Let Him Stay Or Throw Him Out?
He’s guilty of possessing child pornography and he’s looking at prison time. He’s lost his six figure job and his home and his life in ruins.
His name is David Chatham and not long after federal authorities showed up at his front door to arrest him, he met with his pastor at Providence Baptist Church in Raleigh, NC. At that meeting he repented and gave his life to Christ.
So how should the church respond to him? In many American churches today we’re guilty of “shooting our wounded”.
How would you react if David sat down in the pew next to you and your children Sunday morning, or asked to be a part of your home group? How did David’s church respond? His story today with guest host Steve Noble, Christian activist and national radio talk show host.
Steve is founder and chairman of Called 2 Action, a grassroots organization making waves and upsetting liberals since 2004. He’s also host of the radio program “Called 2 Action This Week” .
FOR TODAY’S SHOW PLEASE CALL 1-877-44-TRUTH.
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82 Comments on “Let Him Stay Or Throw Him Out?”
David is a brother in Christ!!! Most definitely – Let Him Stay!! I would rather err on the side of mercy than on the side of judgement. We’re in a new covenant with God. How can we seek mercy from our Father if we’re not able/willing to demonstrate it.
David, you always have someone praying for you in Greenville, SC. I have been a religious volunteer at the prison for the last few years. I can tell you – this will make a fisherman out of you! You have been not only called, but chosen for this duty. Our Lord will do it all!!! Share how Jesus has helped you. I would love to send you or any other listeners of TruthTalkLive.com a tract that I put together a few years back. Visit: http://www.LighthousePrayerLine.org & request via email.
God bless you, brother!! Mark Seay
Steve Noble here…Thank You Mark for that incredible encouragement!!! I hope today’s show was a wake-up call to my fellow brothers & sisters in Christ that we need to MINISTER to the hurting…the weak…the sinner! Too often we look down our nose at people who are “less holy” than we are. GIVE ME A BREAK! Let’s not concentrate so much on what the sins are, but who we are sinning against! I’m proud of David and his wife and PRAISE THE LORD for how He is already using them for His glory and their sanctification.
If someone has truly repented then they should receive the same mercy from brothers and sisters that they have received from God. Have we not all had to repent of sin (sin has no grades) and wanted mercy?
Certainly he will need help and support as he begins his new life in Christ. Nobody becomes perfect when they come to Christ, we have to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour. We all probably still have a weakness for something in our lives, and we have to fight it with the power Christ gives us. None of us deserve to be forgiven, but Christ made it possible by His shed blood on the cross. And He shed His blood for David, and if he has truly repented then he is forgiven in the eyes of God his Father.
David Chatham here. I am so grateful for all the words of forgiveness and support. It is so much more than I deserve. As Steve mentioned on the air, I did want to pass along some resources for people seeking recovery and salvation from pornography addiction and other sexual impurities. I pray that you will find the same Grace and Hope that I have found through Him. You can also email me at dachatham@gmail.com. Resources: My blog – http://www.shame2grace.blogspot.com. Celebrate Recovery – http://www.celebraterecovery.com, Ricky Mill at Providence Baptist in Raleigh, he leads a sexual purity support group at the church – ricky@pray.org, Sex Addicts Anonymous – http://saa-recovery.org,
There is a broader list on my blog. God bless and best wishes. David
David: Just as Paul was called and chosen, as King David, as Moses and others we know so well were used by God, so also can you be used mightily in the area you once were enslaved, reaching those who still struggle with sin. And how many more men (or women), maybe brothers and sisters in the Church, are still enslaved in some sexual sin and yet have apparently hidden it from all those who know them.
None of us are so holy we can point the finger, but we need to love one another as Christ loved us, even when we were dead in our sin.
May you be empowered to reach those in the darkness of despair and ravaged by temptation they feel too great to resist. May God break the power of the devil in those lives who truly seek to be free.
David again, I wanted to engage the Truth Talk Live audience to help with some research on the subject of pornography addiction and pornography use. I know this is a sensitive subject, but the more light we shine on the issue the better chance we have of reducing the damage it causes. Your help would be greatly appreciated. God bless. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=sy_2bhGHFLzf4O4yNLLQhuZg_3d_3d
David,
I listened to the show yesterday. It’s rare when Steve Noble does an interesting show. Most of his shows are like listening to paint dry. I don’t think possessing child porn should be a crime. It would be shame for you to do jail time for this supposed offense. This is a case of the “brain police” as Frank Zappa called them punishing people for their thoughts. That is the business of religion, not society. People who make and distribute child porn should be punished of course and severely.
Repenting and giving your life to Christ may induce a temporary guilt trip and keep you away from porn for a short while but it most likely won’t help you at all in the long term. On Chuck Crismier’s radio show there often runs an ad that says: According to figures from the Southern Baptist association 50 percent of all applicants wishing to be trained as missionaries are turned down. Why? 70 percent of evangelical Christian men and 37 percent of evangelical Christian women currently struggle with porn addiction.
As you can see Jesus isn’t the answer to porn addiction. Jesus isn’t the answer to anything. Jesus is an imaginary superhero for frightened uneducated people. There isn’t a shred of evidence that this person even ever existed. You should have studied the history of this religion, studied the Bible and read what the critics say before you blindly accepted a pile of absurd religious dogma and nonsense from other people.
When a Christian wife walks around in baggy jeans, flat shoes, no makeup and a big “Mom” sweatshirt she’s just encouraging her husband to look elsewhere for sexual gratification. It’s the same thing with husbands who don’t exercise and walk around with skinny arms and a big belly. People need to try to be attractive to their mates and a little freaky now and then to spice up the love life. If you are enjoying intimacy with your spouse it’s not as likely you’ll turn to porn.
Good luck.
David: Whatever the last poster (#7) says……..don’t take any notice. He is our resident atheist who wants to turn people away from Christ and ridicule everyone that believes in Him. He neither believes in Christ or the Bible and says that God doesn’t exist. He boasts that he has turned atleast 100 people away from being Christians but nearly everything he says can be taken with a pinch of salt. I have ceased even reading his posts, I don’t believe he should even be on here.
Keep the good work up! Never give up, never give in, Jesus is the best thing that has ever happened to you………I know, because I have felt the forgiveness and love of God in my life too. He is Amazing!
TruthTalk: Do you honestly think that #7 poster, should be allowed to continue to post his irreligious nonsense on here any more? I don’t. There is absolutely no value in anything he says.
Look I didn’t say David shouldn’t fellowship with the Christians who have taken them into their church. Those people can be a great source of encouragement to him. Some may be able to share their personal experiences and struggles with him. This guy needs all the help he can get. He doesn’t need artificial support though. I gave him some facts to consider. I’m trying to encourage this guy in my own way. I illustrated with cold hard facts and figures how believing in Christian dogma doesn’t help with porn addiction. One needs to rely on their own self-discipline and Christianity teaches people expressly NOT to rely on themselves. This is one of the more destructive teachings of Christianity and people need to be warned about its consequences.
Bernie: “When a Christian wife walks around in baggy jeans, flat shoes, no makeup and a big “Mom” sweatshirt she’s just encouraging her husband to look elsewhere for sexual gratification. It’s the same thing with husbands who don’t exercise and walk around with skinny arms and a big belly. People need to try to be attractive to their mates and a little freaky now and then to spice up the love life. If you are enjoying intimacy with your spouse it’s not as likely you’ll turn to porn.”
What a load of tripe. That is such shallow thinking. As if men addicted to porn would stop if they just had a porn star for a wife. That’s like saying if people addicted to drugs just had more interesting personal lives they wouldn’t do drugs. People don’t turn to porn to satisfy natural sexual desires, they turn to porn to satisfy UNNATURAL EXCESSIVE sexual desires. Particularly child pornography.
Kash,
Interesting post as usual. Thanks for acknowledging my shallowness. The use and abuse of porn is so widespread and pervasive that it cannot be attributed to any one cause. Sure some of it is perverts wanting to view perverted sex. But it is also true that many married people find mainstream porn more accessible or desirable than their spouses. Since there are different reasons people get involved with porn there is no one cure for all porn addiction. Of course I don’t think religion helps at all and I gave the figures to prove it.
The cure for all addiction is self-discipline. There’s nothing wrong with marijuana, alcohol, porn, gambling or other many other potentially self-destructive behaviors. Of course I think people are stupid if they do these things but I believe in the right to be stupid. All of these things can be enjoyed as long as a person realizes the consequences of over indulgence and has the self-discipline not to. These things are NOT the problem. A lack of self-discipline is the problem. Again Christianity teaches against self-reliance and that is a very destructive teaching.
Bernie, for many, including myself, Christianity helps us with self-discipline. Of course, this is not always the rule, but for a true disciple of Christ, discipline will be a hallmark of their walk.
Sadly, Bernie has succeeded in his attempt to take the focus off the issue and has everyone defending Christianity and Christ. God bless.
David
Bernie: “I illustrated with cold hard facts and figures how believing in Christian dogma doesn’t help with porn addiction. One needs to rely on their own self-discipline and Christianity teaches people expressly NOT to rely on themselves.”
Bernie has now blown every successful program of dealing with addiction right out of the water. AA members depend on each other to control their addiction to alcohol. While I do not rely on AA, I do rely on my brothers in Christ to keep me from drinking. Yes sir, I called out to God while attached to the “ceramic wheel.” I have had one relapse in 16 years and it was my brothers that brought me back. It is true, “I can do all things with Christ who strengthens me.” My wife and kids were also a great source of strength as was my mother and sisters.
Do you know what you call an addict that tries to beat the addiction on his / her own? Sick. Very few if any can beat an addiction without help. Christians have the advantage that they can call on the Church without fearing condemnation as one would with the public in general. Christians are called not to judge in a self-righteous way. We acknowledge our own sin to God and realize that each of us is fallen and is nowhere near the glory of God. Christ and His church can be a real source of strength for anyone struggling with addiction.
David’s success in beating this addiction will be determined by the people he surrounds himself with and the honesty with which he accepts the fact that at anytime he can revert back to that sin. His computer should limit his access to any sites that may contain porn. He should never be alone with any children, including family members, and he should have someone to report to on a regular basis as to his refraining from accessing porn. I regularly tell my brothers in Sunday school of any problems I may have with thoughts regarding alcohol.
Boris the Awesome Atheist is obviously so lacking in his personal life that he has to find some kind of meaning in attacking believers. I will talk to Stu and seek to have him banned. His pseudo-intellectual dribble grows tiresome in a hurry! The only thing he is helpful with is being a walking example of the Book of Romans. Did you catch Boris talking about “self-control”??? Watch his self-control come into play after he reads this post. Boris’ anger and resentment always get the best of him…I’ll hold my breath until he posts again because its safe to do so
Steve,
Wow Steve. Long time listener and supporter of your sponsors Steve. That’s how I know most of your shows are boring and when they are I go back to ESPN or whatever. But I’m an unbeliever so naturally I’m not interested in most of the subjects you talk about. Most of Larry King’s shows are boring too. But I tune in to see what the subject is and who the guest is because sometimes it’s interesting. Same with your show.
I’m not Boris nor am I an atheist although I may be awesome. You’re not the first person who has said that on this blog but I’ve been accused of being Fred, Barney, Boris, Dudley and a few other cartoon characters and an atheist here too. So this is nothing new. I visited your blog today Steve and posted a comment. I notice Boris the Awesome Atheist is a frequent poster on your blog. Let me get this straight. You think I’m Boris and so you want to ban me from the Truth Talk Live blog but yet Boris has not been banned from your blog. What’s up with that? Boris’ posts don’t seem to be angry, full of resentment or contain intellectual dribble either which is I guess the reason you haven’t found cause to run him yet. Or is it that he’s one of about only three or four bloggers total including you who post on your blog and banning anyone would drastically cut the activity on C2A This Week? If you really think I am Boris block me from posting on your blog. I bet we still read another post from Mr. Badenoff after you do.
I’m a regular tuner in to Stu’s show too. Plus I’m one of the only people who ever says anything nice about him on this blog. He has no reason to ban me. Perhaps he will anyway. Who cares? Maybe I’ll just post on your blog.
Kash,
I know. I don’t think Jesus is your superhero nor do I think you are frightened or uneducated. I am talking about religious fundamentalists. The same people who trouble you.
Bernie, I am troubled by the world but not frightened, because Jesus IS my superhero, so to speak. Just not in a Spiderman sort of way. (Besides, have you noticed that superheroes are always flawed in some way? Because they are human creations….unlike Jesus. Although, when people start to think of Jesus like a comic book hero, theological flaws result…) What troubles me about YOU, Bernie, is your self righteous anger. As I have said before, it is simply the other side of the coin to the self righteousness of religious “fundamentalists”. It results in one group of people judging and looking down upon another group as somehow being less worthy. That always troubles me, because it is a short jump from “less worthy” to “not worthy of life”.
Most of us who post here have strong opinions, one way or the other, which is why we take the time to post. But we would all do well to remember Ephesians 4:29-32 “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”
If we could all remember that when we post, we can make our points without being so rancorous. (And I apply that to myself as well, since I have been guilty of “mouthing off” in anger myself)
Bernie, I grew up in a family of 5 kids. I had 3 older siblings that were cruel and very cutting all the time and parents that were aloof. I learned at a young age to hate people. I wouldn’t give anyone the time of day. I couldn’t like or love anyone. I got married at 19 to get out of my house and that lasted about 8 months before the guy punched me in the face for not getting in the car to drive home because he was too drunk. I got married again at 25 to a cocaine addict and after having 2 children and not able to provide the basic necessities because all of the money was going to his addiction I left. I still hated people. I did decide that it was my responsibility to take care of and love my kids. It was foreign to me but at all costs I was going to be attentive and a good provider. One day I found a tiny little bible that someone had left at a college campus. I started to read it. This God that I read about seemed to care so much for these Jewish people that it baffled my mind. I asked Him to show me what He was like and help me to take care of these kids that I had. I was raising them on my own and couldn’t find a job, had a car that ate oil as much as it did gas, and was stuck in a trailer that my husband decided we could afford because it was cheap and in the middle of a tobacco field. I can’t explain how but within a couple of days while driving I saw a for rent sign while on my way to the store and I had one of the strongest urges I’ve ever felt to go and ask about the place. It was $265 a month and the owner said he would help me get on my feet so that I could pay the rent. I ended up getting help from the state and started going to college. They gave me a job in the chemistry lab cleaning and mixing chemicals which paid for my rent. From that point on things started to happen when I asked God to help me. He knew my heart towards people and worked on me – I don’t know how – but eventually I started to feel compassion for others. There is absolutely nothing that can explain my change of heart. I never wanted to change. I still had very mean people all around me. I was extremely quiet all the time. To speak to me now, you would never know that I was the way that I was. I have a love for others – I constantly pray for my family, who still are cutting and mean. Even my children see the way they are and are amazed that I even speak to them. I can honestly say that despite anything that they do, I love them and want them to be in heaven with me for eternity. Where does that come from? It’s not me!! I didn’t care whether any of them ended up in a ditch before. Why does my heart go out to them? You can spout all your excuses, you can cleverly argue, but you can’t change the fact that when you sincerely want to see God and know if He is real, He will show you in ways you could never imagine. When He says in the bible that he will take your heart of stone and make it flesh, He will whether you want Him to or not. He will make you a new creation. Oh, friend – I wish you could simply seek to really try to understand the bible and ask God to show Himself to you. All I did was say that if You’re real – then do something! I didn’t know what I expected to happen. He’s been so close ever since that I could cry at the love He shows me. He changed me so drastically that I don’t recognize me. I truly love my God. He’s even taught me to love people – all people. Explain that! I can’t!
This God that I read about seemed to care so much for these Jewish people that it baffled my mind.
Answer: Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the Jewish people made all these stories up about how they were the chosen people. I did and I do.
That still doesn’t explain the change in me. If He doesn’t exist, what would cause me to be a different person. I was ok with the way I was. I was safe not caring about anyone. When you start to care about people you get hurt sometimes. I’m ok with that and don’t withdraw like I used to. When you really look at the bible how in the world could that stuff be made up from so many different time periods with the same basic theme throughout and glimpses into what is going on today and be right on? There is just too much supernatural about it. I spent years analyzing and kept becoming more convinced that it’s the inspired word of God given to us for our benefit – not for rules and regulations to keep us controlled. I’m more free than I have ever been because I’m not weighed down by life’s issues.
Irene,
That still doesn’t explain the change in me. If He doesn’t exist, what would cause me to be a different person.
Answer: If Allah or Krishna does not exist how do they cause Muslims and Hindus to become a different people? How can you expect me to accept your religious claims when you would not accept those very same claims from members of other religions?
There’s a more important point that needs to be made here. For every conversion story like yours there’s at least a thousand de-conversion stories in which people explain that rejecting their Christian faith made them a happier and more caring, un-frightened person. How can I ignore one side of the story? These de-conversion stories are much more convincing than any conversion story I’ve ever heard. In other words there are just too many happy ex-Christians out there for me to give your story much credence.
I was ok with the way I was. I was safe not caring about anyone. When you start to care about people you get hurt sometimes.
Answer: So? I’d rather feel some mental pain than nothing at all. At least you know you’re alive. Life is about taking chances and risks and that’s the only way to receive life’s rewards. You gotta play to win.
I’m ok with that and don’t withdraw like I used to. When you really look at the bible how in the world could that stuff be made up from so many different time periods with the same basic theme throughout and glimpses into what is going on today and be right on?
Answer: How could it NOT be made up? None of the events or major figures described in the Bible are described ANYWHERE else. For example why don’t the Egyptians have any record of the Israelites ever being in Egypt let alone any reference to every firstborn child and animal dying in Egypt all on one night? Why is there no evidence that the Israelites ever conquered anything let all of Palestine? If David and Solomon were so well known throughout the ancient Near East why is it that we have no inscriptions or literature from other cultures that mention even one word about either of them? If this great temple was actually built somewhere, where the heck is it?
There is just too much supernatural about it.
Answer: Exactly, way too much. The Bible mentions angels, Satan, demons, seraphs, giants, dragons, unicorns – a bunch of absurd beings that no one has ever seen or provided even a tiny shred of evidence for their existence. There is no such thing as a historical document or narrative that records supernatural occurrences or beings. Supernatural mysticism is the stuff of fiction. No exceptions.
I spent years analyzing and kept becoming more convinced that it’s the inspired word of God given to us for our benefit – not for rules and regulations to keep us controlled.
Answer: Really analyzing the Bible would entail at least becoming fairly familiar with at least one of the original languages the Bible is written in. Really analyzing the Bible would have meant comparing it to other literature in style and form. Had you done this you would have realized that the dialog in the Bible proves that the narratives in it are definitely not historical or even close. There have never been historical documents written containing stories with people speaking in complete sentences. People don’t talk like that in real life and there was no way to record conversations 2000 years ago anyway.
I’m more free than I have ever been because I’m not weighed down by life’s issues.
Answer: Freedom in religion can be compared to being say free of fleas. You’re not free at all. If you want to prove something is true then you should try to disprove it to see if it is. You haven’t done that with your religion. I suggest you read what critics of the Bible and Christianity have to say. If you are free as you claim then you should have no problem doing this. I say you won’t because you aren’t free. You don’t want to be free to think for yourself. You don’t trust yourself. Freedom frightens you.
and glimpses into what is going on today and be right on?
Had you studied the history of Christianity then you would see that every generation of Christians has said the exact same thing about the events of their days. Every generation was just as sure as this one that Jesus would be coming during their lifetimes. If the Bible were really the Word of God, why would God knowingly cause all these false beliefs in every generation of Christians for the last 2000 years? Name something going on today that you think the Bible predicts and I’ll demonstrate just how wrongheaded that is.
Your analogies have many flaws and I won’t go into all of them but I can draw your attention to one thing you should have remembered if you keep up with the news. “None of the events or major figures described in the Bible are described ANYWHERE else. For example why don’t the Egyptians have any record of the Israelites ever being in Egypt let alone any reference to every firstborn child and animal dying in Egypt all on one night?”
Don’t you remember recently that Egypt was looking at suing the Israelis because of the mass exodus and the plunder that was taken from them when this event occurred? It couldn’t have been more than a year ago that it made the news.
I find your arguments to be incorrect as everything in the Bible has been looked at by archaeologists and there have been some amazing discoveries based on what is written in it.
I don’t want to argue with you friend. I was hoping to shed some of the light that I have to you. If you don’t agree or it sounds foolish to you, then that is your view. I pray that my God will bless you abundantly today and be gracious to you beyond what you can imagine if you would like Him to.
Irene Abbot
>Don’t you remember recently that Egypt was looking at suing the Israelis because of the mass exodus and the plunder that was taken from them when this event occurred? It couldn’t have been more than a year ago that it made the news.
Answer: It was six years ago, not last year and it was not the nation of Egypt itself suing Israel. It wasn’t even people living in Egypt. The August 9, 2003 edition of the Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram Al-Arabi featured an interview with the Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Al-Zaqaziq, Dr. Nabil Hilmi, who, together with a group of Egyptian expatriates in Switzerland, was preparing an enormous lawsuit against “all the Jews of the world.” The following is an excerpt from the interview:
Dr. Hilmi: “… Since the Jews make various demands of the Arabs and the world, and claim rights that they base on historical and religious sources, a group of Egyptians in Switzerland has opened the case of the so-called ‘great exodus of the Jews from Pharaonic Egypt.’ At that time, they stole from the Pharaonic Egyptians gold, jewelry, cooking utensils, silver ornaments, clothing, and more, leaving Egypt in the middle of the night with all this wealth, which today is priceless.”
Clearly this goofy suit wasn’t over any evidence that the Egyptians had about Exodus events themselves and they stated that very plainly. They did not pretend to have any evidence of their own. It was a suit that mocks the absurdity of Jewish claims that land in Palestine somehow belongs to them because of divine command. Of course nothing ever came of this frivolous lawsuit. The fact that you would point to something like this as evidence for the Exodus story illustrates just how weak and poorly thought out Christian apologetic arguments really are.
I find your arguments to be incorrect as everything in the Bible has been looked at by archaeologists and there have been some amazing discoveries based on what is written in it.
Answer: Really? When did archaeologists discover heaven or hell or prove angels or Satan were real beings? The Bible makes a bunch of ridiculous claims that no one is ever going to prove.
“Sometimes you will hear Christians tell you that archaeological evidence proves the Bible is true. Have a think about this though – archaeology cannot prove that a particular story in the Bible is true: suppose that archaeological evidence was found that a particular battle occurred, e.g. the remains of a city are discovered exactly where the Bible says the battle took place. This only proves that a battle took place, it does NOT prove that Yahweh smote the unbelieving heathens from heaven.
However, if you turn it around, it is possible for archaeological evidence to prove that the Bible is untrue. For example, if the Bible says that a battle took place at a particular time and place, and archaeological evidence shows that this cannot have happened, it proves that the Bible is in error.
This kind of evidence would be even more compelling if it were discovered by a Christian. Well, this actually happened – take a look at Joshua 8:26-28:
For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. Only the cattle and the spoil of that city Israel took for a prey unto themselves, according unto the word of the LORD which he commanded Joshua. And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day.
Joseph Callaway, professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, excavated the ruins of Ai between 1964 and 1976 and afterwards reported that what he found there contradicted the Bible version completely:
The evidence from Ai was mainly negative. There was a great walled city there beginning about 3000 B. C., more than 1,800 years before Israel’s emergence in Canaan. But this city was destroyed about 2400 B. C., after which the site was abandoned. Despite extensive excavation, no evidence of a Late Bronze Age (1500-1200 B. C.) Canaanite city was found. In short, there was no Canaanite city here for Joshua to conquer (Biblical Archaeology Review, “Joseph A. Callaway: 1920-1988,” November/December 1988, p. 24, emphasis mine).
There is also no archaeological evidence that the Exodus from Egypt ever happened. Numbers chapter 1 gives an idea of the huge number of Israelites that apparently wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. However, the Israeli archaeologist Eliezer Oren spent 10 years excavating the site, and “failed to provide a single shred of evidence that the Biblical account of the Exodus from Egypt ever happened” (Barry Brown, “Israeli Archaeologist Reports No Evidence to Back Exodus Story,” News Toronto Bureau, Feb. 27, 1988).
Millions of people camped in the desert for decades would have left a huge footprint, but not a single piece of evidence has been found.” -http://fuzzyquark.comxa.com/christian_index.html
I don’t want to argue with you friend. I was hoping to shed some of the light that I have to you. If you don’t agree or it sounds foolish to you, then that is your view. I pray that my God will bless you abundantly today and be gracious to you beyond what you can imagine if you would like Him to.
Answer: Thank you for the kind thoughts. I already demonstrated how it is a belief in a God, any God or gods that occasionally changes people’s lives. God doesn’t have to be real, you just have to believe God is real and you will act accordingly. Sometimes anyway. My point is that I don’t think the Bible is a good basis on which to believe in God. “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived” – Isaac Asimov (1920-1992).
I listen to an apologist in Atlanta GA at times, Ravi Zacharias – he mentioned something about Isaac Asimov in one of his teachings. Take care friend.
Bernie post 23,
“Supernatural mysticism is the stuff of fiction. No exceptions.”
Did the aliens who abducted and took advantage of you sexually tell you this[you know, you never did give any of us the juicy details on this event. I don't know about the others, but I want to hear about weird alien sex....and what methods they used to catch/subdue you.Or did you go willingly?]?
The easiest way I can describe it is like this,….if you believe in the Supernatural, it will take notice of you. Your very lack of belief in such things has, ironically “inoculated”[in a sense]you against any chances of personally experiencing the Supernatural. But if by chance you ever DO have an experience with the Supernatural, once it touches you, it will never let you go. And nor will you want it to. There seems to be a whole Universe of weirdness that cannot be accounted for simply with science as we know it.
John,
My point is that there are no supernatural miracles recorded in anything that could be considered a historical document. The Bible is no exception to this rule.
I don’t know what my illegitimate space child Ragnad has to do with this. You know I thought the abduction was a dream until I get a knock on the door about 9 years later and when I open it there’s a three-foot tall kid with a huge green head standing there and it isn’t Halloween. So I don’t recall much about the abduction. Ragnad has tried to entice me to visit his home planet with him and I think they can read our thoughts somehow because the kid told me that on his planet Zovirax or whatever it’s called there are rivers of vodka and vodka lakes and giant onion dip pits.
The problem with your argument is that one has to believe in the supernatural BEFORE experiencing it. This just makes a person more likely to attribute the unexplained to the supernatural. A more logical approach is that there are naturalistic explanations for everything since no supernatural occurrences have ever been scientifically verified. Why believe in the supernatural when there isn’t any evidence for it? Also supernatural is just another word for magic, and magic is fake. No exceptions here either.
Bernie post 29,
So……………no alien sex details, huh[...siiiiigh...pout, pout.].
Please define for us your definition of a “historical document” Bernie.
I may be wrong, but I am getting the distinct impression that you may think that supernatural miracles are something that only occurred in the ancient past. You and I may also have two different ideas on what constitutes a “supernatural miracles”. It’s also tricky trying to provide you with any kind of evidences for this sort of a thing because I don’t think that you see very much value in personal testimonies.
“The problem with your argument is that one has to believe in the supernatural BEFORE experiencing it.”
Not……necessarily, Bernie. Remember that I also said “The easiest way I can describe it is..” and “…”inoculated”[in a sense]…”.
One doesn’t HAAAAAAAAAAVE to believe in it, at least not all of it, it just seems to really, really help in many ways.
“This just makes a person more likely to attribute the unexplained to the supernatural.”
Well, that depends on what kind of an unexplained thing is being experienced by the person. I’m not talking about primitive man’s opinions on a Lunar Eclipse/Phases of the Moon, things that can be easily explained by simple science and observation[as you should know, men knew of the cause of these things since before the Middle Ages, and you KNOW how primitive science was back THEN.], but weirder stuff.As we both know, there are not very many things that can fall into the realm of the “unexplained” these days, so it would have to be something really special. I could provide you with some examples if you like, if it matters.
“A more logical approach is..”
Ahhhh….”logic”. I, and I suspect a good many others do not live in a logical world filled with logical people and occurrences.Logic is a man-made construct, and as such is subject to some small margin of flexibility, personal interpretation, and error. It’s great when it works, and it works pretty darn good on a good many situations, but I don’t think it can be applied to EVERYTHING in the universe Bernie.
“Why believe in the supernatural when there isn’t any evidence for it?”
Personal testimonies aside,I believe that there is Bernie. As I said, I could provide you with some examples if you wish. It could be our little game, I provide an example and then you provide the scientific debunking of said example[smile]. I’m not like the Christians here that will try to convince you of the spirit world/Divinity/etc.etc. for your own good and then perhaps get upset if you continue to disagree. I really just don’t care whether or not you believe in this sort of a thing[after all, it won't effect MEEEEE in any way]. I just know that it works for me in my life, and that, if you wanted such a thing in your life, that maybe, you MIGHT discover something new that you found interesting or helpful enough to have as a part of your life.
“Also supernatural is just another word for magic[ehhhhhhh......not quite, technically.], and magic is fake. No exceptions here either.”
Says a man to a Pagan Witch[Grin].
My apologies for straying off topic in my two former posts, Moderator.
I wondered why my faith is so strong and that unbelievers don’t get it then I thought back to all of the prophetic dreams I’ve had. How in the world can a person have dreams about events before they happen in a way that’s a warning to them? I can’t expect anyone else to believe me nor can I disregard them as dinner a few hours before. God is watching out for me, and He makes sure to let me know if either I’m heading in the wrong direction or that someone is looking to harm me.
Bernie, I’m praying for you. Brothers and sisters in Christ , I encourage everyone to pray for Bernie and others – that they will experience the amazing life that comes from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. In Christ, B Heb 11:1
God is watching out for me, and He makes sure to let me know if either I’m heading in the wrong direction or that someone is looking to harm me.
Answer: Irene,
How supremely arrogant of you. God is watching out for you but he’s letting thousands of innocent children suffer and die of starvation because apparently God isn’t watching out for them. Why don’t you ask your God to take a few days off and help somebody else for a change? Somebody who really NEEDS the help. Perhaps you can pray and have God look out for a few amputees and heal them with new legs. Is this miracle too great for your God to perform? I suppose it might be for a God who is easily defeated by chariots of iron.
Brad C.
If you look at what it involves, this “relationship” with God / Jesus Christ is indeed an odd one. In this relationship, a Christian is supposed to obey God and love him as Father. He/she does NOT have the freedom to disagree and hold opinions contrary to Bible teaching. This means that he/she cannot say to God or even to the Church “I love you God. But I don’t agree with what you said in the Bible here so and so……” To do so would mean he/she was not a true Christian, and the church would not accept such an opinion too. Instead, the person wishing to disagree with God or parts of the Bible in ANY issue would be encouraged or lectured to submit and acknowledge that God’s opinions/ways are perfect, righteous, and therefore there is no disagreeing with it, and to do so is morally wrong.
To have a true relationship with God, a Christian must ideally agree and obey with him and everything in the Bible 100 percent! This means that you are not allowed the freedom to have your own opinions that aren’t in line with the Bible or to think for yourself! What kind of a relationship is that? Would you want a relationship or even friendship with someone that required you to obey and agree with everything they said? In our society, we consider that to be an unhealthy relationship. In fact, that is more like a master/servant or dictator/pawn type of relationship. And it’s one where you cannot even both respectfully disagree. Is that what you would call a great relationship? Hmmmmmm
Goodness Bernie, our (mine and other Christians) job is to look out for the “thousands” of suffering children and all others who are hurting. It’s our command as followers of Jesus to love others – and that requires us to care for people everywhere. If we did what we are commanded to do, there wouldn’t be as much suffering and those that were could be comforted. If all of us did what we are told in the Bible, how awesome would this world be? Hunger would be gone, needs would be met, and we would all love each other through tough times. As far as people with disabilities go, what makes you think that they wouldn’t be more effective in this world without their disabilities? Maybe if these people were not disabled they wouldn’t have the opportunities that God places in their paths because of their differences.
It’s seems to me that you would not be comfortable spending eternity with the very Creator who gave you the breath you have, so why would He soften your heart towards Him or reveal His plan to you for eternal life when you would not want it? We all make our own choices, yours is clear. Mine is clear. I wish you well.
Bernie: YOU are the one who is arrogant on this site…..pure arrogance personified! YOU are right and everyone who disagrees with you is crazy and stupid. Look in the mirror……really look at yourself…..and see the person you really are instead of the one you THINK you are!
Hi Bernie – still praying for you every day.
Regarding your comments, “To have a true relationship with God, a Christian must ideally agree and obey with him and everything in the Bible 100 percent!’
This means that you are not allowed the freedom to have your own opinions that aren’t in line with the Bible or to think for yourself! What kind of a relationship is that? Would you want a relationship or even friendship with someone that required you to obey and agree with everything they said? In our society, we consider that to be an unhealthy relationship. In fact, that is more like a master/servant or dictator/pawn type of relationship. And it’s one where you cannot even both respectfully disagree. Is that what you would call a great relationship? Hmmmmmm
Answer: God gave me the freedom to choose whether to obey him or not. I choose to obey and am thankful he is my master and I am his servant. II believe it’s not about me, it’s about Him. Before Christ, I thought I had a great life (nice car, beautiful wife, nice house, money in savings, etc. – all the things the ‘world’ says are good). But, I now realize that I was hurting myself and others directly and indirectly. Looking back, my life was a mess. After choosing to obey him and focusing on doing things that would please God, I have so much more freedom and even more ‘material’ things than I did before. However, a difference now is that I realize these ‘things’ belong to God, not me, so I try to use them for bringing God the honor he deserves.
Psalm 34:8
Brad C,
The freedom to obey? Are you kidding? You don’t think that sounds just a little crazy? That is the language of every thoroughly indoctrinated cult member down through the ages. God hasn’t given me any choices because for some reason he has avoided me so far. I wish he would stop by have a beer or whatever and let me know that he (or she) really exists so I would know for sure. But I don’t know and I’m not even sure if this is the only universe there is. The thing is though I always get the same “My life was a mess before I converted” story from Christians that I got from you. I can’t buy it because too many ex-Christians are around telling the same story. Except their story goes on to say that eventually their life became a psychological disaster when they realized religious superstitions were not only not the answer to their problems after all but brought new and worse problems of their own. I don’t think your story is over yet.
Brad: One wonders if people like Bernie obey the laws of the land?
What kind of religious dementia would cause a person to wonder something so stupid? Why wouldn’t I obey the laws of the land? I vote for the people who write, pass and enforce these laws. Should I then go out and break them so I can set a bad example for my children and wind up in jail? Jails are full of Christians. I don’t want to go there. How stupid does a person have to be to wonder why non-Christians obey the laws of the land?
Why don’t you have a job mherman? Why do you sit there on the government dole all day and mooch off of society instead of doing something productive? Could it be that you are not qualified to work anywhere because of your lack of education?
So too we obey Christ’s laws because we want to and because it gives us peace of mind and heart…..because He loves us.
PS: I am retired, and have a state pension, if that has anything to do with you!
Hi Bernie. Prayers still comin’ your way. My ’story’ is definitely not over yet and I am looking forward to what God has in store for me (whether one might consider it good or bad). The ‘relationship’ I have with Christ is so awesome that I hope you will allow yourself the opportunity to experience the same.
I have no doubt that I will remain a Christ-follower, given my understanding of what Christ has done for me. Otherwise, I would be selfish.
I don’t quite follow your statements about needing personal proof that God really exists. How do you know that anything that happened 150 years ago really happened (since you weren’t here)? I personally believe it’s easy to believe in God/our Creator even though we don’t physically see him (after all God is in us through the holy Spirit John 4:24). If you found a watch in the woods, with all of it’s intricate parts, would you believe that all those parts came together by themselves to form a watch? Or, would you believe someone left it or put it there and the watch was created by someone, like a watchmaker? I believe it would be a watchmaker. And, just as I believe in a watch maker, I believe there is a Lifemaker. Have a good weekend .
Hi Bernie. Prayers still comin’ your way.
Answer: Christians have been praying in droves that I’d convert for decades now. Obviously either prayer doesn’t really work or God doesn’t want me to be a Christian.
My ’story’ is definitely not over yet and I am looking forward to what God has in store for me (whether one might consider it good or bad). The ‘relationship’ I have with Christ is so awesome that I hope you will allow yourself the opportunity to experience the same.
Answer: I can’t accept claims about personal experiences of God from members of one religion unless I consider the very same claims from members of other religions. I can’t accept claims from you that you would not accept from members other religions. Understand? What about the Muslims who tell me about all that Allah has done for them and want me to experience the great joy their awesome God gives them?
I have no doubt that I will remain a Christ-follower, given my understanding of what Christ has done for me. Otherwise, I would be selfish.
Answer: If you realize that nothing that has happened to you needs a supernatural explanation you won’t be being selfish when you reject your religion. The stats say that chance increases, as you get older.
I don’t quite follow your statements about needing personal proof that God really exists. How do you know that anything that happened 150 years ago really happened (since you weren’t here)?
Answer: When we have multiple sources of reliable information that confirm each other we can be reasonably certain something occurred. That for example this is how we can be sure macroevolution has definitely occurred despite the loud and angry lies creationist tell to the contrary. But 2000 years ago there was no way to be certain what human events happened even a few years prior. Man did not know how to write history. That’s one way we know the Bible could not possibly be historical.
If you found a watch in the woods, with all of it’s intricate parts, would you believe that all those parts came together by themselves to form a watch? Or, would you believe someone left it or put it there and the watch was created by someone, like a watchmaker? I believe it would be a watchmaker. And, just as I believe in a watch maker, I believe there is a Lifemaker. Have a good weekend .
Answer: “The same argument was made centuries ago by William Paley and pointed out that such a thing is so complex and delicate that it had to have been designed from the top down by a creator. This argument is simply reflective of ignorance of the extraordinary power of evolution’s bottom-up design mechanism. Once you have an understanding of multigenerational mutation and natural selection, and also understand how structures with irreducible complexity evolve, there’s nothing unlikely or implausible about evolution at all. In fact, genetic algorithms (the computer software version of evolution), are starting to take over the world of invention with innovative new engineering advances that top-down designers like human beings might have never come up with. Bottom-up design is not only probable, it’s inevitable and nearly always produces better designs than any intelligent creator could have. – Brain Dunning
I don’t care what you believe. I want you to understand though that there are very good reasons for unbelief, disbelief, atheism, infidelity, agnosticism, call it what you will, and there are a lot of them too. You believers need to understand that. When we tell you why we don’t believe in your God listen and try to understand. So we can all just get along.
TPWDE: ”Obviously either prayer doesn’t really work or God doesn’t want me to be a Christian.”
OR: You are too stubborn and proud to let Him.
If evolution were to have taken place then survival of the fittest would be the order of the day. I don’t get why there are species like sheep who are docile, domesticated, dumb and need to be led. Wouldn’t they be extinct? They’re pretty pathetic on the evolutionary scale.
And another thing that I don’t get is why would we need a male and female to reproduce? Cell division seems to be a better way than having to find the opposite sex and then getting them to oblige.
Why did people concern themselves with others to the point of cities, countries and continents. Seems to me that small groups would have worked better – less to share and more to get. In the animal kingdom you don’t see anything developing a sense of evolving into a more humanistic type of society. Why is that? What made us develop out of the primordial ooze to civilized beings and not the other species? Why aren’t there any other creatures where there are no humans developing into a civilized society? I guess we got lucky for having our DNA tweak itself at just the right moment! Lucky me! And to think I thank a Creator every day, and always will for as long as I walk His earth.
Irene, common sheep, which are basically man-made mutants[which is why they ARE docile domesticated and dumb], are able to survive because they have humans to guide and protect them out in the field…until they decide to slaughter and eat them. If you want to look at sheep from an evolutionary perspective, study up on the various species of wild goats or the Big Horn Sheep of northern America. These wild species from which domesticated sheep and goats are descended from, are strong, hearty, and can be dangerous.
Some lifeforms do not need members of the opposite gender to reproduce. For example the Indo-Pacific Gecko that lives in my part of Florida is a species composed entirely of parthenogenetic females. When they grow to reach a certain age their bodies just start producing viable eggs. There is a huge variation of reproductive abilities in nature.
“In the animal kingdom you don’t see anything developing a sense of evolving into a more humanistic type of society. Why is that?”
Define what you mean as a humanistic society. Remember that as nonhuman lifeforms, their needs, desires, even perspectives on life and the world around them, are going to be vastly different[alien] compared to ours, so this would effect whatever form of “society” that they may create.
Some would argue that we as a species are not that civilized[grim smile]. I guess it depends on what ones ideas are on what it means to be “civilized”.
“Why aren’t there any other creatures were there are no humans developing into a civilized society?”
You mean like, just here on Earth[smile]?
Reread my last paragraph. I have known some people that thought that a pod of Bottle-nosed Dolphins were a better example of a civilized society than many of those created by men.
John, but why wouldn’t all life forms have reproductive abilities that would not require a mate? That would make them more apt to reproduce more effectively. Seems the logical way to evolve. When I asked about the creatures where there are no humans around, I meant something like an island or some remote region. Why haven’t they developed shopping centers, currency, schools… you know, civilized (: as in we’re going to evolve into something a bit more sophisticated than what we’ve been doing for the last 10 billion years. They stay the same. Humans are evolving into a more advanced society. We have something that stops us from animal behaviour. Where did that come from? Why don’t we possess the same instincts as animals? What made us loose our hairy monkey bodies and advance and some of the species keep theirs and stay wild? These questions are too many for me not to believe that we are all unique creations. Each has a purpose and each was created for that purpose. I can’t process the evolution theory no matter how many slants are put on it.
Hello again Irene.
If you do not mind me asking, exactly how old are you? Some of your questions are…curiously put.
I just want to be sure that your not making a joke or something,as it will effect the way I can answer you.
Please answer back as soon as possible.
Please don’t attack her yet Bernie, for all we know Irene might be only 10 years old[grin].
I’ll be back to check up on your reply tomorrow evening Irene.
I get up for work at 4:45a.m. and it’s past my bedtime.
John, but why wouldn’t all life forms have reproductive abilities that would not require a mate? That would make them more apt to reproduce more effectively. Seems the logical way to evolve.
Answer: This is the mistake they made in Stalinist Russia. The scientists rejected evolutionary theory in favor of Lysenkosim, which was predicated on the bizarre notion that nature used logical means and had a guiding intelligence behind it. This inspired misguided attempt at growing wheat on frozen tundra, among many failed experiments and led to the starvation of millions of people. Evolution is Mother Nature and it’s not nice to try to fool Mother Nature. Creationists love to lie and say Stalin killed these people because he was an atheist as if that makes any sense. Neither is true. These people died because their scientists believed in intelligent design and rejected evolutionary theory. Just think if the ID magic hoaxers got their way with science in America. Millions of Americans would starve or die every month of easily curable diseases without evolutionary scientists.
Why haven’t they developed shopping centers, currency, schools… you know, civilized (: as in we’re going to evolve into something a bit more sophisticated than what we’ve been doing for the last 10 billion years. They stay the same.
Answer: Actually they don’t.
Humans are evolving into a more advanced society. We have something that stops us from animal behaviour.
Question: We do? If humans are special creations, why do we share the traits of violence, lust, rage, tribal warfare, homosexuality, etc. with animals?
Where did that come from? Why don’t we possess the same instincts as animals? What made us loose our hairy monkey bodies and advance and some of the species keep theirs and stay wild?
Question: Why does the human chromosome #2 appear to have been created by the fusion of two different chimpanzee chromosomes, complete with structures which would not be necessary if it was created as a single, unified chromosome?
These questions are too many for me not to believe that we are all unique creations. Each has a purpose and each was created for that purpose. I can’t process the evolution theory no matter how many slants are put on it.
Answer: Well, I can’t process the creation theory no matter how many slants are put on it. Can you answer these questions for me Irene or any other creationist?
If all civilizations resulted from Adam and Eve, and oral traditions about the God that created them were passed down from generation to generation, why are there so many other creation stories in the world? Why didn’t all civilizations keep their ‘true’ religion?
If God created all the animals at once why have 99 percent of all the animals that once existed become extinct?
If God created the universe, what created God? And if the answer is “nothing”, why could not the universe have been created ab initio as well?
If cruelty and suffering result from a ‘fallen world’ caused by some original sin of humans, why did your god also punish the animals for it by creating disease, pain and suffering for them too?
Let’s suppose for the sake of argument that *something* created the universe, and that we can call that something “God”. Is there any reason to believe that the God that created the universe has anything to do with the sacred writings of the world’s religions?
Which came first, man or animals? Genesis 1 says animals were created first. but Genesis 2 says the animals were created after man in order to keep him company. (I note in passing that that plan didn’t work out so well, so God finally wised up and created woman). Which is it?
If humans are special creations, why do we share the same biology, metabolic pathways, etc. with chimpanzees? Shouldn’t we have been made completely differently to emphasize the point?
Did God create mosquitos and plasmodium? Parasitic wasps? The Tsetse fly?
How did kangaroos get to Australia without leaving any trace on any other continent? How did the Texas blind salamander get to Texas?
Why did God make the Hawaiian Islands chain in just the right way to make it appear that the earth is billions of years old?
Why is the fossil record arranged in such a way as to suggest evolution?
Why does the evidence from so many scientific disciplines, astronomy, geology, biology, physics, chemistry, all converge to suggest the Big Bang and Evolution, while at the same time pointing away from your theory?
Why can we see objects in space that are billions of light years away?
Can you use your creation model to make any helpful predictions that might lead us to further discoveries or understanding?
Where does the cosmic background radiation come from?
According to Genesis, the reason humans speak many languages is that they tried to build a tower to reach heaven and God “confused their language” in order to foil their plans. Is this story true? If so, why have our space probes not attracted God’s ire, or even his attention? Has heaven moved?
Why are there fish that live in pitch darkness but still have eyes?
Why has there never been a dinosaur fossil found above the K-T boundary? And where did the Iridium come from?
Why has the world, including government funding, science journals, reputable newspapers, education standards, etc., moved on without you, leaving your barbaric bronze-age theories in their dust? Why have we made so much progress in our understanding after abandoning religious methodology for a scientific one?
Why is it only Bible believers who have a problem with evolutionary theory?
Bernie: “In fact, genetic algorithms (the computer software version of evolution), are starting to take over the world of invention with innovative new engineering advances that top-down designers like human beings might have never come up with.” You DO see the inherent contradiction in that statement, don’t you? I mean, a human (more likely several working together) had to come up with and then program the algorithm into the computer. So although it has the potential for helping us explain the mechanisms of evolution more clearly, it does not exactly remove a source of “intelligence” from the process.
Irene: ”Humans are evolving into a more advanced society. ”
Humans aren’t ”evolving”, but I know what you mean.
Human beings are set apart not only because they were created by God but by the structure of their society, which includes economics, education, medical care, government, religious, technological advancements, and the ultimate…..going where no man has gone before…..into space, because humans have this inbuilt curiosity about their world and their Universe……among many other aspects of modern human society.
I’m just a simple person, age 49. All I know is that God gave us rules in the Bible. I’ve found them. They tell you what you need to do to live a great life. I choose to believe in God, that He created the universe just like He said He did. Since I’ve been following His rules, I’ve had many blessings. When I chose not to, things didn’t go well. In fact, they went terribly wrong. I found this little saying once and I use it when I sign emails. It says, “God’s principles are not an arbitrary set of rules by which to govern us; they are a loving Father’s wisdom to those who will listen and trust Him.”
I can’t answer the questions above. I’m not God. Before I became a Christian my life was not going so well at all. Since I found the Bible, started reading it, and following the “rules” as you call them (I would call it advice) things have been going well. In fact, the more I looked into it the more I liked this God that I discovered. The more I liked Him, the more I wanted to learn about how He is. I wondered how we could twist religion into something that turned out to be the Catholic religion (which is what I grew up in) and it doesn’t fit what’s in the Bible at all. In fact, most of what the Catholic church does, the Bible says “don’t do that!)
I find it awesome that I have a book that tells me how to live the right way and is never off the mark. Now before you start telling me about the people that killed each other and committed other offenses – these are people that missed the mark. It shows how God in His ever-loving mercy and grace still had a relationship with them. This shows me that He knows I’m not perfect, and He’s willing to be gracious with me anyway. I need it – I fall short every day. I keep trying though, and He knows that because I’m still blessed. I do still get in trouble when I screw up but it could be a lot worse than what I get. My prayers have a way of being answered when it comes to others being healed, finding jobs, or other things I pray about. You can call it coincidence. I can’t anymore. Too many times things work out in the most uncanny way.
I would hope you see me as a 10 year old. I would love to have the faith of a child. I do ask for that often. I have peace, I love others more than I could have ever imagined. I prayed for a church that I could serve in – it took a couple of years but I ended up living about a mile from my church which is very vocal about serving. It’s a God thing.
You say that you would love for God to sit down and have a beer with you. He says He will be happy to have a relationship with you if you would only let Him. Being on this site tells me that you’re searching. It’s almost like you’re looking for those magic words that will convince you. We all have a God shaped hole in our hearts. Unless He fills yours, you will always long for something that you aren’t even sure what it is. I had that. It’s filled and I’m content.
Irene: Lovely testimony.
”My prayers have a way of being answered when it comes to others being healed, finding jobs, or other things I pray about. You can call it coincidence. I can’t anymore. Too many times things work out in the most uncanny way.”
To be honest, I find prayer difficult because I find the big things in my life that I desperately want to happen don’t, as much as I pour my heart out to the Lord. I was actually thinking about the whole thing about prayer this morning….you know…..if nothing is impossible with God why can’t He save my youngest son? Well, I know He has….by dying for him….but he resists accepting Christ. I have had many good friends…..Christians….who have died recently through cancer and other illnesses. We pray….Oh we pray….and they are gone. MY brother-in-law lived a lot longer than expected with Leukaemia but died at the age of 54. But I must mention one positive, my sister had an aggressive cancer all down her spine and after much prayer and intensive chemo came out with flying colours. I still thank God for that!
He does answer prayer, I know He does, but so many that are important to me still go unanswered.
What is your secret? Maybe my faith isn’t strong enough or something…..I don’t know.
I would love you to pray for my son Mark (35), I so desperately want to see him come to the Lord. Also my sister has drifted away from the truth and has been getting into New Age philosophy’s. I have two nieces also that have drifted. It is such a heartache to see these going away from what they use to believe.
Well, thank you Irene. I pray God will continue to hear and answer your prayers!
I’ve also prayed for things that God didn’t give me or let happen. He says that whatever we ask ‘in His will’ He will be faithful. I still have family that are not Christians and I pray for them all of the time. It doesn’t mean that He won’t honor our prayers, it means that they are not willing. He won’t push Himself on anyone since He is a Gentleman! I do believe that He allows things to happen for His glory. At times a loss of someone we love can bring someone else to the Lord in ways we could have never imagined. I do know that sometimes when I prayed for people they ended up going through trials that eventually led to their coming to the Lord. I’m not surprised anymore when this happens.
Don’t ever measure your faith by the lack of answered prayers. I don’t think any of us has enough faith or we would be moving mountains! When you ask the Lord for more faith, don’t be surprised if He gives you trials to go through so that you learn to rely solely on Him. (I’ve done that!!) I will be praying for Mark, your sister, and nieces. I always remember the words, “trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.” I know He’s not willing that anyone should not accept Him and prayers for others is a very powerful thing. I ask that you don’t give up praying for them either.
Hi Bernie, wow, quite a set of comments… 1) “2000 years ago there was no way to be certain what human events happened even a few years prior. Man did not know how to write history. That’s one way we know the Bible could not possibly be historical.” Answer: that’s a weak argument – couldn’t man speak, and what about the Dead Sea Scrolls?
2. “I don’t care what you believe. I want you to understand though that there are very good reasons for unbelief, disbelief, atheism, infidelity, agnosticism, call it what you will, and there are a lot of them too. You believers need to understand that. When we tell you why we don’t believe in your God listen and try to understand. So we can all just get along”.
Answer: We could go around forever on this b/c none of this will be proven abd agreed upon by everyone – it comes down to personal choice. I have chosen to believe Jesus Christ is my savior, that my life here isn’t about me, I am made to love others and be obedient, and that God can do anything he chooses – whether I think it’s good or bad for me personally or for others – he’s in control. I’m continuing to pray for you because I love you and want you to experience the love God has for you b/c I believe he created you.
Irene: I have just typed out an answer to your last post and lost it before submitting it somehow. That is so annoying.
But I will never give up!
I was talking to a dear sister this morning about this very issue, (prayer). We lost a dear sister in February to cancer, she was just 50. We thot she had been healed at one point and praised the Lord for answer to prayer, but then it began to spread, it was fluidic in nature so was much harder to treat. She leaves a grieving husband. I have known many dear friends who have been taken by cancer. It is hard to know how to pray when you continue to see this happening.
I know God can use these trials and He has brought some good out of Karen’s death, but still we would love to see a miracle of healing for those still suffering with crippling diseases.
Thankyou for your prayers for Mark and my sister and nieces.
I prayed for years for my husband, we were both unsaved when we married, but two years afterwards I came to know the Lord and that’s when the problems started. He eventually became alcaholic and we were divorced after 20 years of marriage, mostly quite unhappy for me. That was 18 years ago, He lives abroad and continues to resist the love of God.
I never question Gods faithfulness. He has been faithful to me over the years.
One day, I guess we will know what He knows. Meanwhile, we live on earth by faith….for me it is a lot of hit and miss……more misses than hits it seems!
Hi BradC – We had to let Bernie and Fred go. They won’t be posting on here again.
Moderator
Dear Bernie/Fred – You can stop trying to sneak comments in on every computer you can find. It’s not going to happen.
Moderator
[chuckle]
post61,
I can just imagine that image of Bernie desperately trying to get through to…further help us all become critical, independent thinkers[grin].
I advised you at least four times to calm down with your attitude, Bernie[sigh...smile.]
Don’t worry Bernie, they’ll pass the Fairness Doctrine, and then they’ll oppose censorship.
John: It sounds like he is really desperate to continue his war of hate on Christianity. As if he has a great need deep down inside to be obnoxious towards Christians.
It really is so sad that someone should be in such a state.
X: Without some kind of censorship in place there would be anarchy.
truthtalklive: “Dear Bernie/Fred – You can stop trying to sneak comments in on every computer you can find. It’s not going to happen.
Moderator”
Wow, I once said that Bernie’s hatred of Christianity was pathological but I did not realize it was this intense. Any “normal” atheisit would have just said, “OK goodbye Christians, see you in…….” …… hmmm, what does an atheist say? It can’t be see you in the next life. Maybe it would be, “see you rotting in the ground.” No dead people don’t see. What a lifeless religion….what hopelessness their is to atheism. Why would anyone accept such a faith…..it’s a faith isn’t it?
That is the rub with free speech. If you truly believe in it, you will find yourself defending speech that you personally find abhorent. Most people want their own speech to be free, but not those with whom they disagree.
Mike: Why some peoples hearts are so hard and hateful only God knows. And God knows Bernie. Hopefully he has not gone so far that he can never receive salvation.
Kash: There is speech and then there is foul mouthing.
I do find it funny that the title of this thread is “Let him stay or throw him out.”
I guess we’ve answered that question. Lol.
Kash is right, again.
Kash post 67,
Mmmmmmm….and people only like honesty as so long as they like what your telling them, eh[smile]?
The one thing I can respect about Bernie’s comments is that he made people think, if anything then about the many ways they thought he was wrong about them, and ways to try and prove it. Ironically, he probably did more to EMPOWER some people’s faith than destroy it. I tried to help him. As did some others. If Ferox or I can/could stay on this site for as long as we/I have, then good grief, almost anyone can[smile, rolls eyes]!
X: In the Bible there was a situation which lead Paul the apostle to ”throw someone out” of the Church. There are times to forgive and there are times to teach someone they cannot continue in sin.
John: It’s not what they are telling us, it is THE WAY they say it.
I think that was probably a moment of weakness on Paul’s part.
X: It was to get sin out of the Church! And to get a fear towards God into the sinner. (And I don’t mean the kind of fear that makes one terrified!) Fear………reverence for Who He is……..our loving Father God.
If they wanted to get ’sin’ out of the church, they’d stop letting people in.
Sounds to me like Paul was peeved, so he gave a heckler das boot.
Paul wasn’t exactly a model citizen, even after he was ‘born again.’ I kinda think he was certifiably insane.
Its o.k. to admit the biblical authors were human, and subject to human error.
Today’s teaching was about divisiveness in the church – and we are to turn away from such people. It was an extremely good teaching – it was at Calvary Chapel of the Triad. The web site is reachthetriad.com. It’s sad that some hearts are so hardened that they can’t see. Thanks, moderator.
“(And I don’t mean the kind of fear that makes one terrified!)”
Perhaps it’s because the word “Awe” had not yet been invented, X[smile].
X: If they wanted to get ’sin’ out of the church, they’d stop letting people in.
There’s a difference between those who try not to sin and those who don’t believe in or could care less about sin (and not sinning).
X: There is a difference between habitual unrepentent sin and sins we often commit which we have to go to the Lord and ask for forgiveness. We are still in this fleshly body and at times we are tempted by our adversary the devil….that’s one of his jobs, to try and get us to sin…..but we can resist if we are not in a weakened state of mind or spirit, just as Jesus told the disciples when they slept instead of praying the last night before Jesus died, He said, ”The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” Ofcourse, we are this side of the cross and have a new nature and a new life within us, Christ, the Spirit of Life. I was reading Romans 8 this morning actually. But we are still in this world and in this body and to go through life sinless is a feat I don’t think anyone has accomplished except Jesus Christ Himself.
Are you sure you aren’t letting Bernie onto this site on your computer?
Yes…..God is awesome!!!!!
“Paul wasn’t exactly a model citizen, even after he was ‘born again.’ I kinda think he was certifiably insane.” Paul was gloriously human, and absolutely brilliant. All brilliance can seem like insanity at times. He did lose his temper sometimes in his letters…I find it endearing. I am also grateful to God for using such flawed messengers, because it reminds us all that we can be servants for God in spite of our failings.
Jesus would have never had to die on the cross for us if there was anyone out there that was perfect. The difference for us is that we’re forgiven. How awesome is that!! We still have to try to do right just because we’re grateful of the enormous sacrifice Jesus made. At least that’s how I feel about it. I’m happy to see that God’s love is unfailing even when we’re at our weakest and most sinful state. Just take a look at what Moses said to God when the people decided they wanted a golden calf to bow before. Then see what God did. Yeah, He’s aware that we’re messed up!