Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?
Posted by truthtalklive on 14 August, 2009
This post was filed in Apologetics, Christian Teaching, Doctrine, Easter, Faith, Jesus Christ, Uncategorized and has 117 comments
If not, and you’re a Christian, then your faith is in vain.
2,000 years after the death of Jesus Christ can we know for sure?
Gary Habermas has dedicated his professional life to the examination of the relevant historical, philosophical and theological issues surrounding the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Dr. Habermas serves as Distinguished Research Professor and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia.
Today’s host is Alex Mcfarland, President of Southern Evangelical Seminary.
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117 Comments on “Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?”
Mind if I ask, how?
How did Jesus’ body systems begin working again?
When people are dead for an extended period of time, they tend to stay dead.
X: God raised Him from the dead. I don’t think the question is how. There are plenty of things we don’t ultimately know how they occur but we still believe they occur. I think the original question of did is the right one.
X: Jesus wasn’t just any body! Because He was born without sin his blood was not tainted with sin. He could havve actually lived forever……the way He was……because death could not have taken Him.
You see, He gave up His life….no one could take it from Him……He gave it up…..He prayed ”Father into your hands I commit my spirit”, and He died. Not because of the nails, not because of the cross, but because He gave He life up freely. You see, His body did not see corruption because of this. As King David said somewhere in the Psalms, speaking of Jesus prophetically. And because death could not hold Him, because you had to have sinned to earn death, (”the wages of sin is death”) He was able to rise again in a glorified, changed body, one that didn’t need the life of the blood, but the risen life of the Spirit.
He conquered death because He had not sinned to reap death.
Does this help?
I would re-phrase the question:
Do you ‘believe’ that Jesus rose from the dead?
Because it’s impossible to test that assertion empirically.
If Jesus existed he would have been a human being. The question should be “Did Human Beings Rise from the Dead?”.
I heard the guest today describe Christian “doubt” as coming mainly from emotional episodes (he mentioned several: the boss get mad at you; why do bad things happen to good people; why doesn’t God answer more prayers, and so on) when the truth is the opposite: that faith in God (or the Resurrection or faith healing, etc.) is the result of an emotional response to some stimulus.
Besides that, I thought the show was typical Macfarland style hucksterism.
I heard that ridiculous assertion Habermas made too that doubt comes from emotional episodes. As usual when Christianity has turned you world upside down you’ll say the complete opposite of the truth. Doubt comes from intellectual episodes, something thinkers have all the time. What’s the saying, the intelligent are always full of doubt and the stupid are always sure.
If you want to see Habermas get absolutely destroyed in a debate there is a video debate on the Internet between him and Ken Humphries the creator of the Jesusneverexisted.com website. The debate clearly shows how weak and really silly the case for a historical Jesus actually is. I don’t know how anyone can believe in Jesus after watching this debate.
Maz, that sounds really crazy.
You all dodged my question though.
X: I didn’t ”dodge” your question, I answered it the best way I could from what the scriptures tell me.
What more do you want to know? No one knows for sure what happened in that tomb when Jesus stood up and came out alive again.
What tomb? Where is this tomb? I thought this was the best attested event in history. There was tomb, no resurrecton, no Jesus to be resurrected. There’s way more evidence for the Tooth Fairy than there is this absurd fairy tale.
Its sort of like the same question as: HOW did God create the universe?
You really haven’t thought about “how” things happen.
Lets assume (and this is a serious assumption), that the scriptures are correct.
God needs a method of creation or resurrection. So, how?
#10-X: God needs a method of creation or resurrection. So, how?
I tend to think that everything makes sense, in the end. Whether the scientists are on to something or not remains unknown to me. The creationists typically rely on a “poof” – which leaves ‘the how’ a mystery – although most do require a time frame (based on Biblical interpretation).
I don’t think anyone would deny that God had a method…again, some insist it is a mystery (poof) with a time-table, others think a shadow of the method is apparent (usually involving an enormous time span). The first group must take offense at God using time – since He is infinitely everything good (strong/smart/etc), then He must not need time. The second group may see our existence in time as some sort of indicator that time (itself and logical sequences in time) is not a bad thing.
The relevant difference between the [main] two interpretations does seem to be time though. I don’t have a great problem with either. Mostly because I don’t care. I don’t see it as central to what I need to think about and tell others about…it is too auxiliary to worry about, because, I guess I’m overwhelmed with relevant topics.
X #10: ”You really haven’t thought about “how” things happen.”
Oh I have and I do. I have a very enquiring mind, that’s why I read a lot about the Universe, and most of that at the beginning was from evolutionary science books. It’s not very long ago that I had a lot of questions answered by Ministries like ”Answers in Genesis” and ”Creation on the web” among others.
I find things like time and space and the properties of gravity and light very intriguing. There are weirder things out there in Space than on this site! I also delved into Physics, though I didn’t get very far with that….too many equations!
b baggins: ”’The creationists typically rely on a “poof” – ”
Like the evolutionists rely on a Big Bang eh?!
Bernie,
Thanks for the recommendation on the debate. I watched it online. As I tracked the debate, I thought that, on the basis of argument and counter-argument, Habermas won the debate. In fact, Humphries looked quite foolish at times. My faith in Christ is still strong.
In the debate Gary Habermas mentioned Richard Bauckham. He has written a good book that is in line with the topic of this thread. The title is “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony.” If you are open to reading the other side, check it out.
X,
“Mind if I ask, how?
How did Jesus’ body systems begin working again?”
Christ’s resurrection body was not the same as his natural body. He was raised with what the Scriptures call a “spiritual body.” This doesn’t mean that it was immaterial, just that it is immortal, not dependent upon physical “body systems.” Read 1 Corinthians 15:35-49.
As to the “how.” God raised Him from the dead.
Maz: Like the evolutionists rely on a Big Bang eh?!
Here’s a quote from Stenger, “In general relativity, spacetime can be empty of matter or radiation and still contain energy stored in its curvature. Uncaused, random quantum fluctuations in a flat, empty, featureless spacetime can produce local regions with positive or negative curvature.”
Where did the spacetime come from, its curvature? Uncaused/random events aren’t logical.
In vacuum fluctuation physics – I would wonder since if there could be one Big Bang, then why wouldn’t the universe be subjected to additional big bangs constantly – at every point in spacetime? Why would we ever have a chance to exist – why/how is the universe sustaining any sort of stability if ever a “Big Bang” could occur uncaused/randomly/spontaneously… Or could the universe randomly be subject to a Big Anti-Bang where everything fluctuates out of existence?
So the creationists explain things with a God-backed poof, and the non-creationists (anti-God people) explain things with a random, uncaused poof. Explaining existence means creating a paradox. It is too mysterious, and seems to be beyond our comprehension.
I wonder what bearing consciousness has in the meaning of the universe – and the very fact that some people are driven to “serve God” [even till death] (like Jesus) – saying than humanity is not the way it is supposed to be (and that the straight and narrow is the way).
People like Bernie must say that humanity is the way it is supposed to be (since it couldn’t exist in any other manner – “the universe wills it”) – or, simply, that it doesn’t matter (because it’s all random and uncaused anyway).
JD42,
No honest person would say that Habermas won that debate. I wouldn’t expect you to you’re a Christian with a reckless disregard for the truth. Habermas spent the whole debate appealing to authority and what other people thought and could not present one historical fact to back up all his mumbo-jumbo. Still Humphreys could have done a much better job. He conceded too many points to Habermas that should have been challenged. I would have wiped the floor with Habermas and he would have left in tears just like the fundies do on this blog when they read my posts. Here’s what one critic said:
Like so many “debates” between atheists and Xtians, no matter how ridiculous the subject of the debate is…as in this case…the Xtian ‘walks’ away maintaining the notion that, either they won the debate, or, remain totally unscathed, so to speak, from the encounter; ready to continue on, unabated, with their ridiculous delusion intact. Case in point…the recent Post RE Richard Dawkins and “Quote Mining”. My conclusion…and reason for blabbing on all this is…similar to the Site highlighted in this Post…no matter what is pointed out to these brainwashed types, based on things like…faulty reasoning, contradictions with modern Science, obvious internal Scriptural contradictions, recent historical and archaeological debunking, known blatant fraud…you name it…nothing shakes them out of their terminal stupor.
Humphreys did not challenge the assumptions behind the timeline that Habermas employs. Specifically, he did not insist that Habermas provide any direct evidence for the occurrence of the resurrection at the time and location he assumes as the focal point of Christianity (the “Big Bang”, as it is often called). For example, Humphreys did not ask where or when *Paul* (his star witness) thought the resurrection occurred. Humphreys did not ask for specific extra biblical references that pinned down such an event in time and space. Hence, Humphreys acquiesced in a major part of the fantasy from the start (i.e. the baseless assertion that everyone believed the same fantastic story about Jesus within a very short time of the supposed event).
Humphreys did not challenge Habermas’ tactic of appealing to points that have been conceded by skeptics. Just because a skeptic accepts an assertion concerning Jesus, it does not make it so. Lots of skeptics ALSO hold unwarranted beliefs, as many have never investigated all the common presuppositions concerning Jesus. Most skeptics reject the supernatural claims surrounding Jesus, but relatively few are aware of how scant the historical evidence is for ANY aspect of Christianity. Humphreys hinted at this several times, but never insisted that they discuss the REASONS that certain historical facts are accepted by skeptics. In effect, he allowed Habermas to appeal to the opinion of “scholars” without challenging the basis of those opinions.
This is what I would have asked Habermas to do: Pick one “fact” concerning Jesus that can be precisely located in time and space, and tell me what evidence supports it. I do not want to hear about the credentials of those who hold this fact to be true–I want the know what *specific* objective evidence there is to support it. I believe that such an approach would begin to peel away the layers of make-believe that surround the Jesus story. The question is whether there is anything left that is well-attested historically after doing so. In my considered opinion, the answer is “No”.
JD42 Obviously you have never visited the Jesusneverexisted website. Here is a testimonial from a happy ex-Christian:
Jesusneverexisted.com is one of the most fearless, courageous, no holds barred, broken beer bottle eviscerating smack down sites out there. Ken Humphrey slaps Jehovah god and all his mafia chiefs all around the octagon. Imagine the fearless Col. Robert Ingersoll using modern technology and bit of World Wide Wrestling Federation theatrics to make it fun to be a Buy Bull scholar.
For those of you that watched the debate and thought it was useful but hardly jaw dropping and wanted more flying dropkicks and triple reverse neck cranks, you’ve got to check out Humphrey’ in his real element: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com .
I had forgotten just how important his site was in helping me detox from the insane bible cult I was raised in, and it has anti-viral powers for anyone that might find themselves slipping back into insanity when surrounded by family and community members that are determined to re-contaminate you.
I’ll be by your site Ken to drop off a donation because I forgot just important your contribution was to my recovery . And while times are tough for everyone it seems, may I encourage my other ex-Christians to kick a few bucks to ANY site that has made a big difference in helping unchain your mind.
X,
“Mind if I ask, how?
How did Jesus’ body systems begin working again?”
Christ’s resurrection body was not the same as his natural body. He was raised with what the Scriptures call a “spiritual body.” This doesn’t mean that it was immaterial, just that it is immortal, not dependent upon physical “body systems.” Read 1 Corinthians 15:35-49.
Answer: You see x? Whenever the Christian is cornered without any rational explanation for something they can always invoke God’s incredible boogy magic. How could an impossible occurrence happen? Why God did! That is not an explanation it’s an offense to any thinking person. Notice the amount of evidence JD42 gives for his explanation. Exactly none. He expects you to lapse into the same religious stupor he’s in and just believe because other people do.
b baggins: What Stenger said does not answer the question. There was no curviture, no space, no time, no matter in ”the beginning”. In fact once there was no beginning…..no time. So what was there? How did space, time and matter come into existence from nothing and nowhere. (That is what scientists have said……that there was no space, time or matter….nothing……. and then….BOOM!!!!!)
Answer: There was God! This is a fact some people find hard to accept, but none the less it is actually the only answer you can have, otherwise it all sounds ridiculous.
Where did the spacetime come from, its curvature? Uncaused/random events aren’t logical.
Boris says: This stupid statement by bagins is a perfect example of creationist anti-logic. Simply us not knowing the cause of something doesn’t mean it is uncaused. Where’s the logic behind believing in invisible magic fairies bagins? Someone who tortures logic the way you do has no business appealing to logic.
In vacuum fluctuation physics – I would wonder since if there could be one Big Bang, then why wouldn’t the universe be subjected to additional big bangs constantly – at every point in spacetime? Why would we ever have a chance to exist – why/how is the universe sustaining any sort of stability if ever a “Big Bang” could occur uncaused/randomly/spontaneously… Or could the universe randomly be subject to a Big Anti-Bang where everything fluctuates out of existence?
Answer: There’s nothing funnier or more ridiculous than listening to or reading a creationist talk about science. Except maybe when they talk about how all people must respect the authority of their paper idol on bended knee.
So the creationists explain things with a God-backed poof, and the non-creationists (anti-God people) explain things with a random, uncaused poof. Explaining existence means creating a paradox. It is too mysterious, and seems to be beyond our comprehension.
Answer: Just about everything is beyond your comprehension bagins. You are as scientifically ignorant as any person I’ve ever come in contact with. Even a third grader would not make the stupid statements you make about science. Creationists don’t explain anything by invoking God’s magical booginess. Unless they can tell us how God did something all their talk explains exactly nothing. Therefore all the creationists are doing is offering the same asinine long debunked religious explanations they gave thousands of years ago.
I wonder what bearing consciousness has in the meaning of the universe – and the very fact that some people are driven to “serve God” [even till death] (like Jesus) – saying than humanity is not the way it is supposed to be (and that the straight and narrow is the way).
Answer: Let’s see you demonstrate how minds, intelligence and consciousness could even exist without matter for them to exist in. I know, I know, God in all his magical booginess can do whatever he wants. Except exist. ROFL!
People like Bernie must say that humanity is the way it is supposed to be (since it couldn’t exist in any other manner – “the universe wills it”) – or, simply, that it doesn’t matter (because it’s all random and uncaused anyway).
Answer: Nothing is “supposed to be” a certain way. Creationists cannot shake their delusion that everything in the universe must have been planned so things are the way they are supposed to be. Uh, except for the supposed fact that a woman listened to a magic talking snake, ate from a magical tree and now the entire universe is all messed up because of that one incident! Sure.
Let me just say here, that God needs no ”boogy magic” to do anything, He is a Supernatural Being with Supernatural Power. HE IS GOD.
There are none so blind as those who don’t want to see.
Answer: Once again Maz misrepresents (a nice word for lies about) what scientists say, this time about the universe. Scientists tell us that the mass-energy that comprises the universe always existed just in a different form prior to the Big Bang. Science therefore denies an ex nihilo creation of the universe. It is the creationists and creationists alone who claim the universe came from nothing at all. Observation tells us that is impossible. Whenever something is proved to be impossible the Christian instantly invokes God’s magical booginess and says, “Anything is possible with God!” Not true. It has been proved beyond any doubt whatsoever that the Christian God could not possibly exist. That’s a fact. Prove me wrong creationists. ROFL! The party’s over for Christianity. The cat is out of the bag.
Where did the spacetime come from, its curvature? Uncaused/random events aren’t logical.
Boris says: This stupid statement…is a perfect example…[, “]Simply us not knowing the cause of something doesn’t mean it is uncaused.[”]
What a foolish response, ha-ha! Now, what is the cause of the universe? Where did spacetime come from? You only appeal to logical fallacies, a sorry attempt at silencing questions that expose your ignorance. Really, your answer sounds like part of a dumb blond joke.
Dudley says: There’s nothing funnier or more ridiculous than listening to or reading a creationist talk about science. Except maybe when they talk about how all people must respect the authority of their paper idol on bended knee.
Care to bring some logic to the table. You may as well throw confetti at me (a wet blanket) – or cry like a baby.
So the creationists explain things with a God-backed poof, and the non-creationists (anti-God people) explain things with a random, uncaused poof. Explaining existence means creating a paradox. It is too mysterious, and seems to be beyond our comprehension.
Bernie says: Just about everything is beyond your comprehension bagins. …. Creationists don’t explain anything by invoking God’s magical booginess.
You haven’t shown comprehension – because you failed to bring any logic to the table. Bernies(Dudleys/Borises) don’t explain anything…silly kid, that one.
Bernie: Let’s see you demonstrate how minds, intelligence and consciousness could even exist without matter for them to exist in. I know, I know, God in all his magical booginess can do whatever he wants. Except exist. ROFL!
Let’s see you demonstrate where spacetime came from, that allegedly led to matter, minds, intelligence and consciousness.
People like Bernie must say that humanity is the way it is supposed to be (since it couldn’t exist in any other manner – “the universe wills it”) – or, simply, that it doesn’t matter (because it’s all random and uncaused anyway).
Bernie: Nothing is “supposed to be” a certain way. Creationists cannot shake their delusion that everything in the universe must have been planned so things are the way they are supposed to be. Uh, except for the supposed fact that a woman listened to a magic talking snake, ate from a magical tree and now the entire universe is all messed up because of that one incident! Sure.
Bernie admits it again and again….Hitler, murderers, rapists, all the child deaths he mentions…these things are all perfectly acceptable/good to him in his mysterious, unexplained universe. Now Bernie wants to take control of the world and create such a paradise for himself, whereas Christians focus on creating a very different paradise for other people.
Hey, Bernie…lets speculate on what the cause of the universe was. It is better than sitting on your hands.
How about God?
What a foolish response, ha-ha! Now, what is the cause of the universe? Where did spacetime come from? You only appeal to logical fallacies, a sorry attempt at silencing questions that expose your ignorance. Really, your answer sounds like part of a dumb blond joke.
Answer: You don’t even know what a logical fallacy is or you wouldn’t keep making them, Mr. Circular, Slippery Slope ad hoc post hoc ergo propter hoc, ad hominem, appeal to authority pleader. What a hoot! Name one logical fallacy I’ve made and give us the Latin name for it. Hahaha.
Care to bring some logic to the table. You may as well throw confetti at me (a wet blanket) – or cry like a baby.
Answer: I am using logic to cut your silly posts to shreds right now. That’s what logic does to people like you.
You haven’t shown comprehension – because you failed to bring any logic to the table. Bernies(Dudleys/Borises) don’t explain anything…silly kid, that one.
Answer: You’re the one who says they can’t comprehend the universe so God must have spoken it into existence. You can’t comprehend life so God must have made it out of his magic breath and some dirt and a rib. You can’t comprehend the human condition so it must be a woman’s doing for listening to a magic talking snake. And then you ask ME to bring logic to the table and tell me I haven’t shown comprehension. Sure.
Let’s see you demonstrate where spacetime came from, that allegedly led to matter, minds, intelligence and consciousness.
Answer: Why don’t you ask a scientist that question or get a book on the subject? We both know why. Because you won’t like the answer you get because it won’t contain any reference God. Science doesn’t prove things anyway. It disproves them and the best explanation left is the standing explanation until something better comes along. Science has soundly disproved creationism and Intelligent Design magic. Science has totally refuted the Bible, the existence of the Christian God and all important Christian doctrines and dogmas. Welcome to the 21rst Century.
Bernie admits it again and again….Hitler, murderers, rapists, all the child deaths he mentions…these things are all perfectly acceptable/good to him in his mysterious, unexplained universe. Now Bernie wants to take control of the world and create such a paradise for himself, whereas Christians focus on creating a very different paradise for other people.
Answer: Where exactly did I admit such a thing? When did anyone admit to such a thing? Of course no one thinks Hitler, murderers, rapists or all the child deaths are acceptable. Neither do I want to take control of the world. This is a good example of the depths fundamentalist Christians will stoop to when they get backed into a corner by their own ridiculous assertions. bagins has to resort to outright lies, defamation of character, slander and other ad hominem attacks because once again he has no real argument against anything I really said or anything I really think. Once again his true nastiness and reckless disregard for the truth that is present in every religious fundamentalist I’ve ever come in contact with bubbles to the surface. You don’t have to push to hard to see the evil and dishonesty inside every creationist. The most immoral, unethical, nasty, dishonest people in the world want to tell the rest of us we should all be like them!
Hey, Bernie…lets speculate on what the cause of the universe was. It is better than sitting on your hands. How about God?
Answer: Calling our ignorance God has never led anywhere. Friedrich Nietzche pointed out that: “God is a gross answer, an indelicacy against us thinkers – at bottom merely a gross prohibition for us: you shall not think!”
Oh, well, Bernie is too crazy to talk to. You’re a funny fellow, I wonder how you’d act in person.
Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bernie is the biggest fundamentalist on this site – playing practical jokes. Ok, ok Bernie, now we understand that you just play a wacky character. He must be a real classy gent in everyday life.
Bernie: Nothing is “supposed to be” a certain way.
Here’s where I based my nasty, immoral, unethical, dishonest [piggly-wiggly] comment about you.
Re: Nazi supporter – Bernie: Where exactly did I admit such a thing?
My true nastiness was really showing when I took you at your word, right – hah. You remind me of the mad hatter…a truly hilarious character from Alice in Wonderland.
If things aren’t supposed to be any particular way – then ANYTHING GOES – EVERYTHING IS ACCEPTABLE. That’s how I tied you back to Hitler, rapists, and so on. That’s rock solid logic bro, so I don’t know what you’re talking about…
b baggins: ”You haven’t shown comprehension – because you failed to bring any logic to the table. Bernies(Dudleys/Borises) don’t explain anything…silly kid, that one.”
You are so right with what you say…..it is all anti-Christian rhetoric from the Bernie’s/Boris’s and Dudley’s of this world. All rant and not real intelligent debate. And they have the audacity to call us crazy and illogical!
”Oh, well, Bernie is too crazy to talk to.”
You’ve noticed!
And #25…..Right on!! Anything goes with these kind of people. Reminds me of that verse….”they do what’s right in their own eyes.”
This is amusing to read, but not very productive.
Bernie post 17,
Remember Bernie, they are not talking about where the Sun “goes down to sleep every night” until the morning time, or the exploits of Atilla the Hun, or anything else that science can be used to prove or disprove, they are talking about Jesus Christ. Because of that, such faith-based answers can actually have merit and apply.
bagins,
If things aren’t supposed to be any particular way – then ANYTHING GOES – EVERYTHING IS ACCEPTABLE. That’s how I tied you back to Hitler, rapists, and so on. That’s rock solid logic bro, so I don’t know what you’re talking about…
Answer: I thought you didn’t make logical fallacies. You just made the Slippery Slope fallacy, non sequitur and a couple others all in one sentence. It doesn’t follow that because the universe is random and with no purpose that ANYTHING GOES – EVERYTHING IS ACCEPTABLE. That is anarchy and no one wants to live in that kind of society. You can’t understand why you should be an ethical person without the threat of eternal damnation. That’s pitiful and reflective of some very bad parenting and education.
Adolph Hitler was a devout Bible believing creationist who disallowed the teaching of evolutionary theory in the German public schools and instead indoctrinated the German public school students with Christianity and biblical creationism. The exact same thing you would do in the United States if you had the power. Adolph Hitler repeatedly credited his inspiration for his anti-Semitism to his anti-Semitic hero Martin Luther, the founder Protestantism, YOUR religion. If anyone on this blog has a whole lot in common with Adolph Hitler it would YOU. Same religion, same view of creation and hatred of science, same God, same love for Jesus – I’m trying to figure out if there’s really any important difference between you and Hitler at all. I don’t appreciate you tying me in with rapists either. Your Bible God not only allowed rape he actually commanded it several times. And where is any command against rape to be found in the Bible anyway? If someone took your Bible literally they would most certainly think rape was not only acceptable they’d often think it was divinely ordained. I think we know enough about the Catholic priesthood to know that this is definitely true too. That’s rock solid logic bro, and I do know what you’re talking about… and it’s all a bunch of lies, false accusations, character attacks, fallacies and nonsense.
Those of you arguing with Bernie, remember that he also does not believe that Shakespeare necessarily existed or Socrates, largely based on the same extreme skepticism he employs to deny the existence of Jesus and Paul. So really, don’t let his deliberately hostile style get under your skin. He makes Thomas look credulous by comparison, and I don’t think any of us would trade places with him, for all his self-proclaimed intellectual powers.
Kash: Absolutely not. I am SO glad I came to know the Lord 37 years ago. Every day I feel thankful that He revealed His love to me. But my heart was open for the truth to enter, even from a child somehow I knew there was a God somewhere! But some have their minds and hearts so closed that nothing…..not even natural human feeling seems to go in or come out. Such I think is the Bernie’s, Boris’s and Dudley’s of this world. So sad.
Kash,
Many English literature critics hold that the different styles of writing are one indication that the works of Shakespeare were not all written by the same person. Also they appear to have been written over a much longer than period than one person could have lived let alone been a productive writer.
My Greek teacher in high school told the class Socrates was a fictional character, a mouthpiece for Plato. She demonstrated how the narratives about him had to be fictional because of the dialog in them. Honest historians won’t touch Socrates for the same reason they won’t touch the Jesus story. Historians need evidence to base their histories on and there isn’t any for either on of these figures.
Yes, I know about these “out of the mainstream” opinions. Shakespeare’s genius is as difficult for you to accept as Christ’s resurrection. I am surprised that you are convinced of your own existence, given the fact that all of your perceptions are only yours and can not be independently verified through some other perception.
“Honest historians won’t touch Socrates for the same reason they won’t touch the Jesus story.” You define “honest histortians” as those who agree with you, apparently.
BTW, Socrates was written about by Thucydides, Aristophanes, Callias, Eupolis, Telecleides, and Xenophon, as well as by Plato. All of these were his contemporaries. Did your high schol teacher believe this was a conspiracy? What other conspiracies did she teach about?
Kash,
You know that evidence for Christ’s existence outside the Bible is non-existent. Forget everything that is written in the Bible about Jesus for a minute. Then tell me what you could write about Christ exactly. You know as well as I do what Christian apologists list as their best 4 extra-biblical sources for a historical Jesus: Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonius. Given that the golden paragraph about Jesus in Josephus is widely accepted by even conservative Christian scholars to be fake and a very bad one what information could we gather exactly from 3 second century historians none of whom even mention Jesus of Nazareth by name? No historians have any other better sources other than the ones I just mentioned. So what exactly could a historian possibly write about Jesus based on concrete evidence from outside the Bible?
“So what exactly could a historian possibly write about Jesus based on concrete evidence from outside the Bible?” But that is like saying, what exactly could a historian write about Shakespeare outside of his plays? It is an unfair condition. Even if you dismiss the gospels in their entirety, there are still the letters of Paul (and the pseudonymous letters) that were in circulation by the end of the first century, because they are referred to and quoted from by multiple early church fathers dating from the late first and early second century. To deny that Jesus ever existed is to deny that Peter and Paul existed, and to deny that Peter and Paul existed is to deny that Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp. Or to argue that the Apostolic Fathers – who argued amongst themselves and disagreed on many points of theology – got together and made it all up. Seems unlikely, since if they had conspired to make it up they would hardly then disagree about what they had made up.
“So what exactly could a historian possibly write about Jesus based on concrete evidence from outside the Bible?” But that is like saying, what exactly could a historian write about Shakespeare outside of his plays? It is an unfair condition.
Answer: Shakespeare isn’t a good example because we actually don’t have any evidence for this person. But we do have evidence for people who were contemporary with the time Jesus supposedly existed and plenty of it, enough to write a history of them. Julius Caesar for example and there are many others.
Even if you dismiss the gospels in their entirety, there are still the letters of Paul (and the pseudonymous letters) that were in circulation by the end of the first century, because they are referred to and quoted from by multiple early church fathers dating from the late first and early second century.
Answer: The letters of Paul mention nothing about a historical Jesus and I do not think the person or persons who wrote them believed in a historical Jesus either but rather a cosmic Christ figure that had been around the Near East for thousands of years under many guises. In fact I’m sure of this. There are no mentions of anything in the gospels by Paul. He’s not talking about the Jesus of the gospels at all and I think you know this too. Where are the healings, parables, miracles, disciples, stories, Virgin Birth, Mary, Joseph, Nazareth, angry Jews, Pilate or anything about the supposed person of Jesus in the letters of Paul? Nowhere.
To deny that Jesus ever existed is to deny that Peter and Paul existed, and to deny that Peter and Paul existed is to deny that Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp. Or to argue that the Apostolic Fathers – who argued amongst themselves and disagreed on many points of theology – got together and made it all up. Seems unlikely, since if they had conspired to make it up they would hardly then disagree about what they had made up.
Answer: All you know about early church history are fabrications made by Eusebius. That’s the party line for all Christians and its as phony as a 3 dollar bill. The disciples are fictional characters, part of the story. There were no disciples, no Peter and the Paul described in Acts certainly is a fictional character. How anyone can take Acts as historical with all of its ridiculous claims is beyond me. While Clement may have existed most of the literature attributed to him has been proved to be forgeries. Christianity is truly founded on a mountain of lies and forgeries.
I think you would have to read Paul with a deliberate attempt to deny Jesus’ existence to claim that Paul didn’t believe Jesus was a flesh and blood man who was crucified and resurrected. Romans 5:17, 6:1-10, 1 Corinthians 15 etc. “All you know about early church history are fabrications made by Eusebius.” So Eusebius forged the letter 1 Clement, the Didache, the letters of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Magnesians, Tralliuns, Romans, etc. Eusebius forged Polycarps letters to the Philipians. What about Irenaeus? Did he not exist or was he part of the conspiracy?
Bernie: It doesn’t follow that because the universe is random and with no purpose that ANYTHING GOES – EVERYTHING IS ACCEPTABLE. That is anarchy and no one wants to live in that kind of society.
If the universe is random/purposeless, then what do we appeal to – in order to prevent anything from going and from everything being acceptable? Don’t appeal to popularity again or arrogantly speak for everyone – as you did just after mentioning anarchy.
Don’t try to pull a fast one again, please. You’re wasting time. See, the problem is you have just reiterated the blank that must be filled. You failed to provide a solution to the problem. Like I said, Bernies (Dudleys/Borises) don’t explain anything.
So, by default your association with (and approval of) Nazis, murderers, and rapists stands…
Just once I would like a thread to play out without one side or the other trying to associate their ideological opponent with “Nazis” or “Hitler.” It is ridiculous and intellectually lazy. It is tarring with a broad brush, and does nothing to advance one’s ideas or foster meaningful conversation.
Good night.
BTW, Baggins, that wasn’t pointed at you specificially, as you are certainly not the only one to drag Hitler or Nazi comparisons into unrelated conversations.
bagins,
You never learn. You’re about to get your feelings hurt again.
If the universe is random/purposeless, then what do we appeal to – in order to prevent anything from going and from everything being acceptable?
Answer: Common sense, something you’re very short on. No wonder you don’t trust it.
Don’t appeal to popularity again or arrogantly speak for everyone – as you did just after mentioning anarchy.
Answer: You’re the one who arrogantly claims to speak for God. A God that science has shown doesn’t even exist.
Don’t try to pull a fast one again, please. You’re wasting time. See, the problem is you have just reiterated the blank that must be filled. You failed to provide a solution to the problem. Like I said, Bernies (Dudleys/Borises) don’t explain anything.
Answer: What probelm exactly? The only problem is your lack of understanding. A purposeless universe has no bearing on what purpose humans give themselves. You are so philosophically infantile but then philosophy and religion don’t mix.
So, by default your association with (and approval of) Nazis, murderers, and rapists stands…
Answer: That is just stupid. I don’t approve any of that stuff and you know it. But I did prove that you have no moral grounds whatsoever to oppose anything Hitler did, because according to the Bible your God did much worse over a much longer period of time to many more people and for the exact same reason: unbelief in sectarian dogma; and when your God didn’t kill personally he had his chosen people who were very much like the Nazis with their religious theocracy, prejudice and racism kill, rape and plunder for him; no moral ground to oppose murderers or rapists because your Bible God often condones both of those. So on what grounds would you oppose murder, rape and your dear like-minded brother in Christ Adolph Hitler, because you certainly can’t use the Bible to oppose those things?
Look how desperate you always become when your stupid posts are mocked for every one else to laugh at. No one can be associated with that kind of scum you mentioned by default. Every time I crush your ego with more comments you lash out with insults and outright lies. You ought to either learn how to take whipping in a debate or just keep your yap shut. Adults are conversing on this blog so there’s no room for your kind of brainless comments anyway. You have never had anything intelligent to say on this blog and you never will. Say goodbye while there’s something left of your ego and your tattered belief system. Next time I won’t be so easy on you.
Kash #32….:-)
That should have been: Kash #32
Baggins: Please ignore Bernie’s increasingly abusive posts. You wrote, “If the universe is random/purposeless, then what do we appeal to – in order to prevent anything from going and from everything being acceptable?” That is actually a legitimate question and one that both secular and religious scholars debate intelligently all of the time. Bernie’s answer of “common sense” begs the question: where does common sense come from? What about when it is not so “common”? (For instance, the current culture wars in this country show that one man’s common sense is another man’s idiocy, and vice versa!) I would answer that if you do not accept a divine source of morality or absolutes, you must turn to something akin to Carl Jung’s archetypes of the unconscious. But even there, one might claim that these “archetypes” are actually deep wired connections with the “universal absolute” (how is that for a utilitarian definition of God?) A strict materialist would say those archetypes can be explained by evolutionary biology (THe Selfish Gene, etc) For me, that does not suffice. There is more to consciousness than biology, I believe. (On an aside note, that is why people who are “brain dead” for a while during surgery have memories of what is happening while the surgery is progressing)
Baggins: Please ignore Bernie’s increasingly abusive posts.
Answer: How should I respond to someone who associates me with Adolph Hitler, murders and rapists? This guy actually associates anyone who accepts a naturalistic explanation for the existence of the universe with Hitler, murderers and rapists. bagins has no basis for this stupid statement. It reflects the ignorant, prejudicial and hateful way fundamentalist Christians think about anyone who isn’t a member of their religious cult.
You wrote, “If the universe is random/purposeless, then what do we appeal to – in order to prevent anything from going and from everything being acceptable?” That is actually a legitimate question and one that both secular and religious scholars debate intelligently all of the time.
Answer: No religious “scholar” is capable of intelligent debate. People who believe in magic and fairies have no right to call themselves “scholars” any more than creationists have in calling themselves “scientists.” Theology is the study of nothing, it isn’t even a subject, and it has absolutely no connection whatsoever with the real world.
Bernie’s answer of “common sense” begs the question: where does common sense come from? What about when it is not so “common”? (For instance, the current culture wars in this country show that one man’s common sense is another man’s idiocy, and vice versa!) I would answer that if you do not accept a divine source of morality or absolutes, you must turn to something akin to Carl Jung’s archetypes of the unconscious.
Answer: You are wrong. People don’t have to turn anywhere just because they don’t accept absurd magical based explanations for something like human intelligence. We have a very plausible mechanism for the development of “common sense” or intelligence – Darwinian selection. This is why theistic evolution is just a crazy as creationism. You know you can’t deny evolutionary theory but you think you can pick through it and accept some of it and deny whatever makes it look like the truly is no God. It doesn’t work that way. There’s no room for goofy magical explanations in evolutionary theory or any place else in science. If you can’t accept a scientific explanation for something like common sense then you might as well reject all science like your creationist brothers and sisters do.
But even there, one might claim that these “archetypes” are actually deep wired connections with the “universal absolute” (how is that for a utilitarian definition of God?) A strict materialist would say those archetypes can be explained by evolutionary biology (THe Selfish Gene, etc) For me, that does not suffice. There is more to consciousness than biology, I believe.
Answer: Based on what exactly? I’ll tell you what: Christian superstitions and nothing else.
(On an aside note, that is why people who are “brain dead” for a while during surgery have memories of what is happening while the surgery is progressing)
Answer: People who get put under by anesthesia are far from brain dead. Depending on the drug they are in varying states of consciousness and this is why they sometimes remember some details of their operation. Someone like Terry Shivo had a brain that was totally unable to remember what was going on around her because it wasn’t picking up on anything. Terry Shivo was brain dead. That’s why the conservatives felt such a connection to her by the way. She was one of them.
Bernie post 19, 23, and 42,
I think that your being a little too harsh Bernie. If you think that Baggins is wrong, then why not try and encourage him to learn about such topics some more, give him helpful insight and recommend some good sources to study from, instead of insults which may turn him away from scientific inquiries?
I appreciate the people calling Bernie off, but I’m stubborn, so I have to feel this one out a little further.
Bernie: bagins, You never learn. You’re about to get your feelings hurt again.
I’m sure I will get my feelings hurt, since that is your specialty (as an intellectual/naturalist).
Re: what to appeal to in random universe – Bernie: Common sense, something you’re very short on. No wonder you don’t trust it.
Care to explain?
Re: falling into fallacy – Bernie: You’re the one who arrogantly claims to speak for God. A God that science has shown doesn’t even exist.
I don’t claim to speak for God, but I do want to hear what God says. Your next sentence is nonsense.
Re: failture to explain – Bernie: What probelm exactly? The only problem is your lack of understanding. A purposeless universe has no bearing on what purpose humans give themselves. You are so philosophically infantile but then philosophy and religion don’t mix.
EXACTLY! I don’t understand, which is why I’m asking you to explain. Instead you resort to weak attacks. Be a pal Bernie, and explain to me what you believe, and stop insulting me.
Re: Nazis, murders, rapists – Bernie: That is just stupid. I don’t approve any of that stuff and you know it.
How could I know it? You haven’t explained what you appeal to! You mentioned common sense, but that doesn’t help a hick like me.
Bernie: So on what grounds would you oppose murder, rape and your dear like-minded brother in Christ Adolph Hitler, because you certainly can’t use the Bible to oppose those things?
I oppose these things because God created this universe. I have no place destroying His creation. The only time I would step in is if someone (evil) was destroying His creation, then it would be my duty (I think) to do what I can to protect His creation. This is what happened with Old Testament Israelites I believe, but I wasn’t there to understand all the supporting details – I give them the benefit of the doubt.
Bernie: Look how desperate you always become when your stupid posts are mocked for every one else to laugh at. No one can be associated with that kind of scum you mentioned by default. Every time I crush your ego with more comments you lash out with insults and outright lies. You ought to either learn how to take whipping in a debate or just keep your yap shut. Adults are conversing on this blog so there’s no room for your kind of brainless comments anyway. You have never had anything intelligent to say on this blog and you never will. Say goodbye while there’s something left of your ego and your tattered belief system. Next time I won’t be so easy on you.
You would enjoy crushing other people’s egos, because you believe your own takes precedence. It’s true, I “never learn” from people like you who are focused on crushing me, rather than teaching me. The scum I mentioned is a product of your way of thinking, and to this point you haven’t been able to explain your way out of it. I do lash out at you extensively, and I will only increase my grip on you until you decide to run…then I’ll let you go. I can’t stop debating when I haven’t lost. You may have whipped me (insulted me), but you haven’t explained how murders/rapes/etc are bad – what do you appeal to? True, I am not an adult yet, but I will not give up on getting an answer out of you.
So the naturalist condemns me to stupidity for eternity, yet he whines about God punishing people for eternity. What a hypocrite you are Bernie. You tell me to say goodbye, but I say hello…I don’t care about my ego, I care about God. So go ahead and do your best, and if God allows it then so be it…give me your best shot naturalist.
Baggins, if I were a Christian man, I might recommend to you the message of 1stPeter 2:12[smile].
I agree John, and I hope I’m not being too harsh on Bernie.
Bernie appears to have the air of a self-made man, and worships his creator devoutly, ha, ha.
Seriously, I don’t know if Bernie’s on thin ice here or not with the Moderator[they may be allowing him to stay here just because he's making things more interesting than usual, I can only guess. I have seen someone get banned for less offensive comments.]but don’t fight fire with more fire. Be ice instead, cool and solid, allowing insults to slip over and away, if you know what I mean.
Goodnight.
I’m sure I will get my feelings hurt, since that is your specialty (as an intellectual/naturalist).
Answer: No your feelings get hurt in a debate involving your religion because adopting religious beliefs is not an intellectual decision it’s one based on strictly emotions only. I don’t think with my emotions so I don’t get my feelings hurt in these kinds of arguments.
Care to explain?
Answer: You’re a creationist so you surrendered reason, logic and common sense at the altar of religious superstitions a long time ago.
I don’t claim to speak for God, but I do want to hear what God says. Your next sentence is nonsense.
Answer: Apparently God doesn’t say anything anymore. God stopped talking the same time man figured out how to write history. Amazing coincidence huh? You people just overlook the most obvious clues that your God is an invention of ancient superstitious minds.
EXACTLY! I don’t understand, which is why I’m asking you to explain. Instead you resort to weak attacks. Be a pal Bernie, and explain to me what you believe, and stop insulting me.
Answer: Believe about what exactly? I don’t have any beliefs that I won’t challenge or change based on evidence. You do. I do believe that the universe and everything in it including life has a naturalistic explanation either waiting to be discovered or further expounded on.
How could I know it? You haven’t explained what you appeal to! You mentioned common sense, but that doesn’t help a hick like me.
Answer: I appeal to nature and the study of nature – science.
I oppose these things because God created this universe. I have no place destroying His creation.
Answer: Suppose for a minute that God did not create the universe but rather Mother Nature did. Would you then have an excuse to destroy things in the universe?
The only time I would step in is if someone (evil) was destroying His creation, then it would be my duty (I think) to do what I can to protect His creation.
Answer: Would you stop someone from harming the environment or killing someone (I assume these things are what you are referring to) if you thought there was no God?
This is what happened with Old Testament Israelites I believe, but I wasn’t there to understand all the supporting details – I give them the benefit of the doubt.
Answer: Supporting details from where exactly? Where are you going to find some real evidence that the Old Testament Israelites even existed and were not literary creations of second century BCE Israelites? These people wrote stories about ancestors they never had in order to give themselves an excuse to exist and live in Palestine on land they claimed was theirs. That’s the truth about the Old Testament dude and if you don’t believe me, and you really do want to be educated I can tell you which books support this claim and who wrote them. You can see for yourself what evidence these scholars have for their claims. It’s very compelling.
You would enjoy crushing other people’s egos, because you believe your own takes precedence. It’s true, I “never learn” from people like you who are focused on crushing me, rather than teaching me.
Answer: I’m not interested in teaching anyone on this blog. I’m trying to get people to think for themselves, teach themselves, look into the real roots of their religion and not blindly swallow the party line.
The scum I mentioned is a product of your way of thinking, and to this point you haven’t been able to explain your way out of it.
Answer: How is that scum a product of my way of thinking exactly? Adolph Hitler was a Christian who based his anti-Semitism on the teachings of Martin Luther. Read his book. Then read Hitler’s speeches where he constantly expressed his love and admiration for Jesus Christ. If you check the federal prison system you’ll see that the percentage of rapists and murderers who are professing Christian is slightly higher than the percentage of professing Christians in the United States. You admittedly don’t even know what I believe and yet you blame my “way of thinking” for the worst atrocities there are.
I do lash out at you extensively, and I will only increase my grip on you until you decide to run…then I’ll let you go. I can’t stop debating when I haven’t lost.
Answer: Uh, anyone can go back through this blog and see that I’ve run you off and silenced you several times before. And you know it too. That’s why I’m wondering why you even bother anymore. This isn’t going to end any better for you than our other debates.
You may have whipped me (insulted me),
Answer: I did not insult you I insulted your ideology and I responded to your absurd personal attacks on me.
but you haven’t explained how murders/rapes/etc are bad – what do you appeal to? True, I am not an adult yet, but I will not give up on getting an answer out of you.
Answer: It doesn’t take a genius or a divine revelation to figure out what kind of society we would have if murder and rape were permitted. A moment of reflection on that thought should let anyone know why these things are bad. But that’s not good enough for the religious mind. No, that mind has to be told by an imaginary authority figure that rape and murder are bad. Everyone does, otherwise someone might not be able to figure such things out. I don’t know how you people can expect to be taken seriously because you’re not by anyone but yourselves.
So the naturalist condemns me to stupidity for eternity, yet he whines about God punishing people for eternity. What a hypocrite you are Bernie.
Answer: No we’re not whining about God sending people to hell or that God drowned or otherwise murdered millions of people or anything else God supposedly did or does. We’re saying that without any verifiable evidence that any God exists of any kind and with overwhelming proof that the Christian God, the God of the Bible, could not possibly exist, nobody should be making any claims about God at all, let alone God punishing people. Especially Christians.
You tell me to say goodbye, but I say hello…I don’t care about my ego, I care about God. So go ahead and do your best, and if God allows it then so be it…give me your best shot naturalist.
Answer: If your God exists you better ask him for some ammunition to bring to debates with unbelievers. If you had a God or the truth on your side you wouldn’t keep losing debates with infidels. If there is a God he’s definitely on my side here (I think I may have been touched by His noodly appendage) if he’s even interested in taking sides at all. Which I highly doubt.
Re: hurt feelings – Bernie: No your feelings get hurt in a debate involving your religion because adopting religious beliefs is not an intellectual decision it’s one based on strictly emotions only. I don’t think with my emotions so I don’t get my feelings hurt in these kinds of arguments.
I guess I think with pure emotion, ha-ha. No wonder you can’t answer my question. Another question is: why don’t you respect other people’s emotions? Who are you to interfere, o speck? In other words, what are you appealing to (to justify the way you behave)?
Re: common sense (universal standard to appeal to for morality) – Bernie: You’re a creationist so you surrendered reason, logic and common sense at the altar of religious superstitions a long time ago.
You dodged that one.
Bernie: Apparently God doesn’t say anything anymore. God stopped talking the same time man figured out how to write history. Amazing coincidence huh? You people just overlook the most obvious clues that your God is an invention of ancient superstitious minds.
Sure He does. I think He communicates with me.
Re: Where do you base your morality – Bernie: Believe about what exactly? I don’t have any beliefs that I won’t challenge or change based on evidence. You do. I do believe that the universe and everything in it including life has a naturalistic explanation either waiting to be discovered or further expounded on.
Ok, again, you dodged the question, and supplied us with a tangent.
Re: What do you appeal to – Bernie: I appeal to nature and the study of nature – science.
So, does that mean you watch nature and learn how to behave? Like when a pack of hyenas tears apart an innocent victim – or some male beast rapes a female? Or a fox stealing eggs? Or maybe when a flood knocks down peoples homes and drowns them?
Re: What baggins appeals to (God) – Bernie: Suppose for a minute that God did not create the universe but rather Mother Nature did. Would you then have an excuse to destroy things in the universe?
Who is Mother Nature? Would She be happy if I acted like other animals I see in nature?
Re: protecting creation – Bernie: Would you stop someone from harming the environment or killing someone (I assume these things are what you are referring to) if you thought there was no God?
Well, does that mean nature is worthless (ultimately purposeless) and all of our existence is too? If I believed that maybe I’d just let myself die – pursuing as much purpose as the universe is. Why don’t you take a lesson from the Universe Bernie – ha-ha.
Re: Israelites – Bernie: Supporting details from where exactly? Where are you going to find some real evidence that the Old Testament Israelites even existed and were not literary creations of second century BCE Israelites? These people wrote stories about ancestors they never had in order to give themselves an excuse to exist and live in Palestine on land they claimed was theirs. That’s the truth about the Old Testament dude and if you don’t believe me, and you really do want to be educated I can tell you which books support this claim and who wrote them. You can see for yourself what evidence these scholars have for their claims. It’s very compelling.
If I was present at the time of the Israelites then I could observe first hand – either the stories taking place or fabrications. As it stands, I read the Bible. If I feel that the historicity of these stories is vital for my holding beliefs about God, then I will investigate. At this time I think I can believe in God whether many Bible stories are partially or completely fabricated.
Re: Crushing egos other than your own – Bernie: I’m not interested in teaching anyone on this blog. I’m trying to get people to think for themselves, teach themselves, look into the real roots of their religion and not blindly swallow the party line.
Good, then don’t expect me to learn from you (telling me that I should take a lesson, that I should learn, and so on). I am in charge of my education, as much as anyone can be – it has been like this since I dropped out of school to pursue my own interests. So, if you were trying to teach me how to teach myself – you’re too late. I have argued with more pastors than I have accepted to… Currently I don’t know where to go to “church”, because I hate to hear what I consider false doctrines – instead I spend a lot of time with local people and/or helping people who are hindered (physically, mentally, financially, or otherwise). I also listen to Christian talk radio (Bible lessons, political situations, etc) quite often – and get involved in discussions that relate to my beliefs.
Re: Bernie’s scum – Bernie: How is that scum a product of my way of thinking exactly? Adolph Hitler was a Christian who based his anti-Semitism on the teachings of Martin Luther. Read his book. Then read Hitler’s speeches where he constantly expressed his love and admiration for Jesus Christ. If you check the federal prison system you’ll see that the percentage of rapists and murderers who are professing Christian is slightly higher than the percentage of professing Christians in the United States. You admittedly don’t even know what I believe and yet you blame my “way of thinking” for the worst atrocities there are.
Don’t be a fool. Matthew 7:21 – Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. If Adolf Hitler and Martin Luther failed to do the will of the Father…then they’ll likely live apart from God.
You have admitted to plenty. You plainly claimed that nothing is supposed to be any certain way – and that is what I blame. The anything goes – everything is acceptable belief you have.
Re: lashings – Bernie: Uh, anyone can go back through this blog and see that I’ve run you off and silenced you several times before. And you know it too. That’s why I’m wondering why you even bother anymore. This isn’t going to end any better for you than our other debates.
Of course you’ve ran me off and silenced me. I don’t always have time for frivolous debates, yes, I know that. I can’t always throw my pearls to pigs.
Re: insults – Bernie: I did not insult you I insulted your ideology and I responded to your absurd personal attacks on me.
Ha-ha. Need I quote you to yourself?
Bernie to Baggins – “You have never had anything intelligent to say on this blog and you never will.”
Thanks for the “compliment”.
Re: failure to explain why murder is bad – Bernie: It doesn’t take a genius or a divine revelation to figure out what kind of society we would have if murder and rape were permitted.
Some people think that it would be a society ruled by the strong (who would murder if they felt so inclined) – allegedly a good thing. How would you respond to them?
Bernie: A moment of reflection on that thought should let anyone know why these things are bad. But that’s not good enough for the religious mind.
No, your lack of explanation isn’t good enough for anyone. Ask around.
Bernie: No, that mind has to be told by an imaginary authority figure that rape and murder are bad.
Human minds have to be convinced that they themselves are worth something – and that other people are worth something too. So far you’ve basically devalued human life to the extreme. According to you a common quartz is just as valuable as a human. Have you ever thrown a rock in anger? Because that would be abusive to the rock.
Bernie: Everyone does, otherwise someone might not be able to figure such things out. I don’t know how you people can expect to be taken seriously because you’re not by anyone but yourselves.
You take us pretty seriously. How many hours a day do you spend on here? How many hours do you spend with your family? Friends? Strangers? Pets? Rocks? Judging by all the attention you give us alone, I’d say we’re doing pretty good about being taken serious.
Bernie: No we’re not whining about God sending people to hell or that God drowned or otherwise murdered millions of people or anything else God supposedly did or does. We’re saying that without any verifiable evidence that any God exists of any kind and with overwhelming proof that the Christian God, the God of the Bible, could not possibly exist, nobody should be making any claims about God at all, let alone God punishing people. Especially Christians.
So how again do you explain the existence of the universe and all of its diversity?
Bernie: If your God exists you better ask him for some ammunition to bring to debates with unbelievers. If you had a God or the truth on your side you wouldn’t keep losing debates with infidels. If there is a God he’s definitely on my side here (I think I may have been touched by His noodly appendage) if he’s even interested in taking sides at all. Which I highly doubt.
Ha-ha, I’ll ask that His will be done. I don’t have to convince you that I’ve beaten you (which is what ammunition must be for). You can pray to yourself – perhaps you’ll come up with the answer we’re all waiting for – that you have thus far failed to provide. That is, what does an infidel appeal to as a basis for morality?
b baggins: #48-#50, You are not being too harsh, you are saying everything I would like to say! He deserves to receive all he gives……doesn’t the Bible say, ”Give and it shall be given to you…!!!”
He gives plenty of insult and he deserves to be put in his place while he insists on remaining here, deceiving himself that he has the upper hand when he is just a very silly and foolish man.
John:”… [they may be allowing him to stay here just because he’s making things more interesting than usual…”
Most probably, as the Moderator ignores my posts to him (them), and says absolutely nothing.
Why so silent? Mmmmmm?
b baggins: I think TPWDE is getting a little irate…..that’s how I see it….his posts are getting more and more aggressive and insulting….because he has nothing better to say. ‘Intellectuals’ do not need to rely on insults to put their point across.
Speck? That’s a good description of TPWDE! I think he sees himself as a brilliant star within our dark little religious world!……Well…..that star will be going Supernova soon, and we shall see who has any light or not! He will diminish into a Black Hole!
John: There is a time for the fire to burn!!
Bernie: “No religious “scholar” is capable of intelligent debate.” and “Theology is the study of nothing, it isn’t even a subject, and it has absolutely no connection whatsoever with the real world.”
Do you not see that you are just as much of a close minded fundamentalist on the subject of the divine as you accuse those who are religious fundamentalist of being? You recognize no opinion that is contrary to your very narrow one in regards to anything outside of YOUR experience of material existence. How is that in any way intellectually superior to the most dogmatic conservative Christian or Muslim?
Kash,
That is not an opinion. It is a verifiable fact that that all theology is based on fiction and the misinterpretation of mythology. There are NO exceptions to this rule. Your Christian religion is no different or less hokey than any other religion.
Looks like bagins is going down for the count this time.
I guess I think with pure emotion, ha-ha. No wonder you can’t answer my question. Another question is: why don’t you respect other people’s emotions? Who are you to interfere, o speck? In other words, what are you appealing to (to justify the way you behave)?
Answer: Just because you don’t like the answer does not mean I didn’t answer your question.
Sure He does. I think He communicates with me.
Answer: Right and you believe in angels and Satan and that the earth never moves too.
So, does that mean you watch nature and learn how to behave? Like when a pack of hyenas tears apart an innocent victim – or some male beast rapes a female? Or a fox stealing eggs? Or maybe when a flood knocks down peoples homes and drowns them?
Answer: No, because I’m not any of those things so why would I? What kind of person stays up at night to think up ridiculous questions like that? I do what most other humans do. except I don’t grovel in front of imaginary deities.
Who is Mother Nature? Would She be happy if I acted like other animals I see in nature?
Answer: And you accuse me of dodging questions. Once again a Christian hypocrite doing what Christians are best known for: being hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.
Well, does that mean nature is worthless (ultimately purposeless) and all of our existence is too? If I believed that maybe I’d just let myself die – pursuing as much purpose as the universe is. Why don’t you take a lesson from the Universe Bernie – ha-ha.
Answer: If you look up worth and purpose in the dictionary you’ll see that they have two distinctly different definitions. Once again you avoid answering an embarrassing question.
Good, then don’t expect me to learn from you (telling me that I should take a lesson, that I should learn, and so on). I am in charge of my education, as much as anyone can be – it has been like this since I dropped out of school to pursue my own interests.
Answer: Dropped out of what exactly? The sixth grade?
So, if you were trying to teach me how to teach myself – you’re too late. I have argued with more pastors than I have accepted to…
Answer: Taking that much interest in church matters is almost always a prelude to insanity.
You have admitted to plenty. You plainly claimed that nothing is supposed to be any certain way – and that is what I blame. The anything goes – everything is acceptable belief you have.
Answer: Once again you have to resort to dishonestly and purposefully distorting what I said and then taking it down a slippery slope to an absurd conclusion that does not follow. Nothing in the universe exists because it was predetermined to exist by some being with magical powers. That’s what I meant and either you know that and are dishonestly misrepresenting it or else you didn’t comprehend it which would be really pathetic on your part.
Of course you’ve ran me off and silenced me. I don’t always have time for frivolous debates, yes, I know that. I can’t always throw my pearls to pigs.
Answer: The same people who call me names like pig, idiot, stupid, swine, fool and whatever else, claim I insult people and shouldn’t be allowed to post here. It’s amazing.
Some people think that it would be a society ruled by the strong (who would murder if they felt so inclined) – allegedly a good thing. How would you respond to them?
Answer: That there is no society that has ever that permitted murder. The “some people” you are referring to are considered to be dangerous and insane by our entire civilization. So are people who think like you.
No, your lack of explanation isn’t good enough for anyone. Ask around.
Answer: No, my explanation is good enough for the entire scientific community because that is where it comes from. Ask around your self. You can’t accept any scientific explanations that debunk the sectarian dogma other people have brainwashed you with. That’s your problem. My explanation stands until you can refute it with objective evidence. Since you don’t even know what that is this will never happen.
Human minds have to be convinced that they themselves are worth something – and that other people are worth something too. So far you’ve basically devalued human life to the extreme.
According to you a common quartz is just as valuable as a human. Have you ever thrown a rock in anger? Because that would be abusive to the rock.
Answer: Right humans have to be properly educated by their parents and teachers. Obviously you were not. Your arguments could not be more retarded. A rock is not alive. Nowhere did I say rocks were as important s humans. Lie and fabricate much do you?
You take us pretty seriously. How many hours a day do you spend on here? How many hours do you spend with your family? Friends? Strangers? Pets? Rocks? Judging by all the attention you give us alone, I’d say we’re doing pretty good about being taken serious.
Answer: I take Christian and Islamic religious fundamentalism very seriously because they are extremely dangerous. But the beliefs of these religions cannot be taken seriously. They’re a joke and a constant and raucous source of entertainment for unbelievers all over the world. There is no easier target for humor than Bible believers.
So how again do you explain the existence of the universe and all of its diversity?
Answer: The same way scientists do. Big Bang cosmology for the universe and evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of life on Earth. You explain these things with the magic words and magic breath of a magical being. Have fun with your childish fanatasy.
Ha-ha, I’ll ask that His will be done. I don’t have to convince you that I’ve beaten you (which is what ammunition must be for). You can pray to yourself – perhaps you’ll come up with the answer we’re all waiting for – that you have thus far failed to provide. That is, what does an infidel appeal to as a basis for morality?
Answer: “A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed” – Albert Einstein
I already answered this question. The answer completely destroys your entire belief system and so therefore you will never accept it until you grow up and reject your religious superstitions. The infidel bases morality on education and critical analysis. Science shows that humans have taught themselves to be moral just as they have taught themselves languages, math, astronomy or anything else. Human morality has evolved as we have and as I already pointed out is satisfactorily explained by Darwinian natural selection. That’s what you can’t accept because it demolishes your Christian superstitions which require magical explanations be accepted and scientific ones be rejected.
Science has taken away all the gaps for God to hide in. The universe and life have satisfactory scientific explanations like them or not. So Bible believers have desperately resorted to trying to explain other things like morality or consciousness with their supernatural hogwash and jibber-jabber. Don’t think the world doesn’t notice the only people who don’t like these scientific explanations are the same exact people who have never accepted ANY scientific discoveries, findings or theories or the results of those theories until they were forced to so they would no longer look ridiculous to the rest of the world. Who are those people? Bible believers – historically the most anti-science cult that has ever existed on this planet. Name a scientific discovery of the last 1500 years Bible believers did not deny and fight against. Because I can name a hundred that they did. Should we go over the Christian’s history of trying to kill science and scientists because just like YOU they could not accept scientific discoveries that proved their religious beliefs were nonsense?
Now I’ve answered your questions about morality several times and in several clear and concise ways. You can say I didn’t but everyone can see I did. Just because you have to reject your Christian superstitions to accept them doesn’t mean they aren’t true. It just proves your religious beliefs are as phony as a three-dollar bill. Oh yes it does. Hahaha
“It is a verifiable fact that that all theology is based on fiction and the misinterpretation of mythology.” In what manner is this fact verifiable? You have read of a study that proves conclusively that there is no God? You have said yourself that one can not prove a negative. You may say that there is no “scientific” or “verifiable” evidence that there IS a God, but the converse is not automatically true. Though your ego seems unable to acknowledge it, you can not know with certainty everything there is to know about the universe.
“Science has taken away all the gaps for God to hide in.” Well, that is patently untrue. “The universe and life have satisfactory scientific explanations like them or not.” Hmm, I hope all of the theoretical physicists and evolutinary biologist out there working to fill in the gaps don’t find out, or they will join the increasing ranks of the unemployed. Hope they can keep their health insurance.
Well, that is patently untrue.
Answer: Sorry but dogmatic statements with nothing whatsoever to back them up are only acceptable in religion. What do we need “God did it” as an explanation for exactly may I ask? The rain, death, the human condition, morality? All theology is based on fiction. Prove the Bible isn’t 100 percent fiction. Prove dead people came back to life, climbed out of their graves and appeared to many other people in Jerusalem. You know that verse alone had helped me de-convert at least a dozen people within say about a minute? That lie in the Bible will almost single handedly bring and end to Bible belief within a decade. Nothing that stupid can survive the age of information. All we have to do is make sure enough people know that passage is in the Bible. What in the world is so special about this supposed resurrection Jesus when all these other people supposedly came back to life too. What happened to these zombies anyway? Did they go back to the graveyards and rebury themselves later on? I have to stop now, before I hurt myself laughing so hard.
Bernie: Looks like bagins is going down for the count this time.
I’m gonna get back up and you know it.
Bernie: “Sorry but dogmatic statements with nothing whatsoever to back them up are only acceptable in religion.” And your posts! I mean really, “The universe and life have satisfactory scientific explanations like them or not.” Everything in the universe and life has satisfactory scientific explanations? There is nothing that remains to be discovered or explained?
Its not that we know everything, but I think Bernie would say that everything has an explanation, whether we know it or not.
Or maybe its just me that thinks that, I can’t speak for Bernie.
“everything has an explanation, whether we know it or not”
That is a statement of faith if I’ve ever heard one! In order to know conclusively that everything has an explanation, you would have to know everything, or be told this by someone who in fact knows everything.
Maz post 55,
You know, the Moderator may be following some one’s orders by allowing Bernie to stay. Who knows? We’ll just have to wait and see what happens. Perhaps you will hear something from the Moderator sometime soon.
Post 57,
[Siiiigh]
Well, if you feel you must, then have yourself some Aloe at hand, because if there’s one thing I’ve learned from fighting it’s that if your going to fight someone you should expect to get hurt in someway, be it physical or not. You can’t kick the crap out of someone without getting some blood on you. Besides, Bernie seems far to close-minded and arrogant to accept the possibility that he might actually be wrong on these subjects. He seems happier telling people how wrong they are about things he’s not experiencing himself instead of listening to, or even giving the benefit of the doubt to, those who are actually involved with such matters.
Kash post 61 and 65,
As Bernie said himself within post 52…”I don’t have any beliefs that I won’t challenge or change based on evidence.”
I don’t know what kind of evidences you could supply to someone like Bernie that he would ever allow himself to accept, seeming so biased against theology and the Supernatural. If he really wants to think of himself as an orphan of an uncaring, mechanistic Universe, then perhaps we should respect his decision and allow him his philosophy. Some people just seem to prefer such things, for some weird reason. For some skeptics of theology it’s like a form of “defense mechanism”.
X post 66, everything MAY have SOME explanation, but if the explanation perhaps turns out to be something your uncomfortable with, would you still be able to accept it and move on? What if the explanation for some things are beyond knowing?What if the explanation is NOT “naturalistic”[by whatever definition Bernie may have for this word]in nature? Or so terrible you would not want to know? Or share with anyone?
Re: failure to answer question – Bernie: Just because you don’t like the answer does not mean I didn’t answer your question.
Now you’re stalling.
Re: Nature is your teacher – Bernie: No, because I’m not any of those things so why would I? What kind of person stays up at night to think up ridiculous questions like that? I do what most other humans do. except I don’t grovel in front of imaginary deities.
You do what most other humans do, huh? This is just an appeal to popularity, and doesn’t highlight your alleged ability to think freely – and especially doesn’t answer the question I asked.
Re: Mother Nature – Bernie: And you accuse me of dodging questions. Once again a Christian hypocrite doing what Christians are best known for: being hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.
You brought up another idea (Mother Nature), and I asked some questions about Her to figure out what you meant. Surprise, surprise – Bernie doesn’t answer those questions. Instead he accuses me of question dodging – the very thing he is doing [again]!
Re: Worthless/purposeless reality – Bernie: If you look up worth and purpose in the dictionary you’ll see that they have two distinctly different definitions. Once again you avoid answering an embarrassing question.
I don’t know what I’d be like if I believed the universe was worthless, but I’m guessing I’d act like you – a hateful clown. Who knows what other aggressions you perpetrate in your day to day life – or would if given the opportunity.
Re: education – Bernie: Dropped out of what exactly? The sixth grade?
Guess again.
Re: Interest in people and church – Bernie: Taking that much interest in church matters is almost always a prelude to insanity.
Okie-dokie.
Re: Bernie reveals himself – Bernie: Once again you have to resort to dishonestly and purposefully distorting what I said and then taking it down a slippery slope to an absurd conclusion that does not follow.
What are you talking about, sir? Just answer the question already.
Re: Bernie’s a ‘cop’ – Bernie: The same people who call me names like pig, idiot, stupid, swine, fool and whatever else, claim I insult people and shouldn’t be allowed to post here. It’s amazing.
Are you saying that you don’t insult people here? How many quotes of yourself do you have to read?
Re: “Strong should rule” – Bernie: That there is no society that has ever that permitted murder. The “some people” you are referring to are considered to be dangerous and insane by our entire civilization. So are people who think like you.
There have been societies that permitted murder. What about human sacrifices? Or unjust wars?
Re: failure to explain – Bernie: No, my explanation is good enough for the entire scientific community because that is where it comes from. Ask around your self. You can’t accept any scientific explanations that debunk the sectarian dogma other people have brainwashed you with. That’s your problem. My explanation stands until you can refute it with objective evidence. Since you don’t even know what that is this will never happen.
I suspect the scientific community wouldn’t be happy with your explanation – since it’s a wee bit short on the particulars. Bernie said, “I appeal to nature and the study of nature – science”.
When I asked you to provide a scientific explanation you resorted to telling me to read a book. Is it that you don’t understand the explanation well enough to tell me about it? Sum it up for me oh one with great intellectual prowess.
Re: Bernie devalues human life – Bernie: Right humans have to be properly educated by their parents and teachers. Obviously you were not. Your arguments could not be more retarded. A rock is not alive. Nowhere did I say rocks were as important s humans. Lie and fabricate much do you?
No, I wasn’t properly educated, what’s it to you? Now, what precedence does being alive have? How do you figure that a human is worth more than a rock? Both are just a bunch of atoms, so surely they must have the same worth in your view?
Re: Taking us serious – Bernie: I take Christian and Islamic religious fundamentalism very seriously because they are extremely dangerous. But the beliefs of these religions cannot be taken seriously. They’re a joke and a constant and raucous source of entertainment for unbelievers all over the world. There is no easier target for humor than Bible believers.
Ha-ha, Bernie is here fighting for his honor, saving the world. He can’t even silence a buck-toothed hick who is still dealing with the changes of puberty, no doubt. Ah well, he’s only one naturalist after all, and it’ll take more than that to stop an young billy goat like myself.
Re: Diversity of the universe – Bernie: The same way scientists do. Big Bang cosmology for the universe and evolution by natural selection explains the diversity of life on Earth. You explain these things with the magic words and magic breath of a magical being. Have fun with your childish fanatasy.
So basically you don’t explain it…but you’re trying real hard to explain the explainable – and leaving the BIG questions alone. I’m having a great time with my childish fantasy (it works so well), so butt out. Keeps me kicking [real hard] when you want to put me down.
Re: That is, what does an infidel appeal to as a basis for morality? – Bernie: “A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed” – Albert Einstein
What the heck is old Albert talking about? Sympathy is emotional – and Bernie doesn’t experience THAT when he’s discussing ethics and/or just dealing with us. Hitler was well educated. And the last part…social ties and needs, what? First of, what is ethical behavior? Secondly, why should I behave in this particular manner because I have social ties and needs (I mean, I can get by with surprisingly little). By the way, Hitler had a wife – social ties and needs – check – and he certainly behaved in a particular manner. Albert really hasn’t explained anything in this quote, and he clearly doesn’t count himself apart from the “sorry lot” – so he must work for the same motives.
Bernie: I already answered this question. The answer completely destroys your entire belief system and so therefore you will never accept it until you grow up and reject your religious superstitions.
Ha-ha. How about a real answer next time?
Bernie: The infidel bases morality on education and critical analysis.
So I guess that means you’d enjoy raping and killing believers (such as myself)?
Bernie: Science shows that humans have taught themselves to be moral just as they have taught themselves languages, math, astronomy or anything else.
Why can’t you pass the tradition down to me then? Before you said you were unwilling/uninterested in teaching people, should I adopt that mindset? If everyone did that then morality would stop here, and all future generations would have to reinvent it, right? That doesn’t sound very moral of you.
Bernie: Human morality has evolved as we have and as I already pointed out is satisfactorily explained by Darwinian natural selection. That’s what you can’t accept because it demolishes your Christian superstitions which require magical explanations be accepted and scientific ones be rejected.
So what is human morality at this point?
Bernie: Science has taken away all the gaps for God to hide in. The universe and life have satisfactory scientific explanations like them or not.
So where did spacetime come from again? You keep failing to answer that BIG one.
Bernie: So Bible believers have desperately resorted to trying to explain other things like morality or consciousness with their supernatural hogwash and jibber-jabber.
But you haven’t even explained where spacetime comes from – and what separates humans from ants or rocks or light or the emptiest void out there in space.
Bernie: Don’t think the world doesn’t notice the only people who don’t like these scientific explanations are the same exact people who have never accepted ANY scientific discoveries, findings or theories or the results of those theories until they were forced to so they would no longer look ridiculous to the rest of the world.
I find it amusing that you resort to putting a “rest of the world” population on your side for the sake of discussion (propounding ridiculous premises). Ha-ha, Bernie, sweet Bernie, what a lovable guy.
Bernie: Who are those people? Bible believers – historically the most anti-science cult that has ever existed on this planet. Name a scientific discovery of the last 1500 years Bible believers did not deny and fight against. Because I can name a hundred that they did. Should we go over the Christian’s history of trying to kill science and scientists because just like YOU they could not accept scientific discoveries that proved their religious beliefs were nonsense?
How about the discovery that peanuts can be transformed into peanut butter? I think I’ll make a sandwich right now. P.S. (post sandwich) Scientists could never challenge our religious beliefs. They may challenge some auxiliary beliefs (that they themselves established within us), but they can’t touch the BIG questions in life…they never have.
Bernie: Now I’ve answered your questions about morality several times and in several clear and concise ways. You can say I didn’t but everyone can see I did.
Yea, you didn’t answer my questions about morality at all. Typical.
Bernie: Just because you have to reject your Christian superstitions to accept them doesn’t mean they aren’t true. It just proves your religious beliefs are as phony as a three-dollar bill. Oh yes it does. Hahaha
Oh no it doesn’t you silly clown, ha-ha. I don’t have to accept/adopt/adhere to an explanation to be knowledgeable of it. You haven’t even given a false explanation. You’ve gave an extremely general and non-explanatory explanation MAYBE, but you certainly haven’t answered the questions well (clearly, concisely, you name it – it has been a disappointing and running failure).
Follow up questions:
No wonder you can’t answer my question, you don’t know how. Here’s some questions anyway:
1) Why don’t you respect other people’s emotions? – Does this indicate that you’d kill them?
2) What are you appealing to (to justify the way you behave)?
3) How does nature and science compel you to attack, attack, attack?
That is a statement of faith if I’ve ever heard one! In order to know conclusively that everything has an explanation, you would have to know everything, or be told this by someone who in fact knows everything.
Answer: The beauty of arguing with a creationist is that you can always turn their silly arguments on their heads and use them against them. This is because they never think about what they say but rather just parrot arguments fed them by their religious leaders. Thinking is not allowed in Christian fundamentalism. JD42 would have to know everything, or be told by someone who in fact knows everything to be able to claim that something doesn’t have a naturalistic explanation. And of course being a Bible believer he’ll claim he HAS been told by someone who knows everything – God. In the Bible. That says the earth is flat and never moves! Hahaha.
Nice – classic ad hominem argument!
The fact remains that the portion you quoted is an epistemological fact. In order to say for sure that EVERYTHING has a naturalistic explanation, you would have to know EVERYTHING, which you do not. That was my only point. When anyone says “everything has an explanation, whether we know it or not,” they are making a statement of faith and nothing more.
Bernie,
You sure spend a lot of time fighting against something you claim doesn’t exist – God. Why all the heat and effort? Why do you think that you must win the argument? Why does it threaten you so much?
The truth is that you know very well that God exists and you will answer to Him. You just don’t like that fact so you suppress that truth.
John 3:19-20 9 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Romans 1:18-21 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
I know you will howl in protest at my quoting the Bible, but so be it. The reason I so so is that, believe it or not, I care about your soul and do not want you to face the wrath of God because of your willful disbelief. The gospel is the power of God for your salvation, not my words. I do not wish to enter into a long debate with you (and I will not), because I know it would be fruitless. I simply commit you to God and his grace in Christ Jesus and pray that He has mercy on you. Consider the following:
Acts 17:30-31 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
John 3:16-17 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
The gift of salvation is available to you if you will simply humble yourself and receive it by faith. I pray that, however you respond publicly, you will consider these things. I’m done.
bagins,
I don’t know what I’d be like if I believed the universe was worthless, but I’m guessing I’d act like you – a hateful clown.
Answer: You aren’t acting like a hateful clown now? See I can’t tell the difference between the behavior of some Christian fundamentalists and a hateful clown.
Who knows what other aggressions you perpetrate in your day to day life – or would if given the opportunity.
Answer: None I don’t believe in violence or physical aggression.
Re: education – Bernie: Dropped out of what exactly? The sixth grade? Guess again.
Answer: Fifth? Home school?
Re: Interest in people and church – Bernie: Taking that much interest in church matters is almost always a prelude to insanity.
Okie-dokie.
Answer: Finally an intelligent answer from you! Sort of.
Are you saying that you don’t insult people here? How many quotes of yourself do you have to read?
Answer: Quote me then. Where are the insults? Where is the name calling on my part?
There have been societies that permitted murder. What about human sacrifices? Or unjust wars?
Answer: Name the societies that permitted murder. Human sacrifices were outlawed in societies that performed them but religious people who thought that their divine laws superceded the king’s laws sacrificed their children anyway. In backward countries when a woman dies during childbirth children are still sacrificed sometimes all for religious purposes. This is illegal. Unjust wars? You mean like the Christian holy wars our government is fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq? Those unjust wars that you support but would be too chicken to actually fight in?
When I asked you to provide a scientific explanation you resorted to telling me to read a book. Is it that you don’t understand the explanation well enough to tell me about it? Sum it up for me oh one with great intellectual prowess.
Answer: No it’s that you won’t be able to understand the explanation because you cannot grasp even basic scientific concepts. I’ve seen really knowledgeable people try to explain even simple concepts to creationists on this blog to no avail. The religious mind is simply too frightened to acknowledge anything that might cause it to think. See when miracles are accepted science goes out the window. Why strain your poorly educated brain when “God did it” suffices to explain everything to you?
No, I wasn’t properly educated, what’s it to you?
Answer: Stop wasting my time then. I’m here to have intelligent conversation with other intelligent educated people on this blog whether they are Christians or not it doesn’t matter. I’m not here to waste my time talking to some bedwetting, cheesy poof eating middle school drop out.
Now, what precedence does being alive have? How do you figure that a human is worth more than a rock?
Answer: Uh, I hate to keep bringing this up but common sense. How do YOU figure that a human is worth more than a rock? Do you have to be told that in a book of fantastic stories or by your religious leaders or can you figure that out all by yourself? Which is it?
Both are just a bunch of atoms, so surely they must have the same worth in your view?
Answer: What do you base that asinine conclusion on exactly? I’m a humanist so human beings come first for me not some God or anything else. You think humans are worthless sinners who have no redeeming value in the eyes of your God and are all fit for the flames of hell. You criminalize the entire human race and debase all humans and then insinuate that it is ME who doesn’t value human life. Do you ever think about what you say before you say it? No, you parrot the same tired arguments we’ve all see on creationist websites.
Ha-ha, Bernie is here fighting for his honor, saving the world. He can’t even silence a buck-toothed hick who is still dealing with the changes of puberty, no doubt. Ah well, he’s only one naturalist after all, and it’ll take more than that to stop an young billy goat like myself.
Answer: Your own ignorance has already stopped you in life buddy. I would hate to have your future, a life working for minimum wage if you ever get work at all. Enjoy your life of poverty and not having even a basic understanding of the world around you. No one deserves that more.
So basically you don’t explain it…but you’re trying real hard to explain the explainable – and leaving the BIG questions alone. I’m having a great time with my childish fantasy (it works so well), so butt out. Keeps me kicking [real hard] when you want to put me down.
Answer: You’ll find out soon enough in life that not only doesn’t your childish fantasy work so well but that it doesn’t work at all. Science on the other hand works for everyone whether they believe it or not. Religion only works for those who use it to control the minds and actions of people like you.
Hitler was well educated.
Answer: Yeah and in a Protestant seminary for three years where he went to answer his calling from Jesus Christ to spread the Christian gospel according to his own words. But like most fundamentalist Bible believers Hitler knew nothing about science which is why he insisted the German public schools not teach evolution but rather Christian creationism.
Albert really hasn’t explained anything in this quote, and he clearly doesn’t count himself apart from the “sorry lot” – so he must work for the same motives.
Answer: This is true Christian absurdity and arrogance gone into orbit! We have an admitted drop out who is questioning statements by Albert Einstein! Don’t you think Einstein is just a little over your head bagins? Of course not. You and other creationists actually think elementary and secondary school students are qualified to make judgments about the validity of evolutionary theory as well as other scientific theories!
So I guess that means you’d enjoy raping and killing believers (such as myself)?
Answer: That guess is based on what exactly? Tell us all exactly how you come to that conclusion. I don’t believe in raping or killing anybody nor could I ever believe in a God who commanded those things. But you can and you’re proud of it. Suppose you believed your God commanded you and others to rape and kill unbelievers the way the Bible says he did in the past. Would you do it? Don’t avoid this question. I need an answer to this on your very next post. I’m not letting you off the hook on this one buddy. Would you rape and kill if you believed you were commanded by your God to do so?
Why can’t you pass the tradition down to me then? Before you said you were unwilling/uninterested in teaching people, should I adopt that mindset? If everyone did that then morality would stop here, and all future generations would have to reinvent it, right? That doesn’t sound very moral of you.
Answer: I taught my children. You’re not my responsibility and you don’t want to learn anything anyway or you would be in school. It’s obvious that you parents didn’t teach you proper morals and ethics and the consequences of your behavior. Instead of parenting you themselves they frightened you with the invisible boogyman in the sky. You are a poster child for bad parenting. What kind of parent lets their child quit school? A parent that has no respect for intelligence or education and passed this lack of respect for these things right on to their son.
So what is human morality at this point?
Answer: It’s a lot further evolved than it was in the days when the Bible was written. If someone were to get their morals out of the Bible they would think there is nothing wrong with slavery because the Bible not only condones slavery it regulates its practice. But like everything else human morality evolves. Except in the religious mind. Nothing in that mind can ever change.
So where did spacetime come from again? You keep failing to answer that BIG one.
Answer: You could look the answer up to that question yourself but you won’t because you won’t like the answer you get. I’m not wasting time explaining complex scientific theories to a person who couldn’t understand them in the first place and is afraid to even consider them for fear of being punished in hell for doing that in the second.
But you haven’t even explained where spacetime comes from – and what separates humans from ants or rocks or light or the emptiest void out there in space.
Answer: Those questions have plausible scientific and philosophical explanations. But they are over your head until you to go back to school. For a long, long time.
I find it amusing that you resort to putting a “rest of the world” population on your side for the sake of discussion (propounding ridiculous premises). Ha-ha, Bernie, sweet Bernie, what a lovable guy.
Answer: The “rest of the world” is laughing and poking fun at the 20 to 30 million people in the world who share your childish worldview. That’s right call standing scientific explanations ridiculous and a book that says dead people came back to life and climbed out of their graves “true.” ROFL!
Scientists could never challenge our religious beliefs. They may challenge some auxiliary beliefs (that they themselves established within us), but they can’t touch the BIG questions in life…they never have.
Answer: Science has not only challenged your creationist superstitions it has steam rolled them into oblivion. “God: The Failed Hypothesis, How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist” by Victor Stenger would not be a best seller if what you said had any merit at all.
Jesusneverexisted.com would not be one of the most popular websites if what you said were true.
Yea, you didn’t answer my questions about morality at all. Typical.
Answer: Anyone including you can scroll up to post #60 and see that I did indeed answer your question about morality. How exactly is that not an answer? Because you can’t accept it as a result of your religious brainwashing and inability to grasp even the simplest concepts because you have no education?
Follow up questions:
No wonder you can’t answer my question, you don’t know how. Here’s some questions anyway:
1) Why don’t you respect other people’s emotions? – Does this indicate that you’d kill them?
Answer: I don’t respect YOUR emotions or anyone’s emotions that come directly from religious brainwashing. To sooth your damaged ego you must tell yourself that if I don’t respect your emotions I must not respect anyone’s. But that simply isn’t true. Besides if I’ve ever seen a rude overbearing blowhard that doesn’t deserve any respect from any other human it would be you. Then you have to pretend that because I mock the absurd and dishonest things you say that means I would also kill you. The things you say are just childish.
2) What are you appealing to (to justify the way you behave)?
Answer: The way I behave toward you and other uneducated and inherently dishonest people like you is justified by your own rudeness, childishness, dishonesty, willful ignorance, arrogance, name calling and downright evil nature. You haven’t got the stomach for it because mommy and daddy let you get away with that kind of behavior instead of teaching you that if you do that out in the real world people will give it back to you double and hurt your feelings. Go tell mommy and daddy on me why don’t you?
3) How does nature and science compel you to attack, attack, attack?
Answer: Nature? As I just explained your evil nature earned you yet another verbal smack down and humiliation at the hands of an infidel. People have a tendency to get what they deserve in life. Too bad your parents didn’t teach you that. Now again, if you believed your God commanded you to kill and rape unbelievers would you do it? Don’t tell me your God would never do that unless you are willing to admit the Bible is lying about that. Don’t avoid the question. I told you this would not end well for you man.
JD42
The fact remains that the portion you quoted is an epistemological fact. In order to say for sure that EVERYTHING has a naturalistic explanation, you would have to know EVERYTHING, which you do not. That was my only point. When anyone says “everything has an explanation, whether we know it or not,” they are making a statement of faith and nothing more.
Answer: You are ignoring what I really said and employing the standard creationist ploy of attacking a straw man. This is what I said: “I don’t have any beliefs that I won’t challenge or change based on evidence. You do. I do believe that the universe and everything in it including life has a naturalistic explanation either waiting to be discovered or further expounded on.” I clearly said what I believe and how I would change that upon receiving new evidence. But you dishonestly insinuate that I was being dogmatic claiming to be “sure” of this: “In order to say for sure that EVERYTHING has a naturalistic explanation, you would have to know EVERYTHING, which you do not.” What is so funny about this is how desperate you must be to read all through my posts which make very good points and ask very good questions while debunking much of what you believe in and all you can come up with is an argument against something I never said in the first place! It should also be pointed out that another Christian ploy you use is to blur the distinction between faith based on evidence and religious faith, which is not based on evidence but fear and adherence dogma and doctrine. Don’t say fear isn’t the only reason you believe in God because that fear is reflected in this statement:
The truth is that you know very well that God exists and you will answer to Him. You just don’t like that fact so you suppress that truth.
Answer: Which God? You Christians never realize that you’re in just as much danger of facing Allah and winding up in the Muslim hell as any unbeliever is in winding up in your Christian hell. Don’t believe it? Why not? When you can answer that question honestly then you’ll understand why I don’t believe in your hell. The only people who are afraid of the Christian hell are Christians just like the only people afraid of the Muslim hell are Muslims. That’s how religious beliefs work. They only control the warped and delusional minds of their adherents. Yet the adherents are so blinded by their delusions that they think everyone else has them even people who haven’t been brainwashed into their particular religion. This is YOUR problem. You actually think people can believe all the mumbo jumbo boogy magic you do without being brainwashed the way you were, with fear-induced superstitions. You people never seem to realize just how impossible it is to believe in your God for anyone who knows how to think independently. It’s not the idea of a God we can’t believe in. It’s YOUR God, the Bible God the Christian God. Believing in the Christian God requires belief in angels, Satan, demons, magic, Jesus and a lot of things that are not supported by any evidence whatsoever and have in fact been refuted scientifically.
But you can’t face the fact that I don’t believe in your hell can you? No, because if you were honest about it and faced the truth then you would have to face the idea that your God is sending innocent people who had no idea hell really existed there to be punished for all eternity. Your dogma states that people willingly separate themselves from God and so hell is justified. Christian idiocy at its finest. That’s why you have to tell yourself that everyone really believes in the Christian God even though you know full well half the people who died in the last 2000 years never even heard of your God. So they are all burning in hell for the supposed crime of honest unbelief. But they deserve it anyway right? They were all sinners, right?
I know you will howl in protest at my quoting the Bible, but so be it. The reason I so so is that, believe it or not, I care about your soul and do not want you to face the wrath of God because of your willful disbelief.
Answer: You are lying to yourself because the truth demolishes your entire belief system. My belief is NOT willful. Unbelief is the natural position to take on anything until something has been proved. The existence of God has not been proved to either of us and you KNOW it. You just can’t face it because then you would have to face the fact and it is a fact that your religion is nothing more than man-made religious dogma and doctrine and that your God could not possibly exist. Your life is meaningless without your childish escapist and life-avoidance fantasies. I can’t think of anything more pathetic. I realize belief in an afterlife is an almost universal neuroses but that doesn’t make it any less stupid or insane. Not to mention unbelievable.
” “everything has an explanation, whether we know it or not” ”
So can this person explain why we die?
John:” Maz post 55,
You know, the Moderator may be following some one’s orders by allowing Bernie to stay. Who knows? We’ll just have to wait and see what happens. Perhaps you will hear something from the Moderator sometime soon.”
….sometime…never? I would have thot it courteous to atleast answer my posts….seeing as I’v asked more than once.
b baggins: #69. Great reading. and it made me laugh at the end with ”you silly clown”. I guess there is some humour with TPWDE around!
BTW…HOW old are you? You sound quite mature.
Bernie,
You responded exactly as I thought you might publicly. And, as I said, I will not enter into a long debate with you, but I will point out one thing. You said, “You are ignoring what I really said and employing the standard creationist ploy of attacking a straw man.” This is totally false! When I said what I did in I was responding to X in post 66, NOT TO ANYTHING YOU HAD SAID. And with all your howling you still have not shown how my response was wrong.
Re: how I’d act – Bernie: You aren’t acting like a hateful clown now? See I can’t tell the difference between the behavior of some Christian fundamentalists and a hateful clown.
Of course you can’t, but ouch, good one.
Re: aggression – Bernie: None I don’t believe in violence or physical aggression.
So you believe in verbal/mental violence and aggression, but a magic barrier prevents you from acting out your mentalities/hatred.
From Jesus:
“You’ve heard it said, ‘Don’t kill.’ I tell you don’t be angry with your brother or you are liable for the judgment.”
“You’ve heard it said, ‘Don’t commit adultery. I tell you if you look at a woman lustfully you have already committed adultery with her in your heart.”
Re: societies allowing murder – Bernie: Name the societies that permitted murder.
Germany of the first half of the 20th century is a rather blatant one… There are many others that actually permitted murder, many that still do… If the government is murdering people, then that suffices for me in this discussion.
Bernie: Unjust wars? You mean like the Christian holy wars our government is fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq? Those unjust wars that you support but would be too chicken to actually fight in?
Why would I support an unjust war? I don’t know all the details of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, so I can’t comment much…sorry.
Re: Sum up an answer – Bernie: No it’s that you won’t be able to understand the explanation because you cannot grasp even basic scientific concepts.
He’s stalling again.
Bernie: I’ve seen really knowledgeable people try to explain even simple concepts to creationists on this blog to no avail.
So there isn’t much point in an ignorant person trying to explain anything, right? You expect me to believe that?
Bernie: The religious mind is simply too frightened to acknowledge anything that might cause it to think.
Thank you for sparing me! Ha-ha, hypocrite – your whole point for being here is allegedly to try to cause religious people to think.
Bernie: See when miracles are accepted science goes out the window. Why strain your poorly educated brain when “God did it” suffices to explain everything to you?
Absolute statements like that require absolute knowledge…I think I read that somewhere recently.
Re: No education, get on with ye – Bernie: Stop wasting my time then. I’m here to have intelligent conversation with other intelligent educated people on this blog whether they are Christians or not it doesn’t matter. I’m not here to waste my time talking to some bedwetting, cheesy poof eating middle school drop out.
Stop wasting your own time smarty-pants, I’ll do what I should with mine. I’m here to get answers out of wacky bullies like yourself. Do you mind if I wet the bed and eat refuse? You can’t take logic at face value, instead you attempt to attack/highlight my lack of education, poor eating habits, and my tendency to wet the bed – all fallacies on your part.
Re: Human versus rock – Bernie: Uh, I hate to keep bringing this up but common sense. How do YOU figure that a human is worth more than a rock? Do you have to be told that in a book of fantastic stories or by your religious leaders or can you figure that out all by yourself? Which is it?
Explaining something by saying “common sense” doesn’t explain anything. You see, I lack that “common sense”, which is why I continually ask you to explain yourself.
As for me, I believe that God created this universe. I believe that humans are created in God’s image – as the Bible says, but rocks are not. I can conceive of no other solution to the problem of the universe’s existence.
Re: Both are atoms, so their equal – Bernie: What do you base that asinine conclusion on exactly? I’m a humanist so human beings come first for me not some God or anything else.
You believe in nature and science. So what separates a rock from a human? Chemical reactions? Well then, what separates a mixture of vinegar and baking soda from a human (a mixture of chemicals/reactions)? What on earth are you appealing to? Human beings come first? Oh, right, believers aren’t consider human beings by yourself – which is why you would slaughter, not murder.
Bernie: You think humans are worthless sinners who have no redeeming value in the eyes of your God and are all fit for the flames of hell. You criminalize the entire human race and debase all humans and then insinuate that it is ME who doesn’t value human life.
That doesn’t exactly capture what I think. If I thought humans were worthless, then I would have no problem with your way of thinking (which necessitates just that). You live out your fallacies by being widely disrespectful to human life here.
Bernie: Do you ever think about what you say before you say it? No, you parrot the same tired arguments we’ve all see on creationist websites.
Sure buddy. I’ve hardly seen the creationist websites. You must think I cut and paste like you? I don’t have a clue.
Re: Bernie’s fight, billy goat kicks – Bernie: Your own ignorance has already stopped you in life buddy. I would hate to have your future, a life working for minimum wage if you ever get work at all. Enjoy your life of poverty and not having even a basic understanding of the world around you. No one deserves that more.
Ha-ha, you’re hilarious. I was just outside building raised bed and regular gardens – expanding upon what I had done in the spring. We’re all about growing from where I come from, and we won’t stop on your word. By the way, I don’t have a job, and the paid work I do every once in a while earns me quite a bit more than minimum wage. You see, I’m multi-skilled – people get me to do all sorts of things that need doing. Getting rich quick isn’t what I’m interested in. I’m focused on learning and growing my knowledge and skills through theory and practicals – this actually slows me down on money earning…but the long term effect is good (highly productive) for everyone around me. And yes, I technically do live in poverty – like a king. The land feeds me well.
Re: science fails on BIG questions – Bernie: You’ll find out soon enough in life that not only doesn’t your childish fantasy work so well but that it doesn’t work at all. Science on the other hand works for everyone whether they believe it or not. Religion only works for those who use it to control the minds and actions of people like you.
That’s a risk I’m willing to take. Oh yea, science doesn’t address the BIG questions. And my religion is between me and God first, so it isn’t about mind control from other people – although I talk with others about belief, and they with me.
Re: Hitler educated – Bernie: Yeah and in a Protestant seminary for three years where he went to answer his calling from Jesus Christ to spread the Christian gospel according to his own words. But like most fundamentalist Bible believers Hitler knew nothing about science which is why he insisted the German public schools not teach evolution but rather Christian creationism.
So you concede that Albert’s criterion were met in the case of Hitler.
Re: Albert no explain – Bernie: This is true Christian absurdity and arrogance gone into orbit! We have an admitted drop out who is questioning statements by Albert Einstein! Don’t you think Einstein is just a little over your head bagins? Of course not. You and other creationists actually think elementary and secondary school students are qualified to make judgments about the validity of evolutionary theory as well as other scientific theories!
You hate it when nitwitted rednecks like myself out smart you don’t you? You probably didn’t even know what Albert said, probably thought it just had a nice ring to it?
Re: Bernie would rape and kill believers – Bernie: That guess is based on what exactly? Tell us all exactly how you come to that conclusion. I don’t believe in raping or killing anybody nor could I ever believe in a God who commanded those things.
I came to the conclusion based on how hatefully you treat people on this blog – and your own admission about the meaning of the universe [i.e. zero]. You’re a little different and you’d never pass up a chance to demean or otherwise maim believers.
Bernie: But you can and you’re proud of it. Suppose you believed your God commanded you and others to rape and kill unbelievers the way the Bible says he did in the past. Would you do it?
The Bible doesn’t say that, but I might kill murders and rapists in a fit of passion – as the Bible said the Israelites did.
Bernie: Don’t avoid this question. I need an answer to this on your very next post. I’m not letting you off the hook on this one buddy. Would you rape and kill if you believed you were commanded by your God to do so?
I would kill if it was God’s will – as I mentioned evil-doers, murders and rapists would be faced with wrath. However, I can’t conceive of how raping would be a part of anything that I would ever consider.
Re: Teach me! – Bernie: I taught my children. You’re not my responsibility and you don’t want to learn anything anyway or you would be in school.
School doesn’t hold the only key to learning…ha-ha. Why don’t you teach me outside of school, here? You talk to me all the time yet you can’t help me, humanist? I want to learn, I want to learn.
Bernie: It’s obvious that you parents didn’t teach you proper morals and ethics and the consequences of your behavior. Instead of parenting you themselves they frightened you with the invisible boogyman in the sky. You are a poster child for bad parenting. What kind of parent lets their child quit school? A parent that has no respect for intelligence or education and passed this lack of respect for these things right on to their son.
Well, you can talk to them if you like, and tell them how bad they are. Though, I’ll warn you, they may run you off with a shotgun or two and a pack of dogs. If you think I’m a poor product of poor parenting then so be it. I don’t feel like that matters very much.
Re: What is morality now? – Bernie: It’s a lot further evolved than it was in the days when the Bible was written. If someone were to get their morals out of the Bible they would think there is nothing wrong with slavery because the Bible not only condones slavery it regulates its practice. But like everything else human morality evolves. Except in the religious mind. Nothing in that mind can ever change.
What do you appeal to in order to condemn the Bible and its morals? What absolute truth? The slavery of the Bible wasn’t as bad as you think. All Israelites were released on the seventh year of their service. The foreigners had it tougher, but they too were protected by Torah. Also, maybe these foreign slaves were criminals (of war or peace) – but in any case the surrounding nations would sell them to Israel. We don’t have all the details, but I tend to give the Bible the benefit of the doubt, whereas you jump at every opportunity to condemn it…strange, huh? If they were criminals of some sort, then it sounds like a lot like the jail/criminal justice system of the United States.
Re: Where did spacetime come from? – Bernie: You could look the answer up to that question yourself but you won’t because you won’t like the answer you get. I’m not wasting time explaining complex scientific theories to a person who couldn’t understand them in the first place and is afraid to even consider them for fear of being punished in hell for doing that in the second.
Umm, I tried looking up that answer, but it wasn’t there. Funny, you aren’t providing an answer either. But, if you do have one, by chance, maybe you could dumb it down for me…I mean, you gotta try don’t you, humanist?
Re: Spacetime and the difference between humans and space – Bernie: Those questions have plausible scientific and philosophical explanations. But they are over your head until you to go back to school. For a long, long time.
Spit them out silly. Let me decide when something is over my head, and you decide when something is over you head, OK?
Re: Population abuse – Bernie: The “rest of the world” is laughing and poking fun at the 20 to 30 million people in the world who share your childish worldview. That’s right call standing scientific explanations ridiculous and a book that says dead people came back to life and climbed out of their graves “true.” ROFL!
Let them laugh, you still don’t explain anything – ha-ha – that’s why I can’t help but laugh. Let’s hear some scientific explanations already. I like to deal with meat and potatoes, but you’re dealing in something very lesser.
Re: Science doesn’t answer the BIG questions – Bernie: Science has not only challenged your creationist superstitions it has steam rolled them into oblivion. “God: The Failed Hypothesis, How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist” by Victor Stenger would not be a best seller if what you said had any merit at all.
Jesusneverexisted.com would not be one of the most popular websites if what you said were true.
You are appealing to popularity again – FALLACY! Wow, guy, why don’t you try making salient points instead? Ever hear of Mob Rule – sounds like you’d be running with the masses, at best.
Re: no answer about morality – Bernie: Anyone including you can scroll up to post #60 and see that I did indeed answer your question about morality. How exactly is that not an answer? Because you can’t accept it as a result of your religious brainwashing and inability to grasp even the simplest concepts because you have no education?
Useless answers are not accepted. I’ve explained how your “answer” fails. I can’t put your answer to work in my life because it’s useless.
Re: Bernie wants to kill believers (emotionally/physically) – Bernie: I don’t respect YOUR emotions or anyone’s emotions that come directly from religious brainwashing. To sooth your damaged ego you must tell yourself that if I don’t respect your emotions I must not respect anyone’s. But that simply isn’t true. Besides if I’ve ever seen a rude overbearing blowhard that doesn’t deserve any respect from any other human it would be you. Then you have to pretend that because I mock the absurd and dishonest things you say that means I would also kill you. The things you say are just childish.
I know you don’t respect believers emotions, that wasn’t the question, slick willy. I asked you why you didn’t respect believers emotions. I wouldn’t say that you don’t respect anyone’s emotions – I’m sure you respect your own very much. But since you don’t respect believer’s emotions then it sounds like someone like Hitler could easily recruit you to kill believers. You’re a sick fellow it sounds like…unless you explain your way out of the pickle you’ve got yourself in…you’re between a rock and a hard place.
Re: What does Bernie appeal to, to justify his behavior? – Bernie: The way I behave toward you and other uneducated and inherently dishonest people like you is justified by your own rudeness, childishness, dishonesty, willful ignorance, arrogance, name calling and downright evil nature. You haven’t got the stomach for it because mommy and daddy let you get away with that kind of behavior instead of teaching you that if you do that out in the real world people will give it back to you double and hurt your feelings. Go tell mommy and daddy on me why don’t you?
So if someone believes something different than you, and they weren’t fortunate enough to be educated you might kill them? You hate them, what magical barrier is stopping you? I am gonna tell my mommy and daddy on you, you’ll be sorry mister.
Back at home: “A mean stranger is picking on me. He doesn’t like to play with me. Wah-wah, help me mommy. Bernie is a really evil man. He hateses me because I’m different.”
Re: Why does Bernie attack, attack, attack – Bernie: Nature? As I just explained your evil nature earned you yet another verbal smack down and humiliation at the hands of an infidel. People have a tendency to get what they deserve in life. Too bad your parents didn’t teach you that. Now again, if you believed your God commanded you to kill and rape unbelievers would you do it? Don’t tell me your God would never do that unless you are willing to admit the Bible is lying about that. Don’t avoid the question. I told you this would not end well for you man.
Ow, that smack down really hurt me mommy, Bernie hurt me, do something! The infidel likes to hurt little ole me. He says I deserve to be torn apart because you raised me to be the way I am mommy. I don’t get it, what is wrong with that man mommy? Is something stuck up his butt? Something that bothers him all the time, and he takes revenge on poor, weak, helpless people for his suffering. He can’t just handle it on his own, he has to hurt people. What a sick man, don’t you think mommy?
I already answered your silly question, ask a follow up if you need too. By the way, I have a few unbelieving friends, but none of them act like you. I suppose they aren’t quite so entrenched in the treachery of that belief system as you are… And I know this won’t end well for me, if you have any say…it’ll be the death of me (or at least the death of my poor ego).
JD42,
You said you knew I really believed in God. Do you also think I believe in angels, demons, Satan, Jesus, seraphs, that I believe people lived for centuries just a few thousand years ago, that there were 9 feet tall giants in Palestine, that vegetation was on the earth BEFORE the sun and moon even existed, that every firstborn Egyptian child died on one night, or that dead people climbed out of their graves and appeared to many other people in Jerusalem? You can’t seriously expect me or any other intelligent freethinking person to believe in any of that nonsense and you know it too. But believing in YOUR God, the Bible God requires that one believe in all that unbelievable nonsense! So you may tell yourself whatever you want to avoid thinking that your God is sending people to hell who have no idea that he exists and therefore were never given a fair shake, a fair chance to accept or reject him. But no sane person believes in a being like Satan and if Satan doesn’t exist than neither does the Christian God. I don’t want to debate you either but I do want to see how you respond to this post. You’re going to have to think and the reason I’m on this blog is to get people to think. Once most of the world starts thinking religions will naturally disappear. We’ll never miss them, especially yours.
Re: aggression – Bernie: None I don’t believe in violence or physical aggression.
So you believe in verbal/mental violence and aggression, but a magic barrier prevents you from acting out your mentalities/hatred.
Answer: Yeah when someone is bothering me after I’ve told them to go away, I usually intimidate them verbally. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Germany of the first half of the 20th century is a rather blatant one… There are many others that actually permitted murder, many that still do… If the government is murdering people, then that suffices for me in this discussion.
Answer: True German Christians did round up anyone who did not profess faith in Christ and murder them. Not just six million Jews either but five million pagans, deists, atheists and other non-Christians simply because they were not Christians. The Holocaust was a totally Christian deed. This shows how dangerous people are who think that their commands from the Bible supercede any human laws. The Holocaust deniers are the Christians, they did it. This is why we must stamp out all religion and adopt philosophical worldviews. We can’t have the Christians committing any more Holocausts or going on any more Crusades are having any more Inquisitions. Your religion is too dangerous when there are nuclear weapons now available for Christians to wage their holy wars with.
So there isn’t much point in an ignorant person trying to explain anything, right? You expect me to believe that?
Answer: No you won’t believe it because it’s true. Your religion doesn’t allow truth because it has its own version of truth.
Thank you for sparing me! Ha-ha, hypocrite – your whole point for being here is allegedly to try to cause religious people to think.
Answer: There are a few Christian thinkers on this blog. You’re not one of them though.
Absolute statements like that require absolute knowledge…I think I read that somewhere recently.
Answer: Yeah but it has nothing to do with what I said so you obviously don’t know what it means.
Explaining something by saying “common sense” doesn’t explain anything. You see, I lack that “common sense”, which is why I continually ask you to explain yourself.
As for me, I believe that God created this universe. I believe that humans are created in God’s image – as the Bible says, but rocks are not. I can conceive of no other solution to the problem of the universe’s existence.
Answer: That’s your problem. Just saying you don’t understand something so God must have done it is certainly not reflective of the American entrepreneurial spirit or American ingenuity to say the least. You don’t want to the solution to the problem of the universe.
You believe in nature and science. So what separates a rock from a human? Chemical reactions? Well then, what separates a mixture of vinegar and baking soda from a human (a mixture of chemicals/reactions)? What on earth are you appealing to? Human beings come first? Oh, right, believers aren’t consider human beings by yourself – which is why you would slaughter, not murder.
Answer: You are really getting desperate. I never said or even implied believers aren’t considered humans or that I would slaughter anyone.
That doesn’t exactly capture what I think. If I thought humans were worthless, then I would have no problem with your way of thinking (which necessitates just that). You live out your fallacies by being widely disrespectful to human life here.
Answer: Again you tell a big fat lie. I just said I was a humanist and humans come first. Yet you falsely claim that my way of thinking make humans worthless and that I am disrespectful to life.
Mocking your dishonesty and your stupid false claims isn’t being disrespectful.
I don’t have a clue.
Answer: That’s for sure.
You hate it when nitwitted rednecks like myself out smart you don’t you? You probably didn’t even know what Albert said, probably thought it just had a nice ring to it?
Answer: You couldn’t outsmart a third grader.
The Bible doesn’t say that, but I might kill murders and rapists in a fit of passion – as the Bible said the Israelites did.
Answer: That says it all. Religion in the mind of someone like you is all the proof we need that it is absolutely imperative that we bring an end to this cultural disaster known as Christianity. See that the rest of you Christians? This bagins is ready to kill unbelievers if he even gets a whiff of an idea that his God wants him to. Don’t any of you people ever ask me why I hate your religion again. I just cut and paste what this religious psycho just said about murdering people for Jesus.
I would kill if it was God’s will – as I mentioned evil-doers, murders and rapists would be faced with wrath. However, I can’t conceive of how raping would be a part of anything that I would ever consider.
Answer: You’ve said enough. I’m sending it to several members of Congress. I belong to Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I know how to get their attention. Thanks. You just helped speed up the death of your religion.
School doesn’t hold the only key to learning…ha-ha. Why don’t you teach me outside of school, here? You talk to me all the time yet you can’t help me, humanist? I want to learn, I want to learn.
Answer: An education proves you are disciplined and can be trained. You are neither and I doubt you ever will be. Good.
What do you appeal to in order to condemn the Bible and its morals?
Answer: Obviously you’ve never read it. The Bible God is the murderous character in all of literature. Good thing he doesn’t exist. Check Evilbible.com.
What absolute truth?
Answer: Nothing much more than a philosophical and theological plaything.
Useless answers are not accepted. I’ve explained how your “answer” fails. I can’t put your answer to work in my life because it’s useless.
Answer: You didn’t explain anything because you can’t. My answer doesn’t fail just because you can’t accept it. If you say it fails then say exactly how because so far you;ve said nothing.
I know you don’t respect believers emotions, that wasn’t the question, slick willy. I asked But since you don’t respect believer’s emotions then it sounds like someone like Hitler could easily recruit you to kill believers.
Answer: Hitler and his minions were Christians who killed unbelievers just exactly for the same reason YOU just admitted you would: because he thought Jesus wanted him to. Fact of history. So it is YOU who already admitted you would have gladly been recruited by Adolph Hitler your dear Christian brother, to kill unbelievers. You admitted it. Who is your congressman? You are a very dangerous individual.
You’re a sick fellow it sounds like…unless you explain your way out of the pickle you’ve got yourself in…you’re between a rock and a hard place.
Answer: Look whose talking KILLER. Christian. Killer. Yep, just like old times they still go hand in hand.
So if someone believes something different than you, and they weren’t fortunate enough to be educated you might kill them? You hate them, what magical barrier is stopping you? I am gonna tell my mommy and daddy on you, you’ll be sorry mister.
Answer: I don’t hate anyone. Again you make false accusations because you are getting whipped intellectually.
Ow, that smack down really hurt me mommy, Bernie hurt me, do something! The infidel likes to hurt little ole me. He says I deserve to be torn apart because you raised me to be the way I am mommy. I don’t get it, what is wrong with that man mommy? Is something stuck up his butt?
Answer: And people complain about what I post!
Something that bothers him all the time, and he takes revenge on poor, weak, helpless people for his suffering. He can’t just handle it on his own, he has to hurt people. What a sick man, don’t you think mommy?
Answer: I’m helping other people by pointing out what kind of person you are. Hopefully some Christians will think twice about being a member of a religion that has people like you in it and will reject their Christian superstitions. That’s all they are anyway. Dangerous superstitions especially in a mind prone to violence and murder like your is by your own admission.
And I know this won’t end well for me, if you have any say…it’ll be the death of me (or at least the death of my poor ego).
Answer: I’m done with you. I’m sick of you implying that I’ve said things that I clearly never did, that I think things that I don’t and nobody does, that I would do things that I wouldn’t and almost no one would do. In short I’m sick of all the outright lies you tell about me. I’m sick of you. I’m glad to know that you have a miserable existence ahead of you. People as dishonest, nasty, rude and childish as you are deserve nothing else. I doubt I will waste any more time reading your drivel, your lies, your false claims and your insane rants. Just let me know when you think God wants you to kill some unbelievers or you join the American Nazi Party. You’ll be right at home there with all the other Bible believers who think just like you.
but I might kill murders and rapists in a fit of passion – as the Bible said the Israelites did.
Answer: Uh, the murderers and rapists in the Bible WERE the Israelites.
Re: aggression – Bernie: Yeah when someone is bothering me after I’ve told them to go away, I usually intimidate them verbally. There’s nothing wrong with that.
This isn’t “your land” – you don’t get to tell people to go away, they are free to stay. If you start trying to make rules in someone else’s house it is you who will be thrown out by the master.
Re: Germany – Bernie: True German Christians did round up anyone who did not profess faith in Christ and murder them. … The Holocaust was a totally Christian deed. This shows how dangerous people are who think that their commands from the Bible supercede any human laws. … This is why we must stamp out all religion and adopt philosophical worldviews.
Nazi’s are a perfect example of who I’d be willing to fight against…as a Christian.
Re: Ignorance – Bernie: No you won’t believe it because it’s true. Your religion doesn’t allow truth because it has its own version of truth.
A big reason why I don’t believe you is because you won’t explain yourself in a logical way. Apparently that is “beneath” you (i.e. teaching me).
Re: causing people to think – Bernie: There are a few Christian thinkers on this blog. You’re not one of them though.
Good, you don’t approve of me with your backwards set of rules.
Re: Absolution – Bernie: Yeah but it has nothing to do with what I said so you obviously don’t know what it means.
So you still don’t make any sense.
Re: no common sense – Bernie: That’s your problem. Just saying you don’t understand something so God must have done it is certainly not reflective of the American entrepreneurial spirit or American ingenuity to say the least. You don’t want to the solution to the problem of the universe.
The problem I’m having with you is that you won’t explain your point of view in any sort of meaningful manner. You say it works, but you won’t show how – or even provide a hint.
Re: Bernie’s random universe – Bernie: You are really getting desperate. I never said or even implied believers aren’t considered humans or that I would slaughter anyone.
I’ve been desperate with you for a long time buddy. Fact is, you have displayed hatred for believers, and Jesus says that makes you guilty. He’s right you know.
Re: Bernie is disrespectful – Bernie: Again you tell a big fat lie. I just said I was a humanist and humans come first. Yet you falsely claim that my way of thinking make humans worthless and that I am disrespectful to life.
Mocking your dishonesty and your stupid false claims isn’t being disrespectful.
You said humans come first, and then you attack believers with hatred. What should I believe – what you say or what you do? As few years as I’ve been on this earth I’ve learned that it’s what you do that really indicates who you are… Otherwise slick salesmen like yourself would be heralded. Wouldn’t you love that?
You couldn’t tell a stupid false claim from the broad side of a barn.
Re: clueless – Bernie: That’s for sure.
Yep.
Re: Outsmarted – Bernie: You couldn’t outsmart a third grader.
What’s that make you? Ha-ha.
Re: defending good, fighting evil – Bernie: That says it all. Religion in the mind of someone like you is all the proof we need that it is absolutely imperative that we bring an end to this cultural disaster known as Christianity. See that the rest of you Christians? This bagins is ready to kill unbelievers if he even gets a whiff of an idea that his God wants him to. Don’t any of you people ever ask me why I hate your religion again. I just cut and paste what this religious psycho just said about murdering people for Jesus.
Your damn right it says it all. Regimes like the Nazis would be faced with the wrath of God – and I’ll gladly follow God’s call on that one. Murders and rapists are your pals though, so you’d help them destroy the innocent people (and other lifeforms) of the world – just as you try to do here – online.
Re: killing evil – Bernie: You’ve said enough. I’m sending it to several members of Congress. I belong to Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I know how to get their attention. Thanks. You just helped speed up the death of your religion.
Bernie will hinder freedom for his own convenience, since humans are worthless to him in the scheme of things. Anyway, I’ll expect those people to come knock down my door and cart me off for a death sentence – as per Bernie’s request.
Re: education, train me – Bernie: An education proves you are disciplined and can be trained. You are neither and I doubt you ever will be. Good.
I am trained in a few disciplines, and continue to be trained every day of my life. God trains me.
Re: How condemn the Bible – Bernie: Obviously you’ve never read it. The Bible God is the murderous character in all of literature. Good thing he doesn’t exist. Check Evilbible.com.
Ha-ha. You send me to a biased viewpoint instead of to the Bible itself. You must be brainwashed my friend. And yes, I’ve read the Bible a few times…it’s part of my training. Though I could use a couple more readings/note-takings to really get a handle on things, to more effectively deal with criticism from people like you.
Re: What absolute truth – Bernie: Nothing much more than a philosophical and theological plaything.
So how do you know which way to behave? And why do you think I should behave in the same way as you?
Re: Useless answer denied – Bernie: You didn’t explain anything because you can’t. My answer doesn’t fail just because you can’t accept it. If you say it fails then say exactly how because so far you;ve said nothing.
You explained everything about one simple sentence or less. You haven’t elaborated on the core of it, despite my many questions. You just don’t have anything useful to say. You’re just like fiat currency – you got nothing to back yourself up. People should stop holding, and switch to real money.
Re: question dodge – potential Hitler minion – Bernie: Hitler and his minions were Christians who killed unbelievers just exactly for the same reason YOU just admitted you would: because he thought Jesus wanted him to. Fact of history. So it is YOU who already admitted you would have gladly been recruited by Adolph Hitler your dear Christian brother, to kill unbelievers. You admitted it. Who is your congressman? You are a very dangerous individual.
So you still failed to answer the question and you go on to accuse me, fine. Hitler would be my enemy if he existed. I would do what I could to stop him – I would fight to the death in a cause to stop him and anyone like him.
Re: Bernie’s sick – Bernie: Look whose talking KILLER. Christian. Killer. Yep, just like old times they still go hand in hand.
Yes, I would fight Hitler and I would probably have to kill (and be killed) in the process. Killing is never something I want to do – but like I implied, it could be very necessary to protect the innocent people of the world – because I hate evil.
Re: I’m telling mommy – Bernie: I don’t hate anyone. Again you make false accusations because you are getting whipped intellectually.
Then stop treating Christians as if they are some filthy class that you can deride to your hearts content sicko. You provide no intellect and all emotionally charged hate-speak.
Re: Bernie’s got a problem – Bernie: And people complain about what I post!
That’s because you continually sicken people with your anti-God propaganda. You have no basis for making such claims EXCEPT HATRED.
Re: Bernie preys on weak people – Bernie: I’m helping other people by pointing out what kind of person you are. Hopefully some Christians will think twice about being a member of a religion that has people like you in it and will reject their Christian superstitions. That’s all they are anyway. Dangerous superstitions especially in a mind prone to violence and murder like your is by your own admission.
You aren’t helping anyone. I just asked you to teach me and you refused saying I am bad. Now you think I’m a blood-thirsty monster because I said I would fight/kill people like Hitler to stop him. You haven’t even tried to teach me, but you have torn up my ego. Tearing up believers’ egos is your only purpose for being here – it’s a mission based solely on hatred. I suppose you would stand at Hitler’s side while he murders people with a smile on your face. Maybe you’re right, we should all try to be more like Bernie.
Re: Bernie wants to kill – Bernie: I’m done with you. I’m sick of you implying that I’ve said things that I clearly never did, that I think things that I don’t and nobody does, that I would do things that I wouldn’t and almost no one would do. In short I’m sick of all the outright lies you tell about me. I’m sick of you. I’m glad to know that you have a miserable existence ahead of you. People as dishonest, nasty, rude and childish as you are deserve nothing else. I doubt I will waste any more time reading your drivel, your lies, your false claims and your insane rants. Just let me know when you think God wants you to kill some unbelievers or you join the American Nazi Party. You’ll be right at home there with all the other Bible believers who think just like you.
You just implied that you wouldn’t fight/kill the Nazis (evil-doers, murderers, rapists) like I would. That is how you separate yourself from me. What a model for everyone to learn from… I’m not lying about you, you’re telling me these things – by treating people with hatred and by saying that the universe is random/meaningless. If I have a miserable existence ahead of me it will be because of people like you attacking me because I believe in God and caring for people – I pray that I have the strength to endure this for God till I am killed or I die. I’m not at all surprised that you wish evil on people who believe in God and the ultimate, absolute good. It goes hand in hand with your belief system.
Also, I still oppose the Nazi muderers and any government that gains too much power over the people. The power-holders are weak, and they will be tempted into setting up the world to suit themselves – and I will oppose them because I believe in God.
b baggins: Doesn’t TPWDE talk a load of rubbish! He knows nothing!
b baggins: Doesn’t TPWDE talk a load of rubbish! He knows nothing!
Answer: Load of rubbish? What’s this?
bagins: Murders and rapists are your pals though, so you’d help them destroy the innocent people (and other lifeforms) of the world – just as you try to do here – online.
Answer: That’s not true and you know it. But the great part about you saying that is that everyone else knows it too and you just discredited anything else you might post on this blog. Make up some more desperate lies so we can all see what kind of people Christians really are. You’re a perfect example of a fundamentalist Christian, false accuser and compulsive liar, hasn’t read the Bible. Keep it up. You’ve already discredited yourself with all your false accusations, lies, immaturity and nastiness and now you’re discrediting your Christian religion too. I love it! Who in their right mind would want to be involved with a religion that has people like you promoting it in public? It isn’t people like me who are killing Christianity it’s people just like YOU. Thanks. Keep it up you’re shining example. Hahaha
What you are really saying is that anyone who accepts a naturalistic explanation for the universe, like I do, is automatically associated with with murderers and rapists. This clearly illustrates the narrow-minded intolerance, prejudice and hate fundamentalist Christians have for anyone who doesn’t share their warped worldview. You accused me of hating people but I don’ hate anyone. I hate bad ideology and when I attacked yours you took it personally because first you have no case against criticisms of your religion and second you’re far too immature to take constructive criticism, and third you are a member of the shakiest belief system in the world losing about 5000 adherents a day in the US alone. You don’t want to be next because the only reason you’re Christian is to avoid hell. The joke is on you there dude. What a waste of humanity.
Uh, Bernie…just a thought………..
Once upon a time[smile], me and my best friend, the F. L. A.[Ferox] were for a time the two most annoying people to post here and argue with Christians regularly……but as time progressed and we all got to know one another better, Ferox and I became “somewhat less annoying”[not that I still don't act like a jerk at times], accepted, and now, why even the ferocious Ferox was able to leave with at least TWO friends on this site. I think that it has to do with four main reasons….
1.We were weird and amusing.
2.We posted with some degree of “Fair Play”.
3.We displayed empathy/sympathy for some posters.
And 4.We posted with some degree of personal humility.
You do not appear to post with very many or any of these attributes.
You seem overbearing and unfair, either driving people away from interaction with you or making people feel defensive and/or annoyed. If you really want to reach the people here and help them in…whatever ways you think that they need your help thinking about theology, then may I respectfully suggest a change of tactics. You claim not to insult others here, but honestly Bernie, if I were to try and present to you a compilation of all of the things within your posts that, just to non-Christian me, looked like personal insults to people[not their ideology/religion], I wouldn’t even want to start only because I’m feeling lazy and there are so darn many[snicker]! Perhaps your not as antagonistic as you seem to be, as people often read others posts without knowing fully what the tone or mindset of the person presenting the post is, but from the very beginning it seemed as if you came on here to fight, so naturally people may think of the mind behind the words as hostile and unfair, reading your words as if you are talking fast and with a mocking sarcastic tone, and nobody want’s to learn anything from someone who sounds like an uncaring @$$. Whether you realize it or not, you have become a stereotype of the kind of a person that Christian fanatics in our country claim are trying to destroy America. Don’t be the kind of antagonist that they want you to be, Bernie.
Perhaps you should take a break and think about things.
Re: Bernie wants to destroy – Bernie: That’s not true and you know it.
You mostly attack people on here, but you also attack quality ways of thinking. The trouble is you provide nothing to fill the void you attempt to create – and you never attempt to mend the damage you cause to other people.
Bernie: But the great part about you saying that is that everyone else knows it too and you just discredited anything else you might post on this blog.
You’re a good messenger boy. Thanks for the update. Everything that I say has always been discredited to you anyway – if other people feel the same they can speak for themselves (I know I wouldn’t want you speaking for me).
Bernie: Make up some more desperate lies so we can all see what kind of people Christians really are.
Sure thing. Bernie is a cool guy; the way Bernie thinks is bullet-proof; everyone should be more like Bernie…is that enough desperate lies for you?
Bernie: You’re a perfect example of a fundamentalist Christian, false accuser and compulsive liar, hasn’t read the Bible.
Ha-ha – hasn’t read the Bible? False accuser and compulsive liar? What are you getting at Bernie?
Bernie: Keep it up.
Sure thing boss.
Bernie: You’ve already discredited yourself with all your false accusations, lies, immaturity and nastiness and now you’re discrediting your Christian religion too. I love it!
Let this statement from Bernie be an example to everyone – he tries to sway people with claims that aren’t backed up by truth – just as his entire worldview is not backed up in truth. He certainly can’t explain how his beliefs are supported.
Bernie: Who in their right mind would want to be involved with a religion that has people like you promoting it in public?
You’d feel better about me if you weren’t such a hateful person.
Bernie: It isn’t people like me who are killing Christianity it’s people just like YOU. Thanks. Keep it up you’re shining example. Hahaha
Well, you’re right about one thing, you aren’t killing Christianity for me. Thanks, I’ll keep letting my light shine and I’ll try to provide flavor to the earth.
Bernie: What you are really saying is that anyone who accepts a naturalistic explanation for the universe, like I do, is automatically associated with with murderers and rapists.
Not exactly. You’re hatred confirms your belief system, and anyone who is not confirmed in such a way could not be associated with murderers and rapists like you are.
Bernie: This clearly illustrates the narrow-minded intolerance, prejudice and hate fundamentalist Christians have for anyone who doesn’t share their warped worldview.
I have friends who are unbelievers, but they do not live the belief system as well you do – i.e. they do not routinely attack believers with hatred. You’re one of these militant naturalists, mobilizing for the destruction of fine ideas.
Bernie: You accused me of hating people but I don’ hate anyone. I hate bad ideology and when I attacked yours you took it personally because first you have no case against criticisms of your religion and second you’re far too immature to take constructive criticism, and third you are a member of the shakiest belief system in the world losing about 5000 adherents a day in the US alone.
You attack believers here constantly (it goes well beyond their beliefs), so I believe that you hate believers themselves. You’re alternative ideology has proven to be hollow thus far, due to your failure to explain. Also, you consider it “beneath” you to explain things to believers like me…simply because I’m a believer – just another example of your hatred of believers. I am constructively criticized all the time, but your mindless attacks do not qualify as such – thus how can they be taken as such? You mentioning that my belief system is failing is only an attempt to create doubt in my mind, but I reject your attempt again. It is a fallacious attempt – by means of an appeal to popularity – your favorite error.
Bernie: You don’t want to be next because the only reason you’re Christian is to avoid hell. The joke is on you there dude. What a waste of humanity.
Avoiding hell is not a unworthy pursuit – like driving safely on the roads or not jumping off of cliffs. I prefer loving environments more than I prefer to have everything my way – that is the fundamental difference between me and you. **You would rather destroy a loving environment in order to get your way – FACT – you do it here all the time, and never explain yourself. That’s no joke, and if only humanity wasn’t sucked into your way of handling things – we could be so much better off with God’s way.
Bernie, what do you think about this video?
Just type in this…”metacafe video What Makes Someone Extraordinary?”
Your thoughts?
You attack believers here constantly
Answer: Not true. I don’t attack anybody. But some Christians on this blog constantly call me various names, insult me, attack my integrity, make up lies about me, make false accusations, it’s really incredible. I criticize bad ideas and I expose the lies Christian fundamentalists post on this blog by showing exactly why they are lies. I exposed plagiarizers like Mike and Paul who blatantly repeatedly copied articles from their religious leader’s websites as if they were their own words. They still post articles and if they hadn’t gotten busted they’d still be stealing intellectual property. You know biblical commands are for other people to follow, not the fundamentalists themselves. I don’t expect to be popular with the people who I have exposed as being intellectually dishonest in one way or another. Dishonest people with bad ideas don’t like to be exposed, do you?
Bernie: Not true. I don’t attack anybody.
I hope you won’t, but I sure can’t stop you here.
Bernie: But some Christians on this blog constantly call me various names, insult me, attack my integrity, make up lies about me, make false accusations, it’s really incredible.
Well, quite frankly people have [justifiably] plenty to complain about in terms of your methods here.
Bernie: I criticize bad ideas and I expose the lies Christian fundamentalists post on this blog by showing exactly why they are lies.
It would be good if you criticized bad ideas, but that’s not what you do. You attack Christians and God.
Bernie: I exposed plagiarizers like Mike and Paul who blatantly repeatedly copied articles from their religious leader’s websites as if they were their own words. They still post articles and if they hadn’t gotten busted they’d still be stealing intellectual property.
I bet it wasn’t as bad as you wanted it to be, probably just a careless mistake?
Bernie: You know biblical commands are for other people to follow, not the fundamentalists themselves.
Nothing could be further from the truth, but there are plenty of hypocrites trying to mingle with Christians.
Bernie: I don’t expect to be popular with the people who I have exposed as being intellectually dishonest in one way or another. Dishonest people with bad ideas don’t like to be exposed, do you?
No we don’t…hey! Oh well.
John: #85. I loved your post. Yes, you certainly have mellowed.
I don’t think TPWDE wants to help us, he is determined to attack (Yes TPWDE….attack) Christians and everyone who doesn’t agree with him. It has been frustrating to debate with people like that. Annoying….and sometimes offensive and upsetting. But I think I have got to the place (as TruthTalk has not found it necessary to come to the decision of taking him off!….and they still stay silent on the subject!) where I see the funny side of his abhorrent behaviour towards others.
I’m not sure if he truly believes everything he says is true, but he lashes out with such absurd accusations that I feel all he is doing is putting his very adverse feelings into any words he can find to type out on his worn our keyboard. What a sad life he leads. Is this his only purpose for living?
b baggins: You know how to answer a fool!
And Mike was right when he said TPWDE was a liar. I can say that as a truth and not to attack TPWDE personally. Everything he has said to us has literally been based on lies…..and yet…..he comes right back and accuses us!! One wonders what made him the way he is. Sad indeed.
#88: ”You attack believers here constantly.
And TPWDE’s Answer: Not true. I don’t attack anybody. ”
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
TPWDE, you really are a seriously deluded soul! I don’t know whether to laugh at you or cry for you!
Maz post 90,
Really?
Thank you.
John: I have got quite fond of you….in a brotherly-sisterly way! (Though I am actually old enough to be your mother!
) I’m sure if we met, we would probably get on pretty well! Certainly you have a far better attitude towards others who do not agree with you than some unmentionables! You have a likeable personality, with a touch of sarcasm and humour thrown in for good measure! 
Well, quite frankly people have [justifiably] plenty to complain about in terms of your methods here.
Answer: My methods are extremely effective. I have completely destroyed the religious faith of every fundamentalist Christian on this blog including you. Every one of you is experiencing a stupefying combination of rage and panic. Faith for you fundies now takes on a whole new meaning. For you and all the fundies on this blog faith now means believing what you know is not true.
It would be good if you criticized bad ideas, but that’s not what you do. You attack Christians and God.
Answer: Prove it. First I can’t attack something that does not exist and the existence of your God has been refuted by science and about a thousand times over too. It has also been proved that Jesus Christ never existed. I challenge you to provide proof from outside the Bible that he did. Don’t ignore the challenge. The panic you feel when you find out there isn’t anything will be enough to push you right off the edge. All you Christians let’s see what evidence you have for your imaginary God.
I bet it wasn’t as bad as you wanted it to be, probably just a careless mistake?
Answer: Mistake? Let me describe what a hoaxer Mike really is. Mike and Paul are the SAME person posting under two different names. Notice how Paul always cheers Mike on after other people have refuted Mike’s stupid plagiarized claims. Do you think that’s a careless mistake too? Then this hoaxer calls ME a liar!
Nothing could be further from the truth, but there are plenty of hypocrites trying to mingle with Christians.
Answer: Oh please. Christians are best known for their hypocrisy and dishonesty and in fact today that is ALL they are known for anymore, now that we’ve stopped them from torturing and murdering unbelievers. They’ve never been know as charitable honest individuals but rather violent thugs who have been determined to force their delusions on the rest of the world through violence. That is the legacy of Christianity. Lies and violence and people like Adolph Hitler.
No we don’t…hey! Oh well.
Answer: Thanks for at least admitting you’re a liar. I mean you’ve been caught in dozens of lies in just your last few posts. But hey you’re a fundy Christian and so everything you believe is a lie. You can’t help but lie and it’s all you ever do.
TPWDE: ”My methods are extremely effective.”
You spelt offensive wrong!
Here’s how I spell offensive: Christianity
Every pastor says the gospel is an offense. Okay I’m offended.
No TPWDE: The Bible says the cross is an offence to those who do not believe. You see, there are people who just will not humble themselves before a Holy God and recognise that they are sinful and needing a Saviour. Pride and arrogance takes people to hell.
Maz post 94,
[in a sing-song voice]Thannnnnnnk you Maaaaaaaaazzzz.
I’m touched[smile].
Bernie post 95,
“They’ve never been know as charitable honest individuals but rather violent thugs…”
[image of a big Hound dog sharply cocking it's head to one side] Wha wha whaaaa? What?
Do you think that your being entirely fair here Bernie? What about St.Mother Teresa or Martin Luther King Jr.? Why, if I had a dollar..uh, make that ten dollars[toothy smile]..for every food or clothing drive that I’ve noticed or donated to that was started by a Christian denomination/organization then I would be a rather wealthy man. True, bad things like crusades, inquisitions, and slavery are a part of Christianity’s legacy, but these things are only a part of the legacy, not all of it. There are also things like Leviticus 19:18, 19:34, commandments 5,7,8,9,and 10, as well as various works of poetry and art.
My point here is that you seem to generalize people and their theologies too much. They["Christians"] are a most diverse group.
I suggest you read Chris Hitchen’s book on Mother Teresa. Hitchens followed the money you see. Penn and Teller had Hitchens on and he described how the money Mother Teresa collected did not go to feed the poor. It went to build and maintain nunneries that cranked out totally illiterate obedient nuns and to defend pedophile priests. Thanks for proving my point.
O.k., so I was ignorant about St. Mother Teresa and her finances, but that alone still does not prove your point Bernie.
Swap her name with that of John Muir, then[smile].
I think that your going to have to find faults[that justify the sweeping claims you have made]with more than just one, two, or even a hundred professing Christians in order to prove your point that the entire legacy of Christianity is based upon “Lies and violence and people like Adolf Hitler.”
Re: Poor methods – Bernie: My methods are extremely effective. I have completely destroyed the religious faith of every fundamentalist Christian on this blog including you.
You must wonder why we’re still arguing then – ha-ha.
Bernie: Every one of you is experiencing a stupefying combination of rage and panic. Faith for you fundies now takes on a whole new meaning. For you and all the fundies on this blog faith now means believing what you know is not true.
Yea man, I’m furious with you and I’m quivering with panic, but really, you still haven’t answered the questions you’ve been asked. Meaning, I don’t even know what you’re talking about…but yea, I’m still full of rage and panic. It’s what always happens when I’m dealing with a raving lunatic.
Re: attack Christians and God – Bernie: Prove it. First I can’t attack something that does not exist…
Prove it? – haha. So now Christians don’t exist to you? Does that make them easier to attack for you? Also, the existence of God has not been challenged by science in the least. You still haven’t explained where spacetime comes from or anything.
Bernie: …Jesus Christ never existed. I challenge you to provide proof from outside the Bible that he did.
Why would I worry with proof outside the Bible? Bernie, destroy all the evidence you and everyone has of your own birth – and then prove to me that you were ever born. Do it, now.
Re: Mike and Paul’s careless mistake – Bernie: Mistake? Let me describe what a hoaxer Mike really is. Mike and Paul are the SAME person posting under two different names. Notice how Paul always cheers Mike on after other people have refuted Mike’s stupid plagiarized claims. Do you think that’s a careless mistake too? Then this hoaxer calls ME a liar!
You are the same person as Dudley and Boris – you’ve been banned multiple times for your hate speak. You are a liar and a cheat. Perhaps you think I am Mike as well, since I disagree with you and so does Mike.
Re: hypocrite minglers – Bernie: Oh please. Christians are best known for their hypocrisy and dishonesty and in fact today that is ALL they are known for anymore, now that we’ve stopped them from torturing and murdering unbelievers. They’ve never been know as charitable honest individuals but rather violent thugs who have been determined to force their delusions on the rest of the world through violence. That is the legacy of Christianity. Lies and violence and people like Adolph Hitler.
I can’t clean up the history of those claiming to be Christian – like Hitler. I can tell you about the standard that Jesus set (or that you think someone made up) – very different from Hitler. It is morally above and beyond the history you “despise”. You act like any of this matters to you, but you never explain why it bothers you – you just say the universe is meaningless – there is no absolute truth – spew hatred – and other things that make it seem impossible for you to care about any of this.
Bernie: Thanks for at least admitting you’re a liar. I mean you’ve been caught in dozens of lies in just your last few posts. But hey you’re a fundy Christian and so everything you believe is a lie. You can’t help but lie and it’s all you ever do.
You’re welcome. Any time. You’re the only one that will have trouble admitting to faults – that’s the nature of the beast.
John: “O.k., so I was ignorant about St. Mother Teresa and her finances,” Hitchens’ book simply shows that he has the same poverty of spirit as Bernie. Mother Theresa often frustrated secular (and religious) humanitarian groups because she had no interest in politics or causes. She simply ministered to the poor dying people of Calcutta. She had no agenda. She did not use the money to “help the poor” because that was not her goal in the way that most people mean when they “help the poor.” She accepted, like Jesus said, that the poor will always be among us. Those of us who are always trying to “fix the poor” may have a hard time understanding Mother Theresa, because she simply wanted to love the poor. She never misrepresented her work. Others may have misrepresented or misunderstood her purpose, and sent money thinking it would go to “programs” like Heifer International or World Vision, but that is their own fault and not MTs.
Bernie: “It has also been proved that Jesus Christ never existed. I challenge you to provide proof from outside the Bible that he did.” Except that you discount all references “outside” the Bible as forgeries. You are as close minded on this topic as a “fundie”. The direct line from the Apostles to the Apostolic Fathers to the early church fathers is well established, and they all speak to the existence of Jesus, but you write them all off as co-conspirators. So really, what you mean is that no one who didn’t believe Jesus was divine at the time of his life, his crucifiction, or immediately after wrote anything about him that survived to this day. But that begs the question: why would they? If they weren’t one of his “followers” they would think he was another of the zillions of criminals crucified by Rome and hardly waste the ink to write about him. Or even if they did, why would it get saved by future generations convinced of his divinity? You place impossible conditions on the proof, then crow that there is none.
Kash,
Pliny, Tacitus, Suetonius and Josephus are the big four for Christian apologists. These are the historians apologists use to “prove” Jesus existed. The first three wrote around 112 CE and Josephus in 90 CE. 60 to 82 years after the supposed death of Jesus! And this is the best evidence there is for the supposed “best attested event in history!” Are you kidding me? These historians were writing from RUMORS at best and from six to eight decades earlier. They are not in any way contemporary with the supposed time or place of Jesus.
Have you actually read the 24 sentences apologists are talking about? Neither Pliny or Tacitus or Suetonius ever mentions Jesus of Nazareth by name but only the existence of Christians. Yet lying Christian apologists hoping one does what I’ve done and checks these passages, actually imply that these historians mention Jesus Christ by name. They do not, not once, and it should be noted that none of the fantastic events described in the gospels, many of which involve huge crowds, are mentioned in any historical documents anywhere either.
What historical figure has had people faking evidence, forging writings and spreading false rumors all to prove only that he existed for 2000 years? I mean it should be obvious that the early church was engaged in what turned out to be the biggest fraud and biggest cover-up in history.
“When the conception of a purely spiritual Christ could no longer successfully be imported to the turbulent masses, who clamored for a political savior, it was found necessary or expedient to substitute the idea of a personal Messiah… The swell of this substitute carried the Church Fathers to the limit of recasting the entire four Gospels in terms of a human biography” – Alvin Boyd Kuhn
“And this is the best evidence there is for the supposed “best attested event in history!”” No, the Biblical literature is the BEST evidence. You are the one who discounts that and will only consider the extra-Biblical “proofs”, even though that is a ridiculous condition. Why would anyone in the first century outside of the small, informal, probably mostly illiterate or at least too poor to have access to writing materials talk about Jesus? Of course it wasn’t until it became a major popular movement that it started to gain the attention of the powerful and their scribes! The absence of what you think would be corroborating evidence simply speaks to the truth of the gospel story rather than disproves it. People wrote about worldy power and glorious war. Jesus eschewed both.
Bernie: “What historical figure has had people faking evidence, forging writings and spreading false rumors all to prove only that he existed for 2000 years? I mean it should be obvious that the early church was engaged in what turned out to be the biggest fraud and biggest cover-up in history.” You have it backwards. It was later in history, when people wanted to make what began as a humble message of salvation into a pawn of the Empire that the forgeries and false teachings began. The great deception that was perpetrated in regards to Jesus was that his message was co-opted and corrputed by the Empire around the time of Eusebius. This continued until mass literacy and printing presses enabled laymen to read the scriptures for themselves rather than be at the mercy of priests and chuch authority, but unfortunately, by then the traditions of Empire were very firmly ensconced in the collective Christian consciousness and few groups have been able to completey throw off its trappings. The Jesus that is in the gopels is real and authentic precisely BECAUSE he is so different from the Roman and medieval church’s portrayal of him.
Answer: I’ve been having this debate for a long time and it is always eventually reduced to the Bible is true because it says it is. Or I say it is. The believers are always eventually forced to retreat from the façade of “evidence” because there really isn’t any and cling to their paper idol. The best evidence that the Jesus of the gospels existed is the gospels. The gospels are true well, uh… because… they’re the gospels. Sure. That’s like saying the evidence for Rudolph’s red nose is the song about him and the eyewitness testimony of Dancer. One Dancer is eliminated all we have is the song. And the song is true because who would write a song about a reindeer that never existed?
This is the problem with religion. You’re a very intelligent person, a good debater and very knowledgeable and intellectually honest. Yet when it comes to your religious beliefs you use selective observation in order to maintain them. You refuse to scrutinize what you’ve been pre-conditioned to believe. “It will not do to investigate the subject of religion too closely, as it is apt to lead to infidelity” – Abraham Lincoln
No kidding Honest Abe.
The Jesus that is in the gopels is real and authentic precisely BECAUSE he is so different from the Roman and medieval church’s portrayal of him.
Reply: That just will not do and you know it.
Answer: More different than you realize. On the theory that Christ was crucified, how shall we explain the fact that during the first eight centuries of the evolution of Christianity, Christian art represented a lamb, and not a man, as suffering on the cross for the salvation of the world? Neither the paintings in the Catacombs nor the sculptures on Christian tombs pictured a human figure on the cross. Everywhere a lamb was shown as the Christian symbol–a lamb carrying a cross, a lamb at the foot of a cross, a lamb on a cross. Some figures showed the lamb with a human head, shoulders and arms, holding a cross in his hands–the lamb of God in process of assuming the human form–the crucifixion myth becoming realistic. At the close of the eighth century, Pope Hadrian I, confirming the decree of the sixth Synod of Constantinople, commanded that thereafter the figure of a man should take the place of a lamb on the cross. It took Christianity eight hundred years to develop the symbol of its suffering Savior. For eight hundred years, the Christ on the cross was a lamb. But if Christ was actually crucified, why was his place on the cross so long usurped by a lamb? In the light of history and reason, and in view of a lamb on the cross, why should we believe in the Crucifixion?
Prove it? – haha. So now Christians don’t exist to you? Does that make them easier to attack for you? Also, the existence of God has not been challenged by science in the least.
Answer: If the existence of God has not been challenged by science why do Bible believers claim not to believe in evolution? Despite the lies of creationists Darwinian evolution by natural selection has indeed completely eliminated any possibility that the God of the Bible could exist. We know a lot about star formation too. So we know how our sun was formed over millions of years again refuting the Bible.
You still haven’t explained where spacetime comes from or anything.
Answer: Can you explain where God comes from? Why does God exist?
Why would I worry with proof outside the Bible? Bernie, destroy all the evidence you and everyone has of your own birth – and then prove to me that you were ever born. Do it, now.
Answer: What proof do you have that anything in the Bible is true then? Because someone told you it was?
John: #100. You are so right! He never sees the positive’s only the negatives.
TPWDE: ” Every one of you is experiencing a stupefying combination of rage and panic.”
That’s funny I don’t feel a tinge of rage or panic. I have the Peace of God that passes understanding. One wonders if you ever experience any peace at all in your life. You are the one with the rage!
Bernie, you must be ignorant of the Old Testament to think that representing Christ as a lamb sent to sacrificial slaughter means a crucifixion didn’t actually happen.
And although the crucifix wasn’t used until the 5th century, the cross was a symbol of Christianity from very early, at least the early 2nd century if not earlier.
Hello – We have seen and heard enough. Combine that with the complaints we’re getting leaves us no alternative but to ban Bernie from the site. Perhaps we’re creating a slight breach in the rule book by doing so, but we believe its in the best interest here.
Thank you,
Moderator
Soooooooorrrrry Bernie. Goodbyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyye……………..[..pffft...].