My sister’s and I were basically first generation Americans.
Of course there was no welfare back in those days…no food stamps…no school lunch programs…no government to act as daddy. So I, my sisters, and all the neighborhood kids who were poor relied on each other and of course most of all our families. I recall one of my neighbors, a black man that had just come from Cuba and did not know one word of English learned how to install chain link fences. He had arrived from Cuba with nothing but the shirt on his back.
This was the early 60s when there was real discrimination against blacks and hispanics and this man was both. He and his two sons started installing fences. By the mid 70s they had a thriving company and had moved to North Miami Beach. My father purchased old homes, which was a miracle since he was a day laborer, fixed them up and rented them out. While he never was able to enjoy a retirement (he died at 59 of a heart attack), my mother has had a good life living off the rental property.
MY POINT; GOVERNMENT PROVIDES A HANDOUT AND KEEPS PEOPLE IN POVERTY. Most people, if given the opportunity will make a good life for themselves so long as no institutions keep them from achieving their dreams. Government has no Great Angels working for it that keep the government from abusing its power. The bigger government gets the more abusive it becomes. The bigger government gets the more dependent the people are on it and the politicians that run it. Big Government needs dependent people. People will depend on Big Government for a job or for the meager scraps it throws out to the peasants.
kash you continue to be a devout Statists. You seem to have more faith in the goodness of the State than in the freedom each human being yearns for. You continue to be a useful idiot.
PS. Tell me that the poor living in the ghettos are any better off today than when I was a kid. The Junior high I went to was called Dade County’s forgotten child. The school was old and there was no A/C anywhere in the classrooms. Yet, I do not recall a single incident where the police were called. We certainly did not have School Resource Officers. Teachers complained about children running in the halls and forgetting to do their homework. This was an inner city school.
I had friends that went to Miami Jackson High School which was predominantly Black. It was located in the worst part of the city. There was no school resource officer their either, and most kids graduated from that school. Many went on to college or to technical schools. This is no longer the case as the drop out rates have increased dramatically. My older sister retired from the Dade Co. School system and she can list for you the deterioration of education in America along with the destruction of the family by our beneficial government.
Your support of the Statist is a support of evil. This of course is my opinion.
kash, one more thing. You love your compassion and think it Christian. What you support is destructive to society and human beings. The family is no longer what it use to be. The poor may have more stuff, but they are poorer than ever. Just ask anyone that grew up poor 50 years ago, and compare their experiences with today’s poor.
Mike, you have the typical conservative view of welfare. You personal story is touching, but hardly proof of anything in particular. And there WAS welfare back in the 60s, whether you were aware of it as a child or not. Here is an interesting article for you to read. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarepoverty.htm
kash: “And there WAS welfare back in the 60s, whether you were aware of it as a child or not.”
Johnson’s war on poverty was aimed at ending poverty in America. All it did according to many that still support it, was to establish poverty for generations within certain families. You need to read some of the work by men like Thomas Soule and Walter E. Williams. The crime ridden, drug ridden, gang ridden, ghettos of the inner cities were the creation of government. Government regulations regarding who would qualify for government housing led to the destruction of entire communities. The construction companies that built these monstrosities made billions, just as the one that tore down the old neighborhoods. You fail to see the fascist elements that have hijacked this nation. All you have to do is look at the “Green” / Climate Change movement to see that it is not any political system running the show it is corporate interest that will profit at the expense of the people. STOP BEING A USEFUL IDIOT.
Somehow you are under the impression that more government means better government and a better life for the masses. YOU COULD NOT BE MORE MISTAKEN. You have no understanding of history or what our founding fathers passed on to us that created the greatest standard of living on earth. JUST LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL MOVEMENT. It has less to do with saving the environment than controlling our lives and enriching a handful of people.
You need to read GREEN HELL by Steve Malloy. He connects the dots and how corporate America in collusion with government is going to profit at our expense. Government has spent $69 billion promoting climate change. Exxon Mobile spent $24 million countering the Global Warming argument and they were villified. The greenies want to control every aspect of our lives. In Calif. they even want to control the color of our cars. While they berate our use of energy, one of its proponents, Al Gore, spends $600 per month in energy heating his swimming pool. The Greenies do not see children as a blessing but a burden on “mother earth.” The “Smart Grid” systems are nothing more than regulating each person’s use of energy. While they pay lip service to “renewable wind and solar” they oppose such projects as when Diane Fienstein objected to a Solar project in the desert and the Kennedys have opposed building a Windfarm off the East coast where they might have to look at it.
You would think that corporate America would be against these socialists but nothing could be further from the truth. If Cap and Trade passes, the buying and selling of Carbon credits will be the LARGEST COMMODITIES SECTOR ON THE EXCHANGES. Goldman Sachs and Al Gore’s Trading company already see the opportunities available. If this legislation passes, Al will be the first Carbon Billionaire.
Large corporations like GE that build windmills and solar panels will reap windfall profits providing the systems. The government will tax businesses that make us less competitive and lead to a further transfer of wealth out of the US. You will notice that the less develop nations and China especially will not participate in this madness. This can only be done with the assistance of big government. Who will pay? The people. What will be the benefits? Very few for the people, great for the corporations that surround this segment of the economy.
My point. Just as many businesses profited from the “War on Poverty” at the expense of the poor, the same is taking place right now with the Green Movement. This is not capitalism, it is Fascism.
I give you concrete facts and examples to support my opinions….as in my opinion of Fiat Money. You work with all your might to reject anything that does not agree with “your worldview” which is not Christian. There is nothing in the Bible that says government should take care of the poor. This is the role of the Church. It was only a couple of generations ago when the percentage of children born out of wedlock in the Black Family was less than the number born out of wedlock. Today it is estimated that over 60%, and some say it much higher, of all children born to black women are OUT OF WEDLOCK. The correlation between government welfare and the destruction of the black family as well as big government’s ruinous effects on education cannot be overlooked. Conservative Black authors, like Thomas Soule have stated that what Slavery and Jim Crow were unable to accomplish the past 400 years, the Welfare State has done in one generation; namely the destruction of the Black Family.
kash, STOP BEING A USEFUL IDIOT.
kash: “Mike, you have the typical conservative view of welfare.”
Typical conservative????? If anything I am atypical. I disagree with vehemently with Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Neal Boortz, etc on economic issues. I’ve gotten through all of these except Rush to debate the issue of the horrible track record of the Republican Party when it comes to conservative issue. Most of all none of these men will agree with me on the Fed. None of these men agree with me on the issue of bonuses paid to corporate executives that have brought our economy to its knees. Long before Obama became the Democrat candidate for Pres., I called Mark to explain why I thought the US was headed for a hyperinflationary depression. He basically made some comment about me being Nostradamus and cut me off. Sean did the same when I tried to tell him that it has been generations since the US was a capitalist nation. Keynesian economic calls for government intervention in “managing” the economy and that is not capitalism, it is fascism. Reagan was a great President but on fiscal policy he was no different than anyone else…..he should have established a “lock box” for Social Security and he did not do it; neither did Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, or Barak Obama. Me a typical conservative. For typical, kash, look in the mirror. You on the other hand slavishly serve at the feet of the Left.
kash, STOP BEING A USEFUL IDIOT. Stop serving the very people that will enslave us all while increasing their power and influence.
BTW, I also listen to Alan Combs, a liberal, and to a local station that leans left.
kash: ““Mike, you have the typical conservative view of welfare.”
No, I have a realistic view of Welfare. No one can tell me that big government has improved the lives of the poor in any way shape or form. Inner city schools are horrible, drop out rates are at historic highs while those that graduate barely function on an eighth grade level. All of this has come with the massive intervention of big government.
And now you believe government will save us from economic turmoil, when it was government that created the crisis in the first place. It is now government that will prolong it and make it worse.
Notice that while you speak of Democrat vs. Republican, I condemn both since both have been in power from time to time and no one was interested in changing the system. IN MY OPINION, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PARTIES, which is why the national debt has grown bigger and bigger every year since the end of WW II.
During the eight years of the Bush administration, the debt doubled from $5 trillion to $10 trillion. Under Obama, it will double again. The debt is growing exponentially. It now represents 400% of GDP and when you throw in UNFUNDED LIABILITIES it is over 800% of GDP. The deficits are so large (GAAP) that even if you taxed the American people 100% of their income, you would still be in deficit.
We have crossed the River of No Return. We must deal with the crisis and pay the piper. Unfortunately the government is trying to avoid the inevitable which will make the inevitable even more painful. YOU DO NOT HAVE A CLUE kash, NOT A SINGLE CLUE. But I can’t fault you for that, as MOST ARE IN YOUR CAMP.
I think Paul understands where all this is headed. Stu and his recent guest are in a fog. The fog will soon lift and reality will hit everyone like a run-away freight train going down a steep grade. That is the light at the end of the tunnel everyone keeps talking about. The Green Shoots are crabgrass taking over the lawn of a once great nation. We Christians need to win back our country. We need to lead the nation back to prosperity.
Severe damage has already been done. Not the least of which has been abortion. The massive wave of baby boomers have hit their peak spending / earning years. There are not enough young people following up to pick up the slack. We are in many ways like Japan, whose peak in spending population peaked in the early 90s and from their it has been down hill. Their economy has been stagnant, the lost decade, as government tried to pick up the slack and supported the Zombie Banks. THE US IS DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING EXCEPT WE ARE IN MUCH WORSE SHAPE.
Try doing something different. Stop reading and listening to all the lefties and try learning something for yourself. You are nothing more than a mouth piece for the statists and especially the Democratic Party.
“You work with all your might to reject anything that does not agree with “your worldview” which is not Christian.” See? There you go again. Because I don’t agree with your ECONOMIC theories, you question the quality of my faith. I do not make the mistake of equating my economic and political theories with scripture. That would be idolatry. I do let scripture influence my opinions on economic and political issues, but I do not confuse the two.
Mike, I did not say you were a typical conservative, I said you had the typical conservative view of welfare. Just as I am not a typical liberal, but I have typical liberal views on some issues (welfare, health care) and more conservative views on other issues (abortion, morality).
“The crime ridden, drug ridden, gang ridden, ghettos of the inner cities were the creation of government.” I do not accept this view. There are many factors why SOME inner cities (well, some parts of cities) have become racked by violence and hopelessness, but you can hardly blame it on welfare and the government. Drugs played a huge roll. BTW, in rural areas there are many people also on welfare, but because (until recently) drugs weren’t concentrated in these areas they didn’t have the high rates of crime. However, now that there is crystal meth, rural areas are struggling with many of the same issues inner cities have been struggling with for decades. And don’t forget that some cities have done an excellent job of cleaning up areas and making it more habitable for all demographics, ethnically and economically speaking. Many of these programs were at least partially government funded. Government is only as good (or as bad) as the people in government and the people working with the government. When communities get together, apply for government aid, and then help the government help themselves, wonderful things can happen. But it takes a committment to work with government resources, not just wait for government to do stuff for you, but also not just blame government and ignore the ways public resources can help the public.
kash: “you can hardly blame it on welfare and the government. ” Government tore down viable neighborhoods with many poor but RESPONSIBLE families to build the Low Income Housing Projects. Qualifying for these projects excluded the upper levels of the poor who were the bedrock of the communities. With nothing but the lowest of the poor living in the projects they began to quickly degenerate.
Government regulations also encouraged men to leave the home and rewarded women for having babies out of wedlock. In the mean time, the “marriage penalty” put undue burdens on married couples which encouraged couples to live together out of wedlock. I recall hearing stories in the news on individuals that actually got divorced and just live together. One couple presented on 60 Minutes, I think, actually divorced at the end of each year then remarried at the beginning of the next year to benefit from the tax system.
You live in a Make Believe Fantasy Land that takes the intent of Government and makes it Reality. I have said that the Devil is always in the details of the bureaucracy and how the laws are administered. We know of many well intentioned laws that proved to be horrible experiences for everyone.
Stop being a Useful Idiot.
kash: “Government is only as good (or as bad) as the people in government and the people working with the government.”
And what does the Bible say about the nature of Man?
kash: “government and ignore the ways public resources can help the public.”
Government and therefore the public coffers, has no resources, it can only take from producers. Government is notoriously inefficient. The Welfare Program provided an average of 24% of all money spent to the recipients. The rest, kash, went to the bureaucracy.
Now would you contribute to a charity that only gave 24 cents on the dollar to the beneficiaries and spent the rest on administrative costs?
“The Welfare Program provided an average of 24% of all money spent to the recipients. The rest, kash, went to the bureaucracy.” No offense, MIke, but since most of what you say about welfare and welfare recipients is wrong, I need a citation for this before I’ll believe it. And not just something quoted from a right wing web site that also claims women have more babies in order to get more money, since that isn’t how welfare works.
“And what does the Bible say about the nature of Man?” Well, gee, Mike, it doesn’t say we can’t ever do anything good. You seem to have “original sin” confused with “perpetual sin”. I came across an Osar Wilde quote today that made me think of you: “The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
kash: “The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
You are the Bumper Sticker Expert. Clueless on everything else, but great on Bumper Sticker slogans.
kash, it really does not matter how much money is spent on any given Government program. We know that there are few things government does well. The Cash for Clunkers program which you championed is starting to look like a gigantic mistake as far stimulating anything in the economy.
Medicare has had the effect of driving more and more physicians to refusing medicare patients because they lose money on them. In some areas of medicine the decline in the number of physicians is becoming alarming. But no matter, even though the government has created the problem, we are sure government will solve it. This is outstanding logic.
Government has created the current financial crisis that has cost us millions of jobs. But not to worry, government will solve the problem for us.
LBJ’s Great Society was to end poverty in our life time and after trillions of dollars spent, what do we have to show for it. The destruction of families. But don’t worry the government will help the poor.
Discussing these issues with you is similar to bringing Bernie to the Lord. For now impossible. Your mind is made up. You agree with the statists. America is not sliding into socialism as many on the right say. It is sliding rapidly into fascism. I’ve already given you all the evidence that proves this point. But evidence is meaningless to you. You live in a world of Bumper Stickers. You live in an idealized world created by the statists. For example, the economy will be stimulated if we provide Cash for Clunkers. Government control over healthcare will provide improved and lower cost healthcare for all. Government can go into debt at the rate of trillions per year without any negative effects on the economy. Government can grow to nearly 50% of total GDP without impacting the private sector. A total national debt of over $11 trillion going on to over $20 trillion in the next decade is not going destroy the value of the US dollar. Unfunded liabilities over $50 trillion (lowest estimate) does not mean the nation is bankrupt.
The current financial condition of the US would not have been possible under a sound monetary system. You believe in complete control of the money supply to a handful of men. You believe in the basic goodness of men. You believe that powerful wealthy men will always do what is the best interest of the people. What you believe is so incredibly foolish that I am left speechless.
Mike:” You live in an idealized world created by the statists.” It’s like Janice Rogers Brown said “Politicians no longer have positions they have photo-ops. To be or not to be is no longer the question. The question is: how do you feel.” Kash is a feeler not a thinker. Plus she doesn’t comprehend what she reads half the time.
“LBJ’s Great Society was to end poverty in our life time and after trillions of dollars spent, what do we have to show for it.” A lot less abject poverty in our country than there was 70 years ago. Almost no one dies of starvation in this country any more, although many children are still undernourished.
Paul: “Plus she doesn’t comprehend what she reads half the time.” I comprehend perfectly what you mean: that if I don’t agree with you, I must be dumb.
From http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarepoverty.htm “The historical evidence is clear: welfare reduces poverty, and the lack of it increases it. In the 1920s, fully half of all Americans could not make ends meet. Roosevelt’s New Deal programs had reduced poverty to about 20 percent in the 50s. Johnson’s Great Society reduced this to 11.1 percent by 1973. Since the rise of the corporate special interest system in 1975, individual welfare benefits have been shrinking, and poverty has been steadily rising, to over 15 percent today.”
MIke: From the same website, different article: “Since the war on poverty was declared in the early 60s, the U.S. has spent only $700 billion on AFDC and welfare, the two largest welfare programs for the poor by far. The inflated $5 trillion figure includes many middle class entitlement programs like student loans, school lunches, job training, etc. Although this is indeed social spending, it is not spent on the poor, and therefore can’t be used to argue against the war on poverty.”
Paul: “The question is: how do you feel.” Kash is a feeler not a thinker. Plus she doesn’t comprehend what she reads half the time.”
Most people that believe in the state is the solution to most of societies problems are idealistic in their thinking. If the proposed legislation sounds good then it is good, regardless of the outcome. Therefore in their minds when the government provides funds to help the poor with housing that will help the poor out of poverty. If the government provides food stamps to help them feed the family then that provides the means by which they can eventually beat the poverty cycle. If the government provides them with a welfare check to suppliment income, then the poor will be able to use the excess money to the benefit of their families. All this SOUNDS VERY GOOD, and it gives the kashes of the world a warm fuzzy. They are so compassionate and feel so good that through their efforts they are helping the poor. So after over $10 trillion spent to end poverty in America, why is it that the poor are still with us? The percentage of people living in poverty has not changed. We also know that in more than just a few families we now have a history of generation following generation in poverty. Yet we also know of people that come from other countries, that do not know the culture or the language, rising up and actually becoming very wealthy. Why are these immigrants, who are also racial minorities, able to rise up out of poverty and actually become more successful than Americans that have been here for generations?
I believe the answer to that lies in their state of mind. They come here with ambition and with a state of mind that if left alone they will succeed. They come from countries where oversized government oppresses them and only the privileged attain wealth. They believe in their God given talents and are determined to succeed. Contrast this with the helplessness and dependence created by our Welfare state. Welfare payments are alive and well in America. Instead of getting a welfare check we now have the “Earned Income tax credit” which pays low income workers for work they did not do. The cycle of dependence continues, and there is no incentive to “make a better life for yourself.” The government actually discourages personal advancement since should you attain better employment you will lose benefits.
Minority groups are constantly told that White Racism keep them subjugated and deny them rights. The poverty Pimps like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc. guarantee that the racial minorities continue to live in a slavery of the mind.
Back in the 1970s I lived in a community that received a large group of Vietnamese refugees. These people did not know the culture, they did not know the language, and many had their families disrupted by the Communist take over of their countries. There was also a large group of Cambodians that had suffered the killing fields. I knew young people that had seen family members (mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters) raped and / or murdered. They experienced things that reach the peak of what anyone would call trauma. I went to a graduation of the son of a friend in 80s. The Validictorian and Salutitorian were from Southeast Asia. The individuals graduating with honors we predominantly from these Asian immigrants. I know of one family, who raised their niece since her parents were killed, from the time they came to America. Within 1 year both parents were working, not receiving any aid what-so-ever, learning English and the young girl, who came here at the age of 10 had already moved out of English as a Second language class. The girl came here knowing NO English.
The aunt and uncle enrolled her in piano classes. By the time she was ready for high school, she received a Scholarship to very exclusive private school. She eventually received a full academic scholarship to Duke University. From there I lost track since I moved to another city.
So was this young lady a prodigy? Not really. She studied like no other student I ever knew. She did not start dating until she went to college. She spent most of her time in the library or practicing the piano. There was no TV in the home, not because they couldn’t afford it, but because the adults in the home saw it as a waste of time. The focus of this family, like the focus of so many Asians that came to this community was to advance within the nation that offered them all these opportunities. They took advantage of the opportunities, while many of our American poor are given the message that they need government to “make it,’ and if they don’t make it, it is not their fault. It is the fault of the racist that run the nation.
The statist are determined to keep the people enslaved…dependent on government. It is how they maintain their power. So the well intentioned people like kash get their warm fuzzies while government enslaves the nation. Oh I forgot, those that work and make this country what it is find themselves getting further and further behind as the state takes more and more from them. Between taxes and inflation, which is created by government, the fruits of our labor is stolen.
We are now in the end game as government is now growing exponentially. kash fails to see the danger and therefore she supports the very system responsible for the misery we are now experiencing and for the extreme misery to come. She believes that the ones that created the problem will now fix it by doing more of the same. She is the classic “useful idiot.”
“So after over $10 trillion spent to end poverty in America,” a ficitonal number, as I pointed out previously. “while many of our American poor are given the message that they need government to “make it,’ and if they don’t make it, it is not their fault. It is the fault of the racist that run the nation.” I don’t know anyone working with the poor who gives them that message. The programs I work with stress the importance of education and hard work to get out of the cycle of poverty.
Journalist H.L. Mencken understood overbearing government, the ignorant masses and the power of a few brave men:
“All government, of course, is against liberty. The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. Most people want security in this world, not liberty.”
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out… without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable. It doesn’t take a majority to make a rebellion; it takes only a few determined leaders and a sound cause.”
“All government, of course, is against liberty. The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. Most people want security in this world, not liberty.”
Hmmm, sounds like the Bush/Cheney years.
kash: “The programs I work with stress the importance of education and hard work to get out of the cycle of poverty.”
I guess this is why our inner city schools are such shining examples of academic scholarship. I guess the Black kids are just kidding when they tell those within their race they are “acting white” because they take books home, do their homework, and want to learn something. I guess the generational welfare families are just a myth.
You know full well that men like Jesse Jackson are poverty pimps. They promote a level of racism that does not exist. The school systems are designed to teach to the lowest denominator.
You live in Fanatasy Land. You believe that because you sit down with a handful of people and tell them, “yes you can” that they will. But even when you have poor people that want to move up, you have the obstacle of rotten schools in the way. Yet when the selfish conservatives suggest that these poor be given vouchers to send their kids to any school they wish, it is conservatives that are vilified.
kash, stop being a “Useful idiot.”
Government the thief….or should I say FDR the Thief. The following 2 part article explains much and how gold acts as a preserver of wealth.
FDR, Thief of America’s Gold
by Patrick Chkoreff
As Franklin D. Roosevelt was inaugurated as president on March 4, 1933, Americans were in a state of panic. Banks were failing every day, and people clamoured by the thousands to withdraw their money. Ordinarily they might have accepted paper money in the form of gold certificates, but people feared that the government might simply resort to printing worthless money to meet the massive withdrawal requests. They didn’t want paper. They wanted gold. Furthermore, people who had gold certificates rushed to redeem them for real gold.
In 1933, the U.S. dollar had a very precise definition. The government defined the dollar as 23.22 grains of gold. Since there are 480 grains to a troy ounce, this works out to about $20.67 per troy ounce.
This meant that if you had a $20 gold certificate, you could redeem it for roughly 1 troy ounce of gold. Each certificate bore this solemn statement: “This certifies that there have been deposited in the Treasury of the United States Twenty Dollars in Gold Coin payable to the bearer on demand.” There are two promises here. First, the gold is there waiting for you. Second, you’ll get the gold when you demand it.
So in March 1933, thousands of people decided to make the government honour its promise. They quickly found out that the government was lying.
Just two days after his inauguration, Roosevelt ordered a “bank holiday” closing all the banks in the country from Monday March 6 through Thursday March 9. He proclaimed that there was a “national emergency” caused by “heavy and unwarranted withdrawals of gold and currency” for the purpose of “hoarding.” Of course, “hoarding” simply means people holding on to their own money. Roosevelt called it “hoarding” to make it seem like evil or immature behaviour. It was the typical politician’s ploy of blaming the government’s woes on the people’s vices.
On March 9, the Senate passed the Emergency Banking Act after very little debate. This gave the Secretary of the Treasury the power to compel every person and business in the country to relinquish their gold and accept paper currency in exchange.
The next day, Friday March 10, Roosevelt issued Executive Order No. 6073, forbidding people from sending gold overseas and forbidding banks from paying out gold.
Pretty good for his first week in office. But wait, there’s more.
Part 2 America’s Gold Thief.
On April 5, Roosevelt issued Executive Order No. 6102. This was the order to confiscate everybody’s gold. It commanded everybody to deliver their gold and gold certificates to the Federal Reserve bank, where they would be paid in paper money. You could keep up to $100.00 in gold, but anything above that was illegal. Gold had become a controlled substance. Possession was punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and imprisonment for up to 10 years.
Now the only people with a claim to gold in the Treasury were foreigners holding dollars. Since he was on such a roll, Roosevelt decided to rip them off too. On January 31, 1934, Roosevelt issued another Executive Order. Here he declared that the dollar was now only 59.06% of its former gold quantum of 23.22 grains. Now the dollar was only worth 13.71 grains of gold.
Look at it from the point of view of one of these hapless foreigners. It used to cost you only $20.67 to get a troy ounce of gold. Now it cost you $35.00. The U.S. government, under the dictatorship of Roosevelt, had just stolen 40% of your money.
By burglarizing the rest of the world, Roosevelt made the Great Depression even Greater. It was more Global because he had impoverished millions of foreigners, and it was more Persistent because he had ruined the good credit of the United States.
Not bad for his first year in office.
Some have suggested that FDR had no choice because if he had allowed the “run” to continue, soon there would be no more gold in the U.S. Treasury to back the gold certificates.
But how could that be? Each gold certificate certified that there was a certain amount of gold in the Treasury payable to the bearer on demand. The law decreed that $20.67 would get you one troy ounce of gold, which was just sitting there in the vault waiting for you to “demand” it.
In his excellent 1935 book Monetary Mischief, George Robinson claims that these gold reserves really did exist. Maybe so, maybe not. Either way, FDR was not honouring the redemption promise. The U.S. was now running a con game, having printed “gold certificates” that in fact could not be redeemed for gold at all.
Imagine if e-gold or GoldMoney suddenly began issuing new digital gold grams without having the real gold grams to match them. That would be theft and counterfeiting. Certainly creating even more fictional gold grams would not be the solution to this problem. (Mike’s note: For those that do not know, GoldMoney is a checking account denominated in gold. You make a dollar deposit which is immediately turned into ounces of gold and you can write checks on your account. Your account is then debted for the amount of gold that your check represents. So if you write a check for $993, the current price of gold, one ounce is subtracted from your account.)
FDR engaged in theft and counterfeiting as a solution to a problem caused by theft and counterfeiting. A more honest solution would have been to make good on as many gold redemptions as possible, and then begin a massive liquidation of government assets to purchase gold on the open market until all redemptions were made. To avoid the pricing problems of sudden mass liquidations and mass gold purchases, the government might have offered gold bonds to those who would accept them. These bonds would be payable with interest in gold after a fixed time period. To people immediately demanding their gold, the government would have to tell them to wait, and then proceed quickly to round up enough gold to satisfy the request. I’m sure the people would have preferred to hear “hold on, we’re getting your money” than “screw you, we’re stealing your money.”
The sale of government assets would include office buildings, vehicles, huge tracts of land, etc. In other words, my solution would be: take every action to make good on all the gold redemptions. Do not steal the gold.
Some have said that FDR’s actions were necessary because a default on the redemption of paper currency would bankrupt the country, and not just the government, but all private debts as well.
But that’s just it–the government DID default on the redemption of paper currency, and it did bankrupt the country by deepening the depression and spreading it worldwide. Sadly, it did not bankrupt the government, only the indentured servants we like to call “citizens.” (Brother, can you spare a dime?)
I must emphasize that when the government devalued the dollar and confiscated gold, they WERE defaulting on their redemption obligations. They didn’t magically skirt the underlying hard reality just because some politicians signed some pieces of paper.
Some have said that FDR was faced with a dire national emergency, and did the only thing he knew how to do with the powers that had been granted to his new office.
To that I say: FDR was not granted these powers. He had no more legal authority to do what he did than my immigrant grandfather had. But that never stopped a president from doing anything to consolidate and maintain power. As a betrayer of the Constitution, FDR ranks right up there with Lincoln, LBJ and Nixon.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Chkoreff/chkoreff1.html
Here is impact of your fiat money at work. As more and more money is printed, enriching those closest to the new supply and bailout the millionaires that created the greatest financial crisis in the history of mankind, each dollar held will lose more value. Here kash and mherman is the system you support. When oil is back over $100 per bar. and bread is $3 or $4 per loaf, what will happen to the elderly on fixed incomes? What will happen to those most dependent on Social Security when the government formulas for COLAs leaves them with less and less buying power? What happens to these people when hyperinflation takes hold and all confidence in money is lost? WHY DO YOU SUPPORT EVIL ON THIS LEVEL? How will you respond when God asks, why you did not believe his admonition against “Diverse weights and measure.”? What will you say to Christ who has told you to be salt and light? How can you support the darkness created by Satan’s mimicking God’s money with Fiat money?
Hidden pockets of elderly said to be in poverty
19 minutes ago
By HOPE YEN
Associated Press Writer
(AP:WASHINGTON) The poverty rate among older Americans could be nearly twice as high as the traditional 10 percent level, according to a revision of a half-century-old formula for calculating medical costs and geographic variations in the cost of living.
The National Academy of Science’s formula, which is gaining credibility with public officials including some in the Obama administration, would put the poverty rate for Americans 65 and over at 18.6 percent, or 6.8 million people, compared with 9.7 percent, or 3.6 million people, under the existing measure. The original government formula, created in 1955, doesn’t take account of rising costs of medical care and other factors.
“It’s a hidden problem,” said Robin Talbert, president of the AARP Foundation, which provides job training and support to low-income seniors and is backing legislation that would adopt the NAS formula. “There are still many millions of older people on the edge, who don’t have what they need to get by.”
http://news.ino.com/headlines/?newsid=6896571728386790