What To Do When The “Unwanted & Uninvited” Show Up?
Posted by truthtalklive on 6 July, 2009
This post was filed in Christian Living, Christian Teaching, Spreading the Gospel and has 350 comments
On today’s program – A homeless dilemma.
Stu has a friend who owns a high end restaurant in a major city. This Christian businessman hosts a weekly morning bible study at his restaurant that includes a complimentary breakfast.
Recently someone invited a homeless person to the breakfast study. This “hand of kindness” has resulted in a major disruption as restaurant employees are being harassed by others who are looking for a free meal and a handout. So what should Stu’s friend do? We’d like to hear from you. If you can’t get through on our toll free number (866) 34-TRUTH, leave your suggestions here.
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350 Comments on “What To Do When The “Unwanted & Uninvited” Show Up?”
Remember that you don’t owe any freeloader anything. But don’t let the ungrateful, hostile, or crazy behavior of some ruin your spirit of generosity and compassion for your fellow man.
I want to hear more details about this “a major disruption as restaurant employees are being harassed by others who are looking for a free meal and a handout.” so I can get a better idea on what the situation was, to try and give the best answer/suggestion that I can.
This type of situation is not new. Jesus also had people follow Him for His miracle of feeding the five thousand. John 6:26 “Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.” Jesus responded, “Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” Yes, we should have a heart for the poor, but we also need discernment in dealing with those who would free-load just for food. There are many soup kitchens available that would cater more towards those who just want a meal and are not serious about the Gospel.
Luke 10: 25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
29But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”
Obviously there is a need for an outreach to these homeless people. Jesus doesn’t tell us only to give to people who appreciate it, he simply tells us to give and then give more. Have a free breakfast (make it cheaper food if you must), ask the “business people” to donate, have your Bible study some other time if the homeless people are “disruptive”, and have this breakfast time as a time of outreach to these homeless people. If these business people want to live the word rather than just study it, they will grow spiritually from being forced out of their comfort zone to interact with “the least of these”.
Well said. When in doubt, err on the side of compassion.
The Salvation Army here in Britain are among many groups that reach out with compassion to the poor and the homeless. How can we ”walk on the other side”? There but for the grace of God go I!
What To Do When The “Unwanted & Uninvited” Show Up?
When our relatives show up we just turn out the lights and pretend no one is home. Ooops this isn’t about THOSE uninvited guests.
Latest stats on homelessness. Up 9% and more families are showing up at shelters. A good friend of mine has gone to the coast looking for work. He owns a home in the piedmont, but can’t find work here. Food stamps issuance is now at an all time high. U6 unemployment, as calculated by the government using methodology similar to what we used in decades past is now over 16%. True unemployment, removing the birth / death model which is bogus, is now over 21%. These are depression numbers.
YET prices continue to rise. Walmart brand crackers have gone from $.84 to $1.14 per box. Nearly everything I buy has gone up, 10% to 40% in the past year. How is is possible that we have rising prices in a declining economy?
In the mean time, the role of the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency is diminishing day by day. This is from an email I sent out yesterday:
The dollar is finished in Asia. The dollar rules gold in the inverse.
Yuan Deposes Dollar on China Border in Sign of Future (Update1)
By Bloomberg News
July 8 (Bloomberg) — Huang Xinyuan, who sells mining equipment and pesticides to customers across China’s border with Vietnam, says he no longer wants payment in U.S. dollars and prefers the yuan.
Sales using the greenback at Guangxi Jinbei Group, where Huang is vice president, dropped to 30 percent of contracts in 2008 from 87 percent in 2007. The yuan, which has gained 21 percent since it was allowed to strengthen against the dollar starting in 2005, offers greater stability, he said.
“In recent years, the dollar has gone in only one direction and that is down,” said Huang, 45, in his second- floor office in Pingxiang, a town set amongst karst limestone hills and sugar-cane fields in China’s southwest Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region, three kilometers (1.9 miles) from Vietnam. “Settling our orders in yuan removes a major risk.”
China expanded yuan settlement agreements last week from border zones to its largest financial centers, including Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong. The program is being rolled out across Malaysia, Indonesia, Brazil and Russia, all nations seeking to reduce the dollar’s role as the linchpin of world finance and trade.
The central bank first brought up the concept of a supranational currency to replace the greenback in reserves in March. It will sponsor use of the yuan in trade by arranging export tax rebates. Russia and India said the global financial crisis had highlighted the dollar’s flaws and called for a debate before the Group of Eight leaders meet in L’Aquila, Italy, starting today.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aqA9QhRSNeqM
The misery being felt is compliments of our beneficial government. The stimulus package that was suppose to “make things better” is actually making the problems worse. Government talks of creating jobs but fails to recognize that the “jobs” they create destroys jobs elsewhere in the economy.
In two weeks the minimum wage goes up from $6.65 to $7.25 per hour. Anyone want to guess how many jobs will be lost due to government meddling. The minimum wage is just another example of why America has not been a free market economy for decades.
Bernie and kash, do you not see the harm being inflicted on the American people by the Fed. and government largess? The greater the role of government in an economy the more capital is takes from the economy thus impeding the productive private sector. Here is part of an email I sent out yesterday:
“Remember the old film strips in school, which were accompanied by an audio cassette recording. You had to advance to the next slide every time you heard the “beep.” The beep was annoying but it was much better than the older film strips which required some to read the script. I recall never wanting to be selected to read but also dreaded poor verbal readers that made the film strip more boring than watching the grass grow.
Here is a video that will take some of you back to those good old school days of the 60s and 70s, and will let the younger members of this audience realize just how lucky they are to have grown up in a more technologically advanced educational system. What is most interesting about this video, minus the periodic beeps to advance to the next frame, is that it explains how the Fed works and why inflation was being felt in the 70s and why we will suffer a worse bout of inflation today.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7760821786905609611
For those that want a cartoon version, especially Disney fans, here is a short one that gets to the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_LWQQrpSc4
Latest stats on homelessness. Up 9% and more families are showing up at shelters. A good friend of mine has gone to the coast looking for work. He owns a home in the piedmont, but can’t find work here. Food stamps issuance is now at an all time high. U6 unemployment, as calculated by the government using methodology similar to what we used in decades past is now over 16%. True unemployment, removing the birth / death model which is bogus, is now over 21%. These are depression numbers.
Answer: No they’re bogus fabrications once again proving that statistics can be made to say anything. In March 1983 West Virginia had the highest rate of unemployment in a state since 1976. That rate was about 18 percent. So the figure of 21 percent is a wild distortion of the truth coming from a devout Bible believer. Imagine that, a Bible believer distorting the truth about something to instill fear. Gee that never happens! ROFL! Unemployment in this Piedmont area is currently 7.1 percent. Anyone who can’t find a job there isn’t looking hard enough.
YET prices continue to rise. Walmart brand crackers have gone from $.84 to $1.14 per box. Nearly everything I buy has gone up, 10% to 40% in the past year. How is is possible that we have rising prices in a declining economy?
Answer: When I was child food was 16 percent of a family’s income. Today it is 8 percent. So once again Mike is distorting facts to promote his Christian fear mongering.
Bernie and kash, do you not see the harm being inflicted on the American people by the Fed. and government largess? The greater the role of government in an economy the more capital is takes from the economy thus impeding the productive private sector. Here is part of an email I sent out yesterday:
Answer: What does the government do with all this money though? Why it gives it out in contracts to the private sector and hires government employees who both then spend their money IN and WITH the private sector thereby stimulating the economy rather than impeding it.
“Remember the old film strips in school, which were accompanied by an audio cassette recording. You had to advance to the next slide every time you heard the “beep.” The beep was annoying but it was much better than the older film strips which required some to read the script. I recall never wanting to be selected to read but also dreaded poor verbal readers that made the film strip more boring than watching the grass grow.
Answer: Yes and much of what I was fed in public school was government and religious propaganda. I watched propaganda films about how “evil atheists” took over Russia and eliminated religious freedom with a brutal and violent campaign. Later in a high school class on Russian history I learned how the Czars had used Christianity to keep the population ignorant and poor for centuries and that it was the people of Russia themselves who took revenge on the Church and its leaders, NOT the government.
Here is a video that will take some of you back to those good old school days of the 60s and 70s, and will let the younger members of this audience realize just how lucky they are to have grown up in a more technologically advanced educational system.
Answer: Our public schools were dumbed down by religious zealots and right wing fanatics just like Mike several decades ago for the express purpose of making our public school students more susceptible to the delusions of a particular religion, Christianity. Then these same people have the nerve to complain about the quality of education in our public schools!
Mike post 8,
Thank you for the websites.
I don’t know if anyone is paying attention to these predictions Mike has been making but his short-term predictions have all failed so far and most of them were failing as he made them. Check out today’s headline: “565K new jobless claims, lowest level since Jan.” So far everything Mike has posted that could fail has. No doubt given enough time all his other predictions will meet the same fate. Hahaha…
Bernie: “So the figure of 21 percent is a wild distortion of the truth coming from a devout Bible believer. Imagine that, a Bible believer distorting the truth about something to instill fear.”
The 21% unemployment figure comes from John Williams at Government Shadow Statistics. Web site: http://www.shadowstats.com/
You should think about subscribing. If you want to listen to John, just go to this site for a short video made back towards the end of 2007:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRCiA-gy4ds
You will note that much of what Mr. Williams predicted is exactly what is happening at this time. This video was made long before Barak Obama was the Democrat nominee.
When the financial crisis hit last year, it triggered a “TEMPORARY” deflationary event. Global deleveraging brought down prices and oil demand plummeted.
Here is a January 2009 interview with John Williams. Notice his predictions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKeI8GqQUd4&feature=related
Bernie: “I don’t know if anyone is paying attention to these predictions Mike has been making but his short-term predictions have all failed so far and most of them were failing as he made them.”
My predictions back in January 2009 when I and Doug were on the program so far have dead on right. My predictions regarding this economy are as follows:
1. I expect some sort of economic bounce that should last 2 to 4 quarters. I would expect to see some sort of recovery around the end of the Q3. You can’t throw hundreds of billions at an economy without triggering some sort of bounce.
2. Said recovery will not last long and eventually the economy will start back down. The bailouts and stimulus packages will succeed in bringing on increasing prices on nearly all goods and services we need for every day living.
3. The US dollar will continue on its trajectory DOWN. Gold will have another positive year, making it the only asset class to be up 9 years in a row.
4. 2010 will be a rotten year for anyone that has not prepared for the coming dollar devaluation.
5. By January 2011, gold will be pushing on to $2000 if not higher. I agree with Alf Field’s target minimum of $3500 on gold. Silver will out perform gold as it should reach a 25 to 1 ratio to gold.
6. The stock market will continue to deteriorate until such a time that inflation pressures begin to accelerate. Excess money will find its way into stocks but the rise will be in nominal terms only. I expect the Gold to DOW ratio to reach 1:1 or close to it just as it did twice in the last century.
7. Living standards will decline in the West – US and Europe.
8. Over the next 5years we will witness, an increase in crime, civil unrest, and general violence. A new American Revolution is coming. The Tea Parties were just the beginning.
9. The Democrat party will be a minority party in the 2012 elections. Obama will be a one term president.
10. The BRIC nations will emerge as the economic powerhouses in the next decade.
11. Sometime over the next decade the US dollar will be dropped as the world’s reserve currency.
12. Inflationary pressures will drive interest rates much higher.
13. Higher tax rates, including increases in Social Security taxes will drive the most productive members of our society out of the country.
14. The American Empire is in decline. We will be forced to bring home all those troops now serving on US bases overseas.
15. An energy crisis of Biblical proportions is just on the horizon. Oil production has been in decline since May 2005. Shortages will lead to conflict among nations. The declining dollar along with supply shortfalls will shift the global economy to a more local economy. Food we consume will be more local.
Bernie as you see my predictions are both short, intermediate, and long term. Short term, I expect to see the US Dollar break supports 78 on the USDX by November 2009. Inflationary pressures will increase. The housing market will continue to decline which will have a negative impact on our consumer based economy. Commercial real estate is coming unglued and will continue to do so. Expect to see the once happy shopper malls look more like empty ghost towns. Credit card debt is another shoe that is now dropping, which I predicted it would last year.
Two years ago I began to predict a Hyperinflationary depression. We now have the depression and the inflation is now visible and getting worse. Gold is the canary in the coal mine and it has been warning us for 9 years that hard times are coming.
Bernie, I feel sorry for you…. I feel sorry for all deranged people.
Here is a 60 Minutes interview with David Walker. This is before the whole financial system went into the toilet. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=12567387
This man’s credentials are not quite as good as Bernie’s, but good enough for me. We all know that since Bernie believes there is no god, he has appointed himself as god. He knows everything.
Of course Bernie knows more than the following people;
http://inflation.us/videos.html
Bernie, how did you get so smart. John Williams sells his information to Fortune 500 companies. Peter Schiff manages millions of dollar. Dr. Marc Faber, Puru Saxena, Jimmy Rogers, also manage billions of dollars in portfolios. Dr. Ron Paul has been warning of the coming economic crisis for decades and is one of the very few congressmen that have actually opposed Fed policy and was never fooled by Greenspan double speak.
What do you manage, Bernie. How many books have you written. What predictions have you made regarding the economy and the markets. Oh, I remember, your father lost a few million in the recent stock market bust. Were you managing his money?
Bernie you write much on this site but say so very little. But you do give me a platform to warn my brothers and sisters in Christ that a crisis is on the way. Maybe, I have even begun to open kash and mherman’s eyes. I do hope so.
Here is the best video on inflation and why I have no faith in the people running the government:
http://inflation.us/videos.html
Bernie seems to think things are getting better. Yep, were coming out of this little recession. I guess Bernie is going to have to argue with the following Bloomberg article:
( Comment: The damage is done and the downward spiral keeps expanding. The Formula will not be undone until it completes its currency intentions.) Note the formula is the mechanism by which we get the downward spiral in both the economy and the US dollar.
Delinquencies on U.S. Home-Equity Loans Reach Record (Update1)
By Margaret Chadbourn
July 7 (Bloomberg) — Late payments on home-equity loans rose to a record in the first quarter as 18 straight months of job losses and a slumping economy left more borrowers unable to pay their debts, the American Bankers Association reported.
Delinquencies on home-equity loans climbed to 3.52 percent of all accounts from 3.03 percent in the fourth quarter, and late payments on home-equity lines of credit climbed to a record 1.89 percent, the group reported today. An index of eight types of loans rose for a fourth straight quarter, to 3.23 percent from 3.22 percent in October through December, the group said.
“The number one driver of delinquencies is job losses, which we’ve seen build and build,” James Chessen, the group’s chief economist, said in a telephone interview. “Delinquencies won’t come down without a dramatic improvement in the economy and businesses will have to start hiring again.”
The U.S. economy lost an average 691,000 jobs a month in the quarter, and more than 6.5 million positions have been shed since the recession began in December 2007. The economy this year will shrink the most since 1946, according to a Bloomberg survey of 61 economists last month. President Barack Obama predicted last month unemployment will reach 10 percent this year. The rate was at a 26-year high of 9.5 percent in June.
Delinquent bank-card accounts jumped to a record 6.60 percent of outstanding card debt in the first quarter from 5.52 percent in the previous period, a signal unemployed borrowers are relying on cards as falling prices erode the equity in their homes. More borrowers are using cards to meet daily expenses after losing their jobs, the ABA said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=axMDObJEk6eA
OR this one
(Comments: There is no limit to the amount of stimulation or QE that will be applied in the West because the only problem that has been approached is making good to the winners on the OTC derivatives held by major financial institutions.
Banks are still hanging on by their fingernails with all hopes pined on the elusive green shoots.
The first quarter earnings in the financial world were a onetime gift from FASB (at the cost of all they are supposed to stand for) that is now sterile under present circumstances. In simple English, they have already marked up the inventory out of sight.
Should the Fed roll over under the pressure of Administration wishes or the Fed morph from monetary meddler to regulator, the “no limit QE” will become the goal of all stimulative endeavours with all the consequences so ignored by the practitioners of management of perspective economics coming into play.)
U.S. must be open to second economic stimulus: Hoyer
Tue Jul 7, 2009 7:38pm EDT
By Susan Cornwell and Jeremy Pelofsky
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. leaders should be open to the possibility of a second stimulus package to jolt the economy out of a recession still causing job losses, House of Representatives Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said on Tuesday.
But in the Senate, Majority Leader Harry Reid was more skeptical of the need for more stimulus spending — an idea that rattled markets fearful that the economy is far from well and corporate earnings could suffer.
Reid said he saw no evidence another stimulus was needed, saying the “shoots” of economic recovery “are now appearing above the ground.”
President Barack Obama led the charge for a two-year $787 billion stimulus package that his fellow Democrats who control Congress pushed through the House and Senate in February and he has argued it would help create or save up to 4 million jobs.
Despite continued large job losses, both Reid and Hoyer — who spoke at separate news conferences — said not enough time had passed since first package was approved for it to have the full impact on the U.S. economy, which has been in a recession since December 2007.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5664P720090707?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
OR
(Comment: Of course they don’t. Would you?)
Big Banks Don’t Want California’s IOUs
By RYAN KNUTSON
A group of the biggest U.S. banks said they would stop accepting California’s IOUs on Friday, adding pressure on the state to close its $26.3 billion annual budget gap.
Dorothy Cottrill of the state controller’s office inspects IOUs last week.
The development is the latest twist in California’s struggle to deal with the effects of the recession. After state leaders failed to agree on budget solutions last week, California began issuing IOUs — or “individual registered warrants” — to hundreds of thousands of creditors. State Controller John Chiang said that without IOUs, California would run out of cash by July’s end.
But now, if California continues to issue the IOUs, creditors will be forced to hold on to them until they mature on Oct. 2, or find other banks to honor them. When the IOUs mature, holders will be paid back directly by the state at an annual 3.75% interest rate. Some banks might also work with creditors to come up with an interim solution, such as extending them a line of credit, said Beth Mills, a California Bankers Association spokeswoman.
Meanwhile, on Monday morning, a budget meeting between Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and legislative leaders failed to produce a result. Amid the budget deadlock, Fitch Ratings on Monday dropped California’s bond rating to BBB, down from A minus, the latest in a series of ratings downgrades for the state.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124692354575702881.html
OR
(Comment: A dollar rally? You have to be kidding.
If my math is correct, we have 126 days to go. The peddle is to the metal now as leading producers seek something….anything…other than dollars.)
China requests reserve currency debate at G8 -sources
Wed Jul 1, 2009 1:17pm EDT
July 1 (Reuters) – China has asked to debate proposals for a new global reserve currency at next week’s Group of Eight summit in Italy and the issue could be referred to briefly in the summit statement, G8 sources said on Wednesday.
One G8 source who was involved in the negotiations said China made the request during preparatory talks about a joint statement to be issued on the second day of the summit in L’Aquila by the G8 plus the G5 (Brazil, India, China, Mexico and South Africa) and also Egypt.
This forum, the so-called “G14″, meets on July 9 to discuss the financial crisis, trade and climate change and for the first time a G8 summit will also produce a joint G14 statement.
The euro EUR= surged around half a cent to session highs above 1.42 against the dollar immediately after the news.
A European source with knowledge of preparations for the summit also said China had raised the subject of a reserve currency debate and that it might be mentioned during the meeting, though the source added: “Any country at the meeting can raise issues they see fit.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/usDollarRpt/idUSL129307120090701
(Comment: That is a polite statement, but read further and you find the constant word DIVERSIFICATION.)
China Seeks ‘Stable’ Dollar, Monetary Diversification (Update2)
By Bloomberg News
July 2 (Bloomberg) — China, the largest holder of foreign currency reserves, reiterated its call for a stable dollar and a diversification of the international monetary system.
“We hope that as the main reserve currency the exchange rate of the U.S. dollar will be stable,” Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei told reporters in Beijing.
The vice minister said he wasn’t aware that China had pushed for the subject of a reserve currency to be on the agenda of this month’s Group of Eight summit, though “if this issue is raised by leaders during the meeting it is nothing strange, it is natural because we are all discussing how to respond to the international crisis.”
China, whose leaders have expressed concern that U.S. government spending to counter a recession will weaken the dollar, cut its holdings of dollar reserves by $4.4 billion in April to $763.5 billion, the latest figures available show. The dollar rose against the euro and erased losses versus the yen after He’s comments.
“The magnitude of China’s foreign-exchange holdings limits its ability to move out of the dollar very quickly without shooting itself in the foot,” said David Cohen, an economist with Action Economics in Singapore. “Finding alternatives is a long-term goal.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ahNuJfheitrI
Of course the deranged people will not be convinced by these stories or the comments of some of the most respected economists or portfolio managers in the world. Everything is fine…all is well…it will be as it was. Get your credit cards ready we are but a few months from the Christmas holidays.
9. The Democrat party will be a minority party in the 2012 elections. Obama will be a one term president.
Answer: When you hear or read a person call the Democratic Party the Democrat party that person just might be a redneck. ROFL!
Bernie, I feel sorry for you…. I feel sorry for all deranged people.
Answer: When Mike gets his ego shattered and his posts soundly refuted the number of articles he cuts and pastes in response is in direct proportion to how bad his feelings were hurt. Look at how many articles he pasted this time! Got him good this time. Don’t believe it? Look at the few words he actually came up with by himself. They’re nothing but childish insults.
This man’s credentials are not quite as good as Bernie’s, but good enough for me. We all know that since Bernie believes there is no god, he has appointed himself as god. He knows everything.
Answer: When did I say I believe there is no god exactly? Mike thinks he’s going to live forever in a magical kingdom like a god. I don’t entertain that absurd impossible fantasy. Why? Because I know I’m a biological organism and not a god. Mike does not know that about himself. He thinks he’s a god.
Bernie, how did you get so smart. John Williams sells his information to Fortune 500 companies. Peter Schiff manages millions of dollar. Dr. Marc Faber, Puru Saxena, Jimmy Rogers, also manage billions of dollars in portfolios. Dr. Ron Paul has been warning of the coming economic crisis for decades and is one of the very few congressmen that have actually opposed Fed policy and was never fooled by Greenspan double speak.
Answer: Exactly. People have been warning of a financial collapse for decades, for centuries. Who cares? When one comes they’ll be right. By default. But they’ll have been wrong 99 percent of the time. How come you can’t see that? Peter Schiff! hahaha
What do you manage, Bernie. How many books have you written. What predictions have you made regarding the economy and the markets. Oh, I remember, your father lost a few million in the recent stock market bust. Were you managing his money?
Answer: I predicted that all the doomsayers like Mike would always be wrong. So far I’ve been right on. Hahaha
Bernie you write much on this site but say so very little. But you do give me a platform to warn my brothers and sisters in Christ that a crisis is on the way. Maybe, I have even begun to open kash and mherman’s eyes. I do hope so.
Answer: You cut and paste a lot, hurl insults at people who see through your garbage and other than that you say absolutely nothing. If wasn’t saying anything you wouldn’t get so upset about what I post. You’re not kidding anyone.
Bernie seems to think things are getting better. Yep, were coming out of this little recession. I guess Bernie is going to have to argue with the following Bloomberg article:
Answer: I haven’t said anything about where I think the economy is going. Since you can’t argue with what I do say you continually claim I hold other positions and attack them. The funny thing is you can’t even defeat your own straw man arguments.
Of course the deranged people will not be convinced by these stories or the comments of some of the most respected economists or portfolio managers in the world. Everything is fine…all is well…it will be as it was. Get your credit cards ready we are but a few months from the Christmas holidays.
Answer: No more Christmas in my country buddy. It’s now the holiday season. Your personal attacks reflect the frustration and anger my posts have caused you to have to bear. Anyone who pays any attention to people like you ought to have their heads examined. You predict a total financial meltdown and tell people that somehow their gold will still be worth something when this happens. Sure. Guns and food will be the only things of value in that kind of world and if that should happen all your gold won’t buy you a loaf of bread.
Mike, you believe in magic, magical beings, magical kingdoms and a lot of other nonsense. You have no room to call other people deranged. You’re a Bible believer. A person who lets other people tell him that the Bible is a magic book when it’s obvious to any intelligent thinking person the Bible is a bunch or religious nonsense and forgeries. Like a true evangelical you can’t stand criticism and being proved wrong the way you have just drives you to lash out with personal insults. Yep, you’re a true Christian.
9. The Democrat party will be a minority party in the 2012 elections. Obama will be a one term president.
Answer: Of course right now we have the smallest percentage of people claiming to be Republicans in the history of the Republican Party. We have Republican politicians self-destructing on a weekly basis now. Losing seats in Congress, losing governors, losing local elections… The Republican Party may not even exist as we know it by 2012. What will the majority party be exactly Mike? It’s not going to be the Christopublicans. That’s for sure. The Republican Party is going the same way Christianity is. Down the drain and we’ll all be better off for it.
Yeah. Really. I don’t know what they’re smoking, but I’d pay good money for it.
Bernie: “I know I’m a biological organism …” Agreed
Bernie: “The Republican Party may not even exist as we know it by 2012.” I certainly hope so.
Bernie: “What will the majority party be exactly Mike?….”Conservative, with true conservative values… values like we had written into our Constitution and Declaration of Independence.”
Bernie: “….the same way Christianity is. Down the drain ….” Now who is making ridiculous predictions. That one has been predicted off and on for 2,000 years.
Bernie: “Look at how many articles he pasted this time! ” It is called documentation, or support by well established experts unless of course you do not consider David Walker, who use to be the top Accountant for the United States a hack…..I guess in Bernie’s mind, David is a hack.
Bernie: “People have been warning of a financial collapse for decades…..” You have a point. Billy Mitchell started warning of the coming age of air warfare 2 decades before the attack on Pearl Harbor. A book written in the early 80s, AT DAWN WE SLEPT, documents the flaws in our security systems that failed to prevent Pearl Harbor. In the book the author stated that weaknesses in our system of national security were still present and that the US was vulnerable to a major attack by a foreign enemy. Again nearly 2 decades before 9-11. Some people have a point, it just that it is at the top of their heads.
Bernie: “I haven’t said anything about where I think the economy is going…..” Key word is, “think.” By your ramblings about how gold is a bad investment, which proves you have no idea as to the function of gold, you do indeed make predictions by default. If you had been on the Titanic after it hit the iceberg and someone suggest you get to the life boats and you insisted on going on to dance floor for the evening music; you would indeed be making a prediction…..sort of sounds like you doesn’t it?
Bernie: “Like a true evangelical you can’t stand criticism and being proved wrong the way you have just drives you to lash out with personal insults.” Speaking the truth is not insulting. Calling a man that drinks too much an alcoholic is not insulting. Calling a person who steals a thief is not insulting. Calling someone who attacks everything a person says on ANY subject deranged is not insulting.
Bernie: “Yep, you’re a true Christian.” Agreed
Bernie: “I don’t know if anyone is paying attention to these predictions Mike has been making ” At this time you are the only one disagreeing…..a one man parade.
Bernie: “Check out today’s headline: “565K new jobless claims, lowest level since Jan.” ‘ Only a Liberal could believe that 565,000 new jobless claims are good news….I was going to say “Only Bernie” but decided that a general statement on all deranged people was merited.
Bernie: “When I was child food was 16 percent of a family’s income….” I never realized you ever were a child. I thought you were just a biological organism.
Bernie: “Why it gives it out in contracts to the private sector and hires government employees who both then spend their money IN and WITH the private sector thereby stimulating the economy rather than impeding it.”
You sir have just demonstrated your ignorance on economics and why you do not have clue as to what is going on and what will happen to this nation if it continues on its current path.
1. Most of Stimulus one was transfer payments therefore stimulating nothing. The GAO’s own figures state that of the money set aside as stimulus, only 7% or $190 billion over 9 years will provide ANY stimulus to the economy. That comes to $20 billion per year in a $13 trillion economy.
2. Government cannot stimulate squat. Government borrowing, even when it is legit., reduces the pool of money available to private business. In that respect it does more harm than good.
3. Look who is getting the government money. The government could have just paid off everyone’s mortgage and there would be no banking crisis in real estate. No forclosures, no defaults on mortgage bonds by insurers, no financial crisis. It would have cost less than giving the Banksters the billions to bail them out and still the real estate crisis is going full guns.
4. The focus of all the stimulus is the consumer. The government wants the consumer to resume spending, which is what got us into this mess in the first place….excessive credit / ballooning debt and too much spending. Even if the US consumer is resuscitated, the Chinese economy will benefit more than ours. It is manufacturing that brings real wealth, not consumption.
We’ve been through this before. John Maynard Keynes will be proven wrong. Not because his theory of economics was ideologically flawed, but because he failed to take into account human nature…which by the way the Bible says is the most critical part of all our human interactions. If men were angels we could establish a Communist utopia and Keynesian economics would end the business cycle; but the Bible says “the human heart is wicked, who can know it.” Score another big one for the Bible.
Mike: ”Calling someone who attacks everything a person says on ANY subject deranged is not insulting.”
I wouldn’t quite use the word deranged myself……..wouldn’t that mean that Bernie is insane?
But one does wonder why he is SO negative about everything that a Christian says on any subject we have tackled on this site. I mean
nothing of any value exists according to him. What a sad world he paints eh? One also wonders if he is atall happy in it.
Bernie: “Why it gives it out in contracts to the private sector..” Socialism, in practice, is not the equal distribution of wealth. On the contrary, it is the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few elite.
Government regulations and burdensome taxation impact the small businesses more so that large corporations. Example: Let’s say a business man wants to open a business but needs $50,000 to comply with EPA impact studies and other government regulations. Such an amount of money might be difficult for the little guy but represents a drop in the bucket for the big corporations. There will be companies that “live” off the government dole but the bigger government gets the more difficult the environment for those that want to compete with the big boys.
In simple terms, socialism is nothing more than a return to the feudal state with the aristocracy at the top and the serfs, dependent on the lord of the manor, at the bottom.
mherman: “But one does wonder why he is SO negative about everything that a Christian says on any subject we have tackled on this site. I mean
nothing of any value exists according to him. What a sad world he paints eh? One also wonders if he is atall happy in it.”
That is why I feel sorry for him. It must drive him nuts to see Christians go through difficult periods, just as all human beings do, and still remain confident in our Lord. We know the end of the story and he, Bernie, doesn’t. Death for Christians is just a shadow we pass through. We weep when a loved one dies because we will not see them for a while. But we know that in the end we will rejoice at the reunion. What does Bernie have to look forward to? The best he can hope for is that he dies and rots in the ground. When a loved one dies, its over in his world. He knows he will not see them again…ever. AND THAT IS THE BEST HE CAN HOPE FOR. Somewhere in the back of Bernie’s mind he knows that the possibility exists that he is wrong. Even if the odds are 1 trillion to 1, he knows that if there is a god and that god is the God of the Bible; then the outcome for him is much worse than just rotting in the ground.
mherman, if you were in Bernie’s shoes would you not also be…….(I’ll let you fill in the blank.)
mherman, I do hope you have taken the time to check out the references regarding the economy, I have provided. I do not know how things are in your neck of the woods, but people are really hurting here. I am seeing more homes that look like they are in foreclosure than I have ever seen before. I’ve also noted a few more empty stores at some of the local strip malls. So far it appears that the government is determined to make things worse. It all started under George Bush, whom I cannot stand, and now his policies are on steroids with Barak Obama.
Bernie keeps thinking I am a Republican. I am not a Republican, I am a Conservative / Independent. I despise the Republican party almost as much as I despise the Democrats. About the only thing I agree with the Republicans on is the abortion issue, and even there they do not take a strong enough stance on the issue. If they believe that life begins at conception, then how can they even suggest that abortion should be allowed. If a government does not protect the rights (the right to life has to be the most basic) of its most defenseless people what good is that government. If the Republicans believe life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. At least they, the Republicans, believe it should be left up to the states as it was before Roe vs. Wade.
mherman: “I wouldn’t quite use the word deranged myself……..wouldn’t that mean that Bernie is insane?” Close
Bernie, here is another one of my cut and paste articles….some of the phony statistics I provide.
Homelessness up in the suburbs in 2008
By Catherine Clifford, CNNMoney.com staff writer
On Thursday July 9, 2009, 7:38 pm EDT
Homeless families in suburban and rural areas jumped by 56% in 2008, according to a government report released Thursday.
Plus, the number of homeless individuals in suburban and rural areas spiked by nearly 34%, according to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development’s “2008 Annual Homeless Assessment Report to Congress.”
The report found that despite these jumps, homelessness nationwide remained relatively stable.
But the spike in suburban and rural communities, areas that have been especially hard hit by the housing meltdown, “begs many questions about how today’s housing crisis and job losses are playing out in our shelters and on our streets,” said HUD Secretary Shaun Donovan in a written statement.
Nationally, the number of families in need of a place to live increased by 9%, the report said.
Meanwhile, nationwide, the number of individuals without shelter dipped 1% in 2008 compared to 2007. On a single night in January 2008, about 664,000 people – counting those in shelter and those unsheltered – didn’t have a home. That was 7,500 fewer than the previous year.
Even with homelessness remaining relatively steady nationwide, the report noted that more people were coming to homeless shelters from stable living arrangements, or places they had lived for one year or more.
Between October 1, 2007 and September 30, 2008, about 1.6 million homeless people turned to facilitated housing, after using up hospitality of family or friends.
On Thursday, Donovan awarded $1.2 billion to over 400 communities across the nation to get families that fell into homelessness back into homes quickly – or prevent them from becoming homeless in the first place.
“The Administration’s aggressive approach to economic recovery recognizes that during these difficult times, families in certain areas of the country are at extreme risk of falling into homelessness,” said Donovan.
The funds are part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. A total of $1.5 billion has been provided for short and medium-term rental assistance – between 3 and 18 months worth – to individuals and families in the Homeless Prevention and Rapid Re-housing Program (HPRP). In addition, the funds will go toward utility deposits, utility payments, moving cost assistance, and hotel vouchers.
While only $1.2 billion of the allocated $1.5 billion have been awarded, the plans for the remainder of the funds will be released in the next weeks.
“This is money that will not only spare families the hardships of homelessness, but will save taxpayers significant money in the long run,” said Donovan in a written statement. “Often times, a little bit of financial assistance can make all the difference between a stable home and being forced to live in a shelter or on the streets.”
In order to keep a closer watch on homelessness in the wake of surging foreclosure rates and record-high unemployment, HUD will increase its frequency of homelessness reports. It will release a Quarterly Homeless Pulse Report starting with the first quarter of 2009.
Even as the 2008 homelessness report showed an increase in homelessness in the suburbs, homelessness remained concentrated in urban areas. On a single night in January, 20% of homeless people were located in Los Angeles, New York, and Detroit.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Homelessness-up-in-the-cnnm-860832229.html?x=0&.v=1&sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=
Ahhhh….the Liberal Meccas of L.A., N.Y., and Detroit.
The solution to the problem is to let the foreclosures proceed. Those with adequate finances will be able to buy homes at bargain prices. Those with investment capital will pick up real estate cheap and then provide homes to renters. The system will be washed out, prices will stabilize. Those that made poor choices by lending money to people that could not afford to pay will go belly up, leaving their assets to lending institutions that were responsible and within a couple of years the system will be ready to move ahead. This is what happened in 1920 and all previous depressions where the government did not meddle. It was not until 1930 that government got involved in helping the economy along that we got the Great Depression that lasted 12 years and the current Big Bust.
The economic cycle is necessary to cleanse the system. When the government interferes in the process….Keynesian economics….it distorts the markets. For a while it seems that government is managing things well but in truth they are setting up a bigger bust down the road. Eventually the excesses must be washed out. You can wash them out little by little with each downturn in the economy or you can let them build and get a Big crash and heaven knows what else.
Mike: ”That is why I feel sorry for him. It must drive him nuts to see Christians go through difficult periods, just as all human beings do, and still remain confident in our Lord.”
Yes, and I’v been through some. My faith and my joy in knowing Jesus was strongest in my darkest hour. What does Bernie have in these times I wonder?
”What does Bernie have to look forward to?”
Good question. I wonder if he and others like him, with no God and no hope in this world, think of that?
”Somewhere in the back of Bernie’s mind he knows that the possibility exists that he is wrong”
I hope so, atleast with some doubt as to what happens after death, it may lead him to the Truth eventually. I think his bold front…is just that!…but God knows what goes on in his mind.
”mherman, if you were in Bernie’s shoes would you not also be…….(I’ll let you fill in the blank.)”
It is difficult to put myself in his shoes (I’m size 6 anyway!!
) but if I were Bernie…..I would be just like Bernie. That gives me a great sense of thankfulness that I came to know Jesus Christ and His love for me….but terribly sad that people like him cannot see it. I may have sounded like I was shouting the truth at him sometimes, but telling him how much Jesus loves him came from a deep and sincere yearning in my heart for him to see and understand it!
I have as much interest in financial affairs as I do about football!!
Sorry, you can’t interest me in stocks and shares etc. But, yes, things aren’t too good here either, though I don’t think it is quite so bad here as over there. And I vote for UKIP, United Kingdom Independent Party, because I don’t want Britain swallowed up by Europe.
mherman: “I have as much interest in financial affairs as I do about football!!
Sorry, you can’t interest me in stocks and shares etc. ”
The economy affects us all. What our nations do now will have an impact on our children and grandchildren. The quality of life they have and their freedoms depend on what we do and therefore we should be as knowledgeable as possible.
Many of my friends are retired and living off pensions and social security. The economic downturn has thus far little effect on them. Should they be concerned? You bet they should. Even those with government pensions may find themselves in a world of hurt should those pensions go bust. Many state retirement plans are in serious trouble and the states are in no position to help them out.
What is swallowing us up are the Central Banks.
X post 18,
It’s good to hear from you again.
And I’ve never smoked anything in my whole life[smile].
I’m always watching these boards, but I rarely post anything.
You’re being watched O.O
X post 29,
As one who meddles with and gets meddled by spiritual beings, in addition to being a theist, I have grown accustomed to people that I can’t see playing voyeur so you just knock yourself out, X[smile].
Man, I wish I could be pagan. Paganism would be such a fun religion to practice.
X: If fun is all you want.
Bernie: “What will the majority party be exactly Mike?….”Conservative, with true conservative values… values like we had written into our Constitution and Declaration of Independence.”
Answer: You mean values like making African Americans three-fifths of a person, making slavery legal, denying women the right to vote… those typically conservative values?
Bernie: “….the same way Christianity is. Down the drain ….” Now who is making ridiculous predictions. That one has been predicted off and on for 2,000 years.
Answer: Yes but never before in history has an entire generation rejected the Christian religion. There is no one left to pass the traditions and superstitions of this evil religion on to.
Bernie: “Look at how many articles he pasted this time! ” It is called documentation, or support by well established experts unless of course you do not consider David Walker, who use to be the top Accountant for the United States a hack…..I guess in Bernie’s mind, David is a hack.
Answer: No it’s called appeals to authority, something people do when they cannot defend their own arguments with their own thoughts. You are a prime example of that kind of person.
Bernie: “People have been warning of a financial collapse for decades…..” You have a point. Billy Mitchell started warning of the coming age of air warfare 2 decades before the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Answer: Yes but there was already air warfare in World War I. That’s like predicting the New York Yankees will when some baseball games.
A book written in the early 80s, AT DAWN WE SLEPT, documents the flaws in our security systems that failed to prevent Pearl Harbor. In the book the author stated that weaknesses in our system of national security were still present and that the US was vulnerable to a major attack by a foreign enemy. Again nearly 2 decades before 9-11. Some people have a point, it just that it is at the top of their heads.
Answer: There is no way to guarantee we won’t be attacked by terrorists. The only way to reduce this threat is to end our support for the illegal regime of Israel, stop forcing our will on other countries, end all wars of aggression, and stop acting like we are a Christian nation. Christianity is the ultimate manifestation of evil, of untruths and the worst human tragedy ever to happen on this planet and the rest of the world now recognizes this.
Bernie: “I haven’t said anything about where I think the economy is going…..” Key word is, “think.” By your ramblings about how gold is a bad investment, which proves you have no idea as to the function of gold, you do indeed make predictions by default. If you had been on the Titanic after it hit the iceberg and someone suggest you get to the life boats and you insisted on going on to dance floor for the evening music; you would indeed be making a prediction…..sort of sounds like you doesn’t it?
Answer: No, you’re the one who will drown clutching to your worthless metals as they drag you to the poorhouse as they’ve done to so many gold hustlers before you. Do you know how many people have gone broke relying on gold as an investment? If gold were really a good investment why isn’t there one person alive today or in the past that made a fortune buying and holding gold? How much did the Hunt brothers lose trying to corner the market on silver? They lost billions! ROFL!
Bernie: “Like a true evangelical you can’t stand criticism and being proved wrong the way you have just drives you to lash out with personal insults.” Speaking the truth is not insulting. Calling a man that drinks too much an alcoholic is not insulting. Calling a person who steals a thief is not insulting. Calling someone who attacks everything a person says on ANY subject deranged is not insulting.
Answer: Speaking falsehoods and calling them “truth” is a common practice among Christians. In fact it is all your false religion is based on.
Bernie: “I don’t know if anyone is paying attention to these predictions Mike has been making ” At this time you are the only one disagreeing…..a one man parade.
Answer: Out how many, what, 3 other people at the most?
Bernie: “Check out today’s headline: “565K new jobless claims, lowest level since Jan.” ‘ Only a Liberal could believe that 565,000 new jobless claims are good news….I was going to say “Only Bernie” but decided that a general statement on all deranged people was merited.
Answer: Except when the economy is healthy and unemployment is low 565,000 jobless claims is typical. Especially since more people found jobs than lost them in this same period. Mike wouldn’t know this because his leaders have kept him in the dark and he doesn’t pay any attention to people who disagree with his leaders. You know, the REAL experts.
Bernie: “When I was child food was 16 percent of a family’s income….” I never realized you ever were a child. I thought you were just a biological organism.
Answer: Biological organisms go through stages of development. There is no evidence that any were ever created with the appearance of age, or from a rib.
You sir have just demonstrated your ignorance on economics and why you do not have clue as to what is going on and what will happen to this nation if it continues on its current path.
Answer: That’s what you think. I’ll match incomes and net worth with you or anyone else on this blog. I could buy your trailer or your Dodge Dart and burn them and it wouldn’t put a dent in my finances.
2. Government cannot stimulate squat. Government borrowing, even when it is legit., reduces the pool of money available to private business. In that respect it does more harm than good.
Answer: The government spends most of the money it borrows WITH the private sector.
3. Look who is getting the government money. The government could have just paid off everyone’s mortgage and there would be no banking crisis in real estate. No forclosures, no defaults on mortgage bonds by insurers, no financial crisis. It would have cost less than giving the Banksters the billions to bail them out and still the real estate crisis is going full guns.
Answer: The government should not be bailing any businesses. I can’t believe it when congressmen, people who are supposed to be enforcing our antitrust laws, say that some businesses are too big to fail. No kidding – and guess who let these businesses get too big to fail. We could have let these banks, insurance companies and car companies fail. When the government steps in and gives money to losers who couldn’t adapt in a changing market or just made stupid mistakes it creates an imbalance in the free market. Once a dead companies assets become cheap enough someone will always come in and scoop them up.
We’ve been through this before. John Maynard Keynes will be proven wrong. Not because his theory of economics was ideologically flawed, but because he failed to take into account human nature…which by the way the Bible says is the most critical part of all our human interactions. If men were angels we could establish a Communist utopia and Keynesian economics would end the business cycle; but the Bible says “the human heart is wicked, who can know it.” Score another big one for the Bible.
Answer: The Bible is wrong about the human heart being wicked. The biblical authors were not being metaphorical when they spoke of the heart. They actually believed people thought with and their emotions came form their hearts. Score another insurmountable problem for Bible believers. ROFL!
Mike: ”Calling someone who attacks everything a person says on ANY subject deranged is not insulting.”
Answer: I haven’t attacked everything you’ve said. I have carefully pointed out the mistakes and outright lies in your posts. There are so many it just seems like I’m attacking everything to you have said.
I wouldn’t quite use the word deranged myself……..wouldn’t that mean that Bernie is insane?
Answer: I don’t believe in invisible beings for which there is no existence, invisible places for which there is no existence, stupid stories and people for which there is absolutely no evidence, or any of the other religious claptrap and nonsense that Mike believes in.
But one does wonder why he is SO negative about everything that a Christian says on any subject we have tackled on this site. I mean nothing of any value exists according to him. What a sad world he paints eh? One also wonders if he is atall happy in it.
Answer: Just because I recognize that there is nothing of value in Christian superstitions doesn’t mean I think nothing of value exists. I just don’t place any value on the Christian religion because there isn’t any. Christianity is as worthless as a side saddle on a boar hog.
Bernie: “Why it gives it out in contracts to the private sector..” Socialism, in practice, is not the equal distribution of wealth. On the contrary, it is the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few elite.
Answer: Socialism is definitely NOT a concentration of wealth in the hands of a few elite. People can become very rich in socialist countries but they must be very industrious because they pay very high taxes. What socialism does is raise the living standards of people who would otherwise be poor under other systems of government.
Government regulations and burdensome taxation impact the small businesses more so that large corporations. Example: Let’s say a business man wants to open a business but needs $50,000 to comply with EPA impact studies and other government regulations. Such an amount of money might be difficult for the little guy but represents a drop in the bucket for the big corporations. There will be companies that “live” off the government dole but the bigger government gets the more difficult the environment for those that want to compete with the big boys.
In simple terms, socialism is nothing more than a return to the feudal state with the aristocracy at the top and the serfs, dependent on the lord of the manor, at the bottom.
Answer: That describes monarchies, theocracies, communism and our form of corporate bribery we call democracy but has nothing to do with socialism.
That is why I feel sorry for him. It must drive him nuts to see Christians go through difficult periods, just as all human beings do, and still remain confident in our Lord. We know the end of the story and he, Bernie, doesn’t. Death for Christians is just a shadow we pass through. We weep when a loved one dies because we will not see them for a while. But we know that in the end we will rejoice at the reunion. What does Bernie have to look forward to? The best he can hope for is that he dies and rots in the ground. When a loved one dies, its over in his world. He knows he will not see them again…ever. AND THAT IS THE BEST HE CAN HOPE FOR. Somewhere in the back of Bernie’s mind he knows that the possibility exists that he is wrong. Even if the odds are 1 trillion to 1, he knows that if there is a god and that god is the God of the Bible; then the outcome for him is much worse than just rotting in the ground.
Answer: The problem with that idea is that if there is a God it definitely isn’t the God of the Bible. Of course there is no evidence for an afterlife nor is there for heaven, hell, not to mention angels or Satan or for any of the ridiculous claims made in the Bible.
Bernie keeps thinking I am a Republican. I am not a Republican, I am a Conservative / Independent. I despise the Republican party almost as much as I despise the Democrats. About the only thing I agree with the Republicans on is the abortion issue, and even there they do not take a strong enough stance on the issue. If they believe that life begins at conception, then how can they even suggest that abortion should be allowed. If a government does not protect the rights (the right to life has to be the most basic) of its most defenseless people what good is that government. If the Republicans believe life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. At least they, the Republicans, believe it should be left up to the states as it was before Roe vs. Wade.
Answer: Abortion isn’t murder just because the Republicans believe something. Three Republicans raised their hands during the debates claiming not to believe in evolution, a public confession of idiocy. That’s as stupid an admission as a grown person could make. The idea that we have people that stupid running our country is frightening. This issue is really about forced parenthood. Children should be brought into the world by people who want them, and no one should have parenthood forced on them when they aren’t prepared for it emotionally or financially or aren’t married and there are lots of other reasons. Only Christian fascists think people should have parenthood forced on them. Fascists like Mike.
Mike: ”That is why I feel sorry for him. It must drive him nuts to see Christians go through difficult periods, just as all human beings do, and still remain confident in our Lord.”
Answer: No I realize that Christianity can often be a crutch for weak-minded people. That’s not to say that all Christians are weak-minded or that Christianity is necessarily always a crutch for its adherents.
Yes, and I’v been through some. My faith and my joy in knowing Jesus was strongest in my darkest hour. What does Bernie have in these times I wonder?
Answer: I have myself which is a lot more tangible than what Christians rely on.
”What does Bernie have to look forward to?”
Answer: My life is enjoyable enough that I don’t have to burden myself with false beliefs and wish-thinking the way Christians do. I don’t need to look forward to a better life because unlike Mike, mherman and other fundies my life is very satisfying. And that fact just pushes fundie Christians right to the edge. They just can’t stand that unbelievers are not the miserable people Christians tell us we should be.
Good question. I wonder if he and others like him, with no God and no hope in this world, think of that?
Answer: I don’t have a bunch of false hopes.
”Somewhere in the back of Bernie’s mind he knows that the possibility exists that he is wrong”
Answer: That statement is absolutely false. It reflects just how blinded by religious dogma and lies Christians really are. I’m not the least bit concerned or worried that any Christian superstitions might be true. But every Christians is scared stiff that their beliefs are not true and not only that they’re all scared that they haven’t been indoctrinated quite enough to make it to heaven. Plus they have just as much chance of being sent to the Muslim hell by Allah as anyone else has being sent to the Christian hell. So the best bet is to just ignore all religious claims since all religious claims come from OTHER PEOPLE and nowhere else.
I hope so, atleast with some doubt as to what happens after death, it may lead him to the Truth eventually. I think his bold front…is just that!…but God knows what goes on in his mind.
Answer: So if there is a God who knows what I’m thinking I doubt he would be satisfied with me trying to believe he exists just to keep from being sent to hell. Now since both Mike and mherman have plainly admitted and implied several times that this is the only reason they believe in God, their God won’t be satisfied with that kind of belief and will send them to hell anyway.
It is difficult to put myself in his shoes (I’m size 6 anyway!! ) but if I were Bernie…..I would be just like Bernie. That gives me a great sense of thankfulness that I came to know Jesus Christ and His love for me….but terribly sad that people like him cannot see it. I may have sounded like I was shouting the truth at him sometimes, but telling him how much Jesus loves him came from a deep and sincere yearning in my heart for him to see and understand it!
Answer: The problem is that I already know Jesus Christ never existed and nothing will ever change my mind about that. That fact has been proved to me.
X post 31,
Oh yeah, as if my life is just overflowing with bliss……because I’m a Pagan[snicker].
Why do you think that “Paganism”[whatever you might mean by that label] would be a “fun” religion to practice? As compared to what/who?
And what’s stopping you? Is it the same thing that’s stopping you from being a “Christian”?
Bernie post 33,
“Christianity is the ultimate manifestation of evil, of untruths and the worst human tragedy ever to happen on this planet and the rest of the world now recognizes this.”
Don’t blame “Christianity” Bernie, blame the evil men and women who committed the crimes. You wouldn’t want to sound like Ken Ham who blames the evils of modern and past society[from racism and slavery to abortion and lawlessness]on “Atheistic theory of evolution”, would you?
Humanity is a violent, superficial, and hysterical species sometimes. Theological beliefs are just a convenient tool for too many tyrants too many times to be manipulated for personal/political reasons.
You know that.
Well, when I think of paganism, I usually think of witchcraft, because I’ve known some practicing witches who say they’re “pagan.” I know that not all pagans practice, but thats my usual assumption when I think of pagans.
I don’t know much about
…
witchcraft, but what I’ve heard is pretty interesting. I think it might be fun to practice.
Not believing is in paganism and Christianity and Paganism is really similar and different. I think they are both not a true reflection of how things really are. But I think that Christianity is a lot more sinister than Paganism. I kinda feel like a conversion to Christianity would make me look like I’m being forced to convert to something I don’t really believe in. I think if I “converted” to paganism, it would look like I’m genuinely interested in finding a religion for me.
Proofreading is for losers.
Not believing and Paganism and Christianity is the same in some ways, and different in others.
John: ”Humanity is a violent, superficial, and hysterical species sometimes. Theological beliefs are just a convenient tool for too many tyrants too many times to be manipulated for personal/political reasons.
You know that.”
I agree with you there! Religion, too often, has been the way of subjugating people by fear and intimidation. That is NOT what Jesus Christ came to bring, though many that have owned the label ”Christian” have been the perpetrators of such violence and control. But that is NOT the way of Jesus Christ or His true followers, who live by love, Gods love, and not by hate and fear.
X: ”…witchcraft, but what I’ve heard is pretty interesting. I think it might be fun to practice.”
Witchcraft is neither ”fun” or something to get involved with because it is ”interesting”. It is a dangerous area to enter…..be warned, you are dealing with powerful spirits, and they are not to be trusted. God on the other hand has the power over all spirits that want to usurp their power over His. His is the ultimate power, and the One you really should be ”interested” in.
”But I think that Christianity is a lot more sinister than Paganism.”
How do you work that out? Most of the good that has come in the world is through Christianity. Stop looking at all the negatives that certain groups calling themselves ”Christian” have done and realise that Jesus Christ came to bring peace, love and eternal life to all men. HE is the Ultimate Truth……the Ultimate Reality.
”I kinda feel like a conversion to Christianity would make me look like I’m being forced to convert to something I don’t really believe in.”
No one is forcing you to accept Christ’s love for you, YOU have the freewill to CHOOSE. God never forces His love on anyone, but it’s there if you reach out for it.
” I think if I “converted” to paganism, it would look like I’m genuinely interested in finding a religion for me.”
Again, it all comes down to YOUR choice. But be mindful of where it will lead you eternally.
Do you want ”religion” or do you want the TRUTH?
“Witchcraft is neither ”fun” or something to get involved with because it is ”interesting”. It is a dangerous area to enter…..be warned, you are dealing with powerful spirits, and they are not to be trusted.”
Yeah, I don’t think that thats true.
“God on the other hand has the power over all spirits that want to usurp their power over His. His is the ultimate power, and the One you really should be ”interested” in.”
If this were true, why would the “spirits” even bother?
“How do you work that out? Most of the good that has come in the world is through Christianity.”
Lolno. Some of the good done in the west has come through Christianity. But even then its motivated by perpetuating itself, as opposed to… say… secular humanism, which is motivated by good intentions and a sincere belief that making the lives of others better is the right course for everyone.
“realise that Jesus Christ came to bring peace, love and eternal life to all men. HE is the Ultimate Truth……the Ultimate Reality.”
I came to bring peace and love, but that doesn’t mean everyone’s going to get along. Just like your friend Mr. Jesus.
“No one is forcing you to accept Christ’s love for you, YOU have the freewill to CHOOSE. God never forces His love on anyone, but it’s there if you reach out for it.”
Doesn’t work that way apparently.
“Do you want ”religion” or do you want the TRUTH?”
Preferably both, but I think I’ve already begun to understand the latter, and I find your options are mutually exclusive.
Stop trying to convert me Maz, you’re going to have to come up with something original and undeniably true, which, seeing as no one in the history of the world has come up with an original and undeniably true argument for the existence of God, would make me suggest you not try to convert me.
X: Jesus Christ IS ”undeniably true” and very ”original”, but it’s up to you whether you believe it or not. And I can’t ”convert” you, that is Gods job. But if you don’t want Him then there is nothing more I can say…….which is just what you asked for.
Bernie:” No it’s called appeals to authority, something people do when they cannot defend their own arguments with their own thoughts. You are a prime example of that kind of person.”
I guess all those reference to other works you read in books and journals related to science, math, history….just about every intellectual work is by people who, “cannot defend their own arguments with their own thoughts.” I must admit that every time I believe you cannot possibly utter another absurd statement, you completely surprise me.
Bernie: “the government spends most of the money it borrows WITH the private sector”
Of course it does, but the primary question for an economist is, “Will the money spent lead to economic growth or once the money is spent will the stimulus disappears?” Current stimulus disappears once the projects or the transfer payments are completed. Example: China has put forth over $600 billion in stimulus. Most of the money is going to build small nuclear power plants, highways, and improve rail transportation. They have also expanded the number of airports in the country. All these expenditures will promote economic development just as the Hoover Dam and the TVA promoted economic expansion for decades after their completion in the 30s. We, the US, are stimulating the economy through pork, much of which, once consumed stops stimulated. A dog park is great for dogs but does not add one cent to economic growth once it is finished. Bernie, you know so little about economics it is truly amazing. You are an ideologue that has FAITH in the Social Welfare state and your religion of atheism.
Bernie: “People can become very rich in socialist countries but they must be very industrious because they pay very high taxes.”
Of course there are people that live very well in socialist and even communist societies. They are the power elites. America may be head more towards economic fascism than socialism. I am truly amazed at the number of Americans that disparage capitalism and the once great system that existed here, when they could easily move to the paradise of Cuba or North Korea. I know for a fact that in Cuba everyone is guaranteed a job, health care if free, education at ALL levels is free, housing is provided by the state, etc. I mean Cuba is heaven on earth for socialists. And may I add that there are some in Cuba that live very well.
Bernie: “I have myself which is a lot more tangible than what Christians rely on.”
I’d be worried if I were you.
Bernie: “The problem is that I already know Jesus Christ never existed and nothing will ever change my mind about that. That fact has been proved to me.”
How good are you at wailing and gnashing teeth.
Bernie: “You mean values like making African Americans three-fifths of a person, making slavery legal, denying women the right to vote… those typically conservative values?”
You take the worse part of anything and making seem like the whole. It is like looking at a barrel of apples with 2 or 3 rotten apples and declaring the whole barrel rotten. And you say you are not deranged!
Bernie: “Yes but there was already air warfare in World War I.”
Mitchell was court marshaled for his beliefs and insistence on developing air power. He was also one of the first to predict the attack on Pearl long before it took place. My point was “that just because someone predicts an event and it does not happen the next day does not mean they are to be dismissed as wrong. I could give you more examples of people that predicted events years before they took place. Most successful investors as such people.
Sir John Templeton, from which we get the Templeton funds and the man that pioneered global investing, was such a man…..he was also a devout Christian. He predicted that the DOW would not only break through 1000 but also be above 2000 within the decade of the 80s. He did so with the index below 800. He repeated his prediction during the 87 crash, where many were wondering if we were not headed for another Great Depression. In the early 90s, at the height of the real estate bust and the bankruptcies of many of the savings and loans, he once again said that the DOW would break 10,000 by the end of the decade. The last prediction I heard him make was on the old PBS Louis Rukeyser show, where he suggested buying US real estate when it was selling at a 90% discount to its high water mark. This was early in 2000 or 2001, but apparently this man saw the real estate bust before the bubble was fully inflated. As you can tell, Sir John is one of my heroes. Of course I am sure you will find something in his background to discredit him on…..maybe he picked is nose with his right hand….I am sure you will find something. Deranged people usually do.
Mike: ” Of course I am sure you will find something in his background to discredit him on…..maybe he picked is nose with his right hand….I am sure you will find something. Deranged people usually do.”
Well I’v had my laugh for today with this line!
And how do you prove to a blind man locked in a darkened room that the sun is shining outside! He doesn’t see the light so he believes it doesn’t exist!
Bernie: According to the CBO, of the 12.7 trillion dollars in stimulus, only about $900 billion would actually stimulate the economy. Of that, only $190 billion of the $900 would go to infrastructure. In a $14 trillion economy, $190 billion is NOTHING. For this the US will double its $10.5 trillion debt to over $20 trillion within the coming decade. If inflation becomes a problems interest rates will rise just as they did in the 70s and early 80s. If they get anywhere near what they were in 1981, the interest on the debt will be over $2.5 trillion, which exceeds total tax revenues. THESE ARE THE FACTS….FACTS Bernie Bud….NOT OPINIONS….FACTS.
The spending / bailout packages, which contain thousands of pages, have not been read. They have all been passed because “if they weren’t passed we faced financial Armaggedon.” I fault both the Bush administration and the current Obama administration for leading this nation down a path which will inflict serious pain on the American People. Like most great civilizations, we are destroying ourselves.
mherman: “And how do you prove to a blind man locked in a darkened room that the sun is shining outside! He doesn’t see the light so he believes it doesn’t exist!”
I guess it goes along with “there is none so blind as he who will not see.” I’ve known blind people that see quite well….better than those that do see. Darkness is the absence of light.
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. Unfortunately there are those deranged people….you know who you are, that go around TRYING TO blow out all the candles we light. So far the light continues to shine brightly, even if we are seeing it dim from the eyes of our respective nation.
If god exists, and its his job to convert me, then you have nothing to worry about. But, I don’t think he does. Thus, we remain at stalemate. Me unconvinced, and you unable to do anything about it. (You being: basically everyone)
X: “If god exists, and its his job to convert me, then you have nothing to worry about.” I think your premise is incorrect. He, God, does not wish than any should perish but if that is your choice then so be it. God is a gentlemen and will not bring you or anyone else into His presence screaming and kicking.
I’m not kicking or screaming. I’m more than willing. I’ve been actively pursuing.
X, I still have no real understanding of what you mean specifically by your use of the word “Witchcraft”/”Witch”/Pagan”. It’s just too much of an umbrella term. To help you get a better understanding of what IIIII mean by my uses of these words when describing myself, read the site titled “Understanding the World of Wicca and More…” listed under “Apologetics” March 26th, 2008, unless you have already read it. And we do not convert.
I, for one, think you will get there, X. God is obviously calling you. You just haven’t set your tuner to the right station, so to speak. One of two things will happen. 1) Something will happen in your spiritual life that makes it obvious to you, and you will wonder what took you so long. 2) Something will happen in your earthly life to make you realize you need God more than you need what you think of now as “proof”.
Of course, there is a third possibility, that option 2 will occur but instead you will NOT lean on God, but I don’t think so. Not a seeker such as yourself.
X: We live in such a perfectly ordered universe that even human behavior follows specific mathematical patterns. Long before Fisher, Armstrong, Prechter, Kondradieff and so many others wrote about cycles, Solomon did just that in the Book of Eccl. 1-3.
If the cycles work of Armstrong and Fields is correct, then we should see the first signs of the of s US dollar crisis around the first week of November, certainly before Thanksgiving.
The calls for the establishment of a new reserve currency are growing louder. I expect whatever is chosen to consist of a basket of currencies which will include both the US dollar and gold. Unlike the Zimbabwe dollar, the USD will not go to zero but it will be severely devalued. At some point a substitute currency will be imposed on the American people.
Mike, I am begging you. Please stop turning every conversation into a prediction of the crash of the American dollar. You have made your point. There are other topics worthy of debate, even if you are correct and the dollar is going to be worthless.
@ John Most of the pagans I know are Pantheists, but I did know some Wiccans. I think most of the pagans I knew started out as Wiccan, but then moved into Pantheism. I used to think I was Pantheist, but I was wrong.
X: ”If god exists, and its his job to convert me, then you have nothing to worry about.”
God (with a big ‘G’) exists, but He doesn’t do everything…..we have to do something…seek, ask, desire, want to know HIM. Then He reveals His Truth to us, we have to accept it and believe it. It is a spiritual thing….not done with the head…or the brain….but with the heart. That DOES NOT mean we have to be mindless and unthinking. But head knowledge of God is not enough to have a personal relationship with Him. Ofcourse, I have nothing to worry about……but YOU certainly do. Make very sure your atheistic brain isn’t deceiving your heart.
X:” I’m not kicking or screaming. I’m more than willing. I’ve been actively pursuing.”
Really? Then you should have caught His attention by now. Didn’t you tell me earlier ”Stop trying to convert me Maz”. Does that sound like someone who REALLY wants to know God?
Kash:” Mike, I am begging you. Please stop turning every conversation into a prediction of the crash of the American dollar. You have made your point. There are other topics worthy of debate, even if you are correct and the dollar is going to be worthless.”
I wasn’t going to comment about it, but you have said what I’v been thinking!! Mike sees dollar signs in every topic!!
kash: “Mike, I am begging you. Please stop turning every conversation into a prediction of the crash of the American dollar. ”
Sorry kash, no can do. One other thing, the dollar, hopefully…prayerfully, will not crash in a sudden violent action. Such an event would be the financial equivalent of a nuclear holocaust.
My point which was made specifically for Bernie and generally for everyone else is that these events, while unthinkable to most at the time, are predictable. Notice how I refer constantly to “God’s perfectly ordered universe.” In addition, there are few things abominable to the Lord….very few things. It is interesting that one of them, along with murder, is diverse weights and measures. God even takes the time to mention this particular abomination at least 4 times in the Bible. There is no doubt that the US dollar is a DIVERSE MEASURE. Yet I would venture that less than 5% of Christians see the absolute evil in our monetary system.
We love to preach the holiness of God and some will even speak of His wrath; but when it comes to the practical matter of our own lives and what we have accepted as truth, we dismiss it with, “it won’t happen here, or God will protect His children or the Rapture is near and this is just a sign of the Lord’s coming.”
I have provided a specific time span in the very near future. BEFORE THANKSGIVING OF 2009 for the beginning of the end of the US dollar made apparent to all. NOT a sudden crash, the crash has been taking place for over 2 decades. You do not take down the world’s reserve currency overnight. That said the move by many nations to get out of the dollar is picking up steam. We Americans believe that somehow we are special and are deserving of being supported by the savings of the rest of the world. Christians take it a step further by believing that God’s protective hand still rests on our nation. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have kicked God out of our schools and out of the nations public institutions, and still ask God to Bless America. We spit on His laws (abortion, a fraudulent monetary system that funds murderous tyrannies and war just to name the two big ones) then call on his mercies and assistance in times of crisis like 9-11.
I AM NO PROPHET. I DO NOT CLAIM TO HAVE DIRECT ACCESS TO GOD. But in many respects I feel like the OT prophets whose warning were rejected. I am sure there were some in Jerusalem and the Northern Kingdom that said, “……..I am begging you. Please stop turning every conversation into a prediction of …..”
You my dear kash, do not have a clue of what it will mean to you, your children, grandchildren, neighbors, etc for the dollar to break below 72 on the USDX. As of this moment the mighty dollar is at 80.06 so another 8.3 points down and 72 is gone. The last time we were at 72 gasoline was $4, natural gas at $14, and food prices were soaring. The near global meltdown causing a recession in the West, has stemmed the tide as the rush to deleverage led to a rush on the dollar and a severe contraction in demand for natural resources. While some prices have come down most remain elevated and oil and gasoline are beginning to pick back up. At least in those days were still at near full employment and the economy was still considered healthy (in truth it hasn’t been healthy for the past 20 years.)
With unemployment now reaching depression levels, what do you think will be the impact on the American people, Christians will suffer the pain right along with their non-Christian neighbors, when serious inflation rears its ugly head again? Increasing homelessness is now being seen among FAMILIES. Reports by people that follow these things indicate that people are now cutting back on medicine. What will this winter bring if natural gas just retraces its previous decline by 50% and oil remains above $60?
I AM NOT WITH THE “LET’S JUST TALK JESUS” crowd. I am not one of the three chimps of “See No evil, Hear no evil, Speak no evil. I find it absolutely amazing that so many Christians do not want to deal with the coming catastrophe. In that respect they are no different from the secular world. I thought we were to be salt and light. The Bible is more than a book that “speaks to our hearts.” It gives us a clear guideline for living. A nation blessed by God as the US has been is in serious trouble when it disobeys Him.
You say you are a veterinarian. I am sure you have been reading of more and more people abandoning their pets. Last week I took in a beautiful 11 year old golden retriever. It had been wandering around the neighborhood and some of us fed it while trying to find its owner. A few days ago I came across a couple that were wanting to adopt a Golden and I suggested the one I had taken in. They took it to a vet and discovered it had a chip. They found the owner and the owner did not want the dog. The little Pekingese I now have was an abandoned pet. Little Jazz’s story is almost identical to the Golden’s. Abandoned pets is becoming a real problem in our neck of the woods and there have been 2 local TV news spots on this issue.
What we are witnessing is the final stages of a declining fiat currency. It is John Law all over again. His funny money created a bubble that led to an incredible perceived prosperity in France. In the end, the whole system collapsed culminating with the French Revolution and the agony that nation went through.
I know in my heart of hearts what is coming…. what is already here. Regardless of the evidence, much of which I draw from the Bible itself, you do not believe it. Bernie doesn’t believe it regardless of the secular evidence I present. You, like so many others seem to of the frame of mind that what will be will be. You seem to continue to trust those that have brought about the crisis to do their magic and solve the problem. You have defended fiat currency by proclaiming all the prosperity it has brought. You are more blind than Bernie for you say you believe the Bible, yet dismiss what it says about diverse weights and measures, what it says we are to do as good stewards of all God has given us.
What we are witnessing is an event never before experienced in human history, the death of the world’s reserve currency at a time when NO COUNTRY has a currency backed by gold, which is why I have no idea how this is going to play out on a global scale. It will have negative repercussions, no doubt about that, but the exact end game is anyone’s guess. I do know that it has the potential to be a devastating blow to the US and our way of life.
So in light of what I believe, you say, “stop talking about it.” You sound like my older sister. Before 2007, she countered my arguments about the coming economic collapse….the recession that now looks more like a depression, by saying, “it can’t happen here….the US has always had a large debt, etc.” Now that phase 1 of the economic collapse is underway, her statements to me every time I urge her to insure her financial assets is, “I just don’t want to hear about it. This is the US and nothing of the sorts will happen here.”
All I am suggesting is that she and her family set aside 20% of their net worth in gold and silver. It does not have to be done all at once and as a matter of fact should have been done periodically (one a month or once a quarter) on a regular basis since 2002. In stead of exchanging their worthless paper money for real money (gold and silver) my beloved sister and her husband purchased some investment real estate in 2005. They followed the herd and bought real estate at the height of the bubble, just like Bernie and his family did at the height of the Gold bubble at the end of 1979, just as so many Americans did in 1998 when they put their money into tech stocks, just as so many will do this time when gold and silver soar to unbelievable heights the herd will rush in at the top.
Of the two emotions, fear and greed, that drive investor decisions, fear is the most powerful. When the US dollar begins to break supports, which I believe will be towards the end of this year, the fear will drive people into the two assets that are no ones liability, gold and silver. The problems these people MAY encounter might just very well be supply. In 1980 there were between 3 and 4 billion people on the planet and most of those folks lived in squalor. This time there are 6.5 billion and many of those have moved into the prosperity of the modern world. Gold production is down which means all the easy gold has been found and mined. Like oil, we may be at peak gold. Just like people on the Titanic headed for the life boats and found there were not enough to go around, this time there may not be enough gold and silver to go around…..not in a global inflation. Remember, every currency is a derivative of the US dollar. If the dollar goes so do the other currencies, especially those most closely tied to the USD. China, Russia, Brazil, India, and others are beginning to look for the exits. Let’s hope it is not a mad rush.
And you want me to go silent on this issue. It proves to me kash, that you do not have a clue.
Mike: ”I have provided a specific time span in the very near future. BEFORE THANKSGIVING OF 2009 for the beginning of the end of the US dollar made apparent to all.”
You said it…..now we will see if you are right.
I went to my bank today and I am getting a higher rate of interest than last month on my new account. It’s going up at the moment.
”I AM NO PROPHET. I DO NOT CLAIM TO HAVE DIRECT ACCESS TO GOD”
You may not be a Prophet but the Bible tells us we have access to God through Jesus Christ….that is fairly direct in my book. And we can all speak for God sometimes, even when we don’t know He is using us.
And when we talk about future calamities it does’nt just revolve around money Mike, everything will be shaken that can be shaken, but if we stand on our faith in God, that cannot be shaken! Let’s be ready for what lies ahead; but just having our minds on one aspect of life…..our cash/gold….is not what matters to God. Are we ready SPIRITUALLY for what is ahead? Are our lamps burning?!
Mike: ”And you want me to go silent on this issue. It proves to me kash, that you do not have a clue”.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think Kash wants you to go ‘’silent” on it….just don’t go on about it in every thread!
“Really? Then you should have caught His attention by now. Didn’t you tell me earlier ”Stop trying to convert me Maz”. Does that sound like someone who REALLY wants to know God?”
I want you to stop trying, because your arguments are not convincing. All of your logic is circular. I grow tired of it.
mherman: “I may be wrong, but I don’t think Kash wants you to go ‘’silent” on it….just don’t go on about it in every thread!
”
I don’t go on it on EVERY thread. I do use the Bible and evidence of God’s perfect universe on every thread but I do not just talk about the US dollar. kash made the same statement. Recall my vigorous defense of the Bible and the evidence for Jesus Christ being the Son of God….the God man come to earth to redeem us.
When I said, “I AM NO PROPHET. I DO NOT CLAIM TO HAVE DIRECT ACCESS TO GOD” I meant that God does not speak to me as He did Moses. I read His word, take Him at His word, and pray to verbally communicate my thoughts and desires…always realizing that it is His will that must be done, not mine.
Bernie scoffs at the predictions made by Christians. It is my guess that he is referring to those that keep predicting the Rapture. I’ve stated before, the rapture predictors….those that believe we are now living in the end times, do more damage to Christ’s church than just about anyone else. The Rapture makes a joke of Jesus Christ and Christians. It does so much harm I cannot believe it is Christians themselves that inflict so much damage on the Church. Even if Christians believe in the whole notion of the rapture, Christ is emphatic that we are to occupy til he comes. We are NOT TO TRY TO GUESS HIS COMING, which I do believe in. But this is an issue we have discussed before.
kash: “You said it…..now we will see if you are right.” Yes, I have gone out on a limb as I am predicting something that cannot be predicted. I am basing my prophetic statement on cycles, which have been studied by men much more knowledgable than me. My area of expertise is technical analysis, with a strong dose of fundamentals thrown in to verify the technicals.
What you find most interesting is that I PRAY I AM WRONG. I actually ask God to intervene and let the US dollar drop as I fear it will drop as we begin the new decade. I am sure if the US dollar crisis takes place on say January 15th, 2010 instead of before Thanksgiving 2009, Bernie will make an issue of it. Personally, I really do not care what Bernie says. I know that the US dollar decline into its various support levels (82- already broken, 72, 62, and 52) is assured and will take place over the next 5 years.
X: IN other words you want to be CONVINCED that God exists…..that doesn’t need faith.
Mike: ”I don’t go on it on EVERY thread”….maybe not, it just seems that way.
” I meant that God does not speak to me as He did Moses.”
Moses was just a man like you, if you had lived then, God may have chosen you! But we have a better relationship with God now through Jesus Christ, so in some sense He speaks to us far more, altho perhaps not out of a burning bush! But some people that live today have heard the audible voice of God.
”….. I’ve stated before, the rapture predictors….those that believe we are now living in the end times, do more damage to Christ’s church than just about anyone else. The Rapture makes a joke of Jesus Christ and Christians.”
I believe Jesus Christ is coming for His Church…..His Bride…very soon, what damage does that do to the Church? If you are wrong, you will be left behind. The Rapture is not a joke, it is the hope of all those who believe what the Bible says about His Coming for His people in the air. There are far more Christians making a joke of the Church…..like thinking they can live any way they like and deny Gods Word.
”Christ is emphatic that we are to occupy til he comes. We are NOT TO TRY TO GUESS HIS COMING, which I do believe in. But this is an issue we have discussed before.”
I agree! So what am I doing wrong? He IS coming!
”What you find most interesting is that I PRAY I AM WRONG”
Why? If you are so sure you are right? I certainly don’t pray I am wrong…..I really do believe Jesus is coming back in the clouds and we will be caught up to meet Him there and taken Home…..as Thessalonians tells us. He often warned us to be ready for His coming…..so I am!
Sure. I’m trying to figure out if anyone can convince me.
X: Let me put it this way…..if we can’t convince you in this life…..you certainly will be in the next. We just don’t want you to find out then…..because it will be too late!
mherman: “I believe Jesus Christ is coming for His Church…..His Bride…very soon, what damage does that do to the Church?” None. I also believe He is coming…the second and final coming; not the second to be followed by a third coming where the believers are raptured out and non-believers are left to suffer a sort of hell on earth. What harm did Hal Lindsey do with, THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH? He said, Christ would return in 1988. His book was a big seller. He made a fortune on it. He was wrong. Is Hal gone from the scene? No he is as active as ever with more predictions. Then there is the Left Behind crowd. Just look at all the ministries that have grown up and bilked hundred of thousands if not millions with their “the rapture is coming soon” garbage. This is the ideology that makes a mockery of the Church.
mherman: “So what am I doing wrong? ” Nothing.
mherman: “Why? If you are so sure you are right? I certainly don’t pray I am wrong…..” If I am right the people in my nation are going to suffer and suffer bitterly. My Christian brothers and sister will suffer as will my church and its ministries. Missionaries will be force to come home as the value of the US dollar declines. I would rather be made the fool than see all that I love suffer. I won’t suffer, at least not much. I will likely prosper as I have insured my assets by diversifying out of the USD. Gold and silver are my lifelines. Once the inflation morphs into hyperinflation, prices will soar, except in relation to gold they will plummet. Before a new currency is introduced, I will be able to buy assets for next to nothing, but only because I insured my lifetime’s worth of work by putting my faith in what God provide for us to use as money. Man’s money is cursed and soon everyone will come to realize it. I know in my heart of hearts that I am right. The Bible says that God will not be mocked and we, His children have mocked him. We have accepted the Traditions of men and nullified His word. Credit and all the idols it provides, the big home, the big new car, the fancy vacations, the meals out, fine clothes, etc. now provide us with the joy of living….a joy that should have been reserved for our relationship with our Lord, not the stuff we have accumulated. It is absolutely amazing that people in the US not only doubled the sizes of their homes while reducing the number of children, but we have had to rent storage buildings to put all the extra junk we bought on easy credit. I would venture than more than just a few of those people with big houses and rented storage space are Christians.
Mike,
I guess all those reference to other works you read in books and journals related to science, math, history….just about every intellectual work is by people who, “cannot defend their own arguments with their own thoughts.” I must admit that every time I believe you cannot possibly utter another absurd statement, you completely surprise me.
Answer: Just about everything that you post that isn’t cut from somewhere else and pasted here is some form of a personal attack or sky is falling prediction.
Bernie, you know so little about economics it is truly amazing. You are an ideologue that has FAITH in the Social Welfare state and your religion of atheism.
Answer: I already said that I hold to no ideology and am a member of no religion. I have no FAITH in politics or religion of any kind including the idea that a Welfare state would be beneficial let alone feasible. Also your desperate and ridiculous claim that atheism is a religion has already been soundly refuted. You have no grounds to make such a claim or to even claim I’m an atheist. Again you accuse me of holding positions that I do not hold and then attack those positions – the old straw man.
Of course there are people that live very well in socialist and even communist societies. They are the power elites. America may be head more towards economic fascism than socialism. I am truly amazed at the number of Americans that disparage capitalism and the once great system that existed here, when they could easily move to the paradise of Cuba or North Korea.
Answer: This is just more proof you don’t know what you are talking about. Fascism and socialism are not economic systems, they’re political systems. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. I doubt a first year economic student anywhere could make a blunder like that! But Mike can.
Bernie: “I have myself which is a lot more tangible than what Christians rely on.”
I’d be worried if I were you.
Answer: No, if you were I you wouldn’t be worried because you would know what I know. But you don’t so you can’t comprehend why I’m not worried. Your worldview has narrowed your mind to the point where other worldviews simply cannot be understood.
How good are you at wailing and gnashing teeth.
Answer: How good are you at telling fictive narratives from historical narratives, truth from religious dogma or fairy tales from facts? Not nearly as good as I am.
You take the worse part of anything and making seem like the whole. It is like looking at a barrel of apples with 2 or 3 rotten apples and declaring the whole barrel rotten. And you say you are not deranged!
Answer: No I just criticized the conservative values in the Constitution, not the good ones.
Mitchell was court marshaled for his beliefs and insistence on developing air power. He was also one of the first to predict the attack on Pearl long before it took place.
Answer: Billy Mitchell was court marshaled for accusing senior leaders in the Army and Navy of incompetence and “almost treasonable administration of the national defense.” It’s religion and religious people that punish people for their beliefs, not the military.
My point was “that just because someone predicts an event and it does not happen the next day does not mean they are to be dismissed as wrong. I could give you more examples of people that predicted events years before they took place. Most successful investors as such people.
Answer: So what? There are many more examples of people making predictions about things that never happened including all the failed prophecies in the Bible of course.
As you can tell, Sir John is one of my heroes. Of course I am sure you will find something in his background to discredit him on…..maybe he picked is nose with his right hand….I am sure you will find something. Deranged people usually do.
Answer: I can think of some better candidates for hero-worship.
The spending / bailout packages, which contain thousands of pages, have not been read.
Answer: Sure. Someone had to write these things they didn’t just pop into existence. The people who vote on these bills don’t read them unless they actually write them. The people who work for the people who vote on them read them, send them back with comments and suggestions, threats and compromises and they go around in circles, get unrelated things tacked onto them and when everybody’s done the bill is voted on. That’s how things work in D.C.
They have all been passed because “if they weren’t passed we faced financial Armaggedon.” I fault both the Bush administration and the current Obama administration for leading this nation down a path which will inflict serious pain on the American People. Like most great civilizations, we are destroying ourselves.
Answer: We aren’t on some “path” can’t get off of. We were on a path that was inflicting serious pain on some Americans with the potential to get much worse so we got off that path and took another. Should this be a path to nowhere then once again we will change course.
Mike:” Lindsey do with, THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH? He said, Christ would return in 1988.”
I read that book and can’t remember him actually giving a date.
” “the rapture is coming soon” garbage.”
It IS coming soon…..why are you so sure it is going to be sometime in the distant future? And the coming of Jesus for His Church is not ”garbage”!
Certainly I am not impressed with the ”Left Behind” books or some of the things put out by Christians that believe in the Rapture, but that does not negate my belief that Jesus IS coming soon….for me!
” I won’t suffer, at least not much. I will likely prosper as I have insured my assets by diversifying out of the USD. Gold and silver are my lifelines.”
Well there is the truth in one sentence…..you are putting your trust in your riches, I, on the other hand, put my trust in God ALONE. We have to be ready for what is to come, but not by storing up gold and silver, but by getting close to the Lord and being filled with His Spirit and trusting in His Grace.
If Jesus is not your ”life-line” then you WILL suffer even with all your gold and silver…..what of those who don’t believe in Jesus, will they ”not suffer” with you because they have stored up their treasures on earth? I think not. The shaking and the troubles coming on the earth are judgements against unrighteousness, if we have faith in Christ, He will take us out before judgement falls. This has been Gods pattern all down through the ages…..take out those who trust in Him and then judgement falls.
” Man’s money is cursed and soon everyone will come to realize it.”
And that includes your gold and silver Mike…don’t you realise that.
”The Bible says that God will not be mocked and we, His children have mocked him. We have accepted the Traditions of men and nullified His word”
What Traditions are you speaking of?
”Credit and all the idols it provides, the big home, the big new car, the fancy vacations, the meals out, fine clothes, etc. now provide us with the joy of living….a joy that should have been reserved for our relationship with our Lord, not the stuff we have accumulated.”
That’s exactly it! Our RELATIONSHIP with our Lord is far more important that money! And I have never had a credit card, will never use one! I pay cash for everything…..my motto is, if you havn’t got the money, don’t buy it!
You are probably talking more about American Christians, and I agree with you about their frivolous use of money, and no doubt there are those in Britain that do that too….but not ALL.
mherman: “It IS coming soon…..why are you so sure it is going to be sometime in the distant future? And the coming of Jesus for His Church is not ”garbage”!’
We’ve been down this route before. I DO BELIEVE JESUS WILL RETURN. When? I don’t know. It could be as I type the next letter in this response or it could be 1000 years from now. What I believe is PURE GARBAGE IS THE PRETRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. Matthew 24 deals with Jesus return in judgment on those who rejected Him. Revelation is a letter to the churches of Asia Minor that were at the heart of Cesar worship and were suffering persecution. It is also the completion of the Bible as paradise lost (Gen.) becomes paradise restored. The body of believers is identified as the True Church of Israel, in contrast to apostate Israel, and those that accept Christ. Eze. 37 and 38 is not about a distant future battle of Armaggedon but a near coming battle where God would save His people living in unwalled cities. That description fits the Book of Ester perfectly.
I began doubting the Pretrib Rapture nearly a decade ago. Hank Hannigraff’s book, The Apocalypse Code is a must read. Then compare it to the nonsense promoted by so many in the Church.
Hal Lindsey did indeed give a date, and he continues to be popular. He has a web site where he promotes the Pretrib. Rapture and continues to make is failed predictions. As a matter of fact he has numerous books on the subject. Just go to http://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Code-Hal-Lindsey/dp/1888848219 and you will see his list. Now the reviews by readers are glowing but I am suspicious that these were provided by people that already believed in the Rapture and are not going to be convinced otherwise. Either that or they were plants. Just a note; I have read numerous books on investing, finance, and economics and it is rare that you get numerous 100% glowing 5 star reviews. In my opinion, the Pretrib. Rapture has achieved cult like status. I have even been told by at least one Christian that you cannot be a believer if you reject the Ideology.
mherman: “Well there is the truth in one sentence…..you are putting your trust in your riches, I, on the other hand, put my trust in God ALONE. We have to be ready for what is to come, but not by storing up gold and silver, but by getting close to the Lord and being filled with His Spirit and trusting in His Grace.”
You could not be more WRONG. By trusting in man’s money (fiat currency) you are trusting in man and not the Lord. He states so clearly how He feels about “diverse weights and diverse measure, both alike are an ABOMINATION unto the Lord.” Ps.20: 10, 23 You will also find similar passages in Deu. and Lev. What you are doing is expecting God to save you from the wrath to come even though the Bible states that the righteous will suffer with the unrighteous. You reject the first 3 chapters of Eccl. where Solomon writes of “a time for every season.” He is not talking about the weather. I look at everything…EVERYTHING through the lens of scripture. Therefore, when the Bible says, “The prudent man forseeth the evil and hideth himself while the simple pass on and are punished.” I take the Bible at its word. I foreeth the evil and as a good steward I manage all that God has given me FOR HIS GLORY NOT MINE.
If I am right and I pray I am wrong about the coming economic crisis, I will be in a position to help my church, my brothers and sisters in Christ, my family, and my fellow man. A person who is financially destitute cannot help anyone. Tell me what is so wonderful about seeing years of accumulated wealth go down the drain as the financial engineers of economic mass destruction walk off with 100s of Billions if not Trillions of dollars in their greedy pockets. What happens to our missionaries and who will support them if congregations are wiped out financially.
If you want to martyr yourself do it for a just cause like spreading the Gospel in a Muslim country. For heaven’s sake do not suffer because a handful of bankers decided to print gobs of money, and being the first to use the newly printed money they benefited from its creation.
mherman: “Our RELATIONSHIP with our Lord is far more important that money! ” Then be obedient. Read His word and believe. What you and most people call money is NOT MONEY. It is a claim on assets….it is a debt obligation created by our Central Bank and used by government to enslave. I love you mherman as I love all of my brothers and sisters, but you do not have a clue about how the central banks work and the evil that is now upon us. You will see this evil grow and ruin lives in your country as well as mine. As a poverty stricken citizen, how will you be able to help the poor? How will you be able to support your church? How will you be able to support missions? How will you be able to help the poor?
mherman: “What Traditions are you speaking of? ” Go to Doug Tjaden’s web site:
http://www.traditionsofmen.org/
1. We have come to accept man’s currency as good, even though the Bible condemns it.
2. Most Christians (my guess is well over 90%) have used debt to meet their needs. In doing so;
they ignore what the Bible says about debt
they are unequally yoked to the creditor
they are then serving two masters
their servant role to the Lord is then shared with the Lender.
I have had Christians actually tell me, “How are you going to buy a house without a bank loan?” My answer is, the Bible does not say that the debtor is slave to the lender but not if the debtor is buying a house. I’ve heard preachers say, “The church needs to expand to add a new wing or build a new building so we must borrow $XXXX amount of money?” There was a time, not too long ago, where most Americans rented their homes. Those that owned homes generally had little or now debt. With the creation of “easy credit”, made possible by FDR’s legislation in the 1930s, more people were able to purchase their own homes but the prices of homes also went up. But the point is WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. I’ve given you a list on another board on how we Christians have disobeyed God and accepted the Traditions of men. If you do not understand what I am talking about, then read your Bible regarding DEBT, DIVERSE WEIGHTS AND MEASURE, and IDOLS. Then look at what God’s children have done and what they believe.
mherman: “ou are probably talking more about American Christians, and I agree with you about their frivolous use of money, and no doubt there are those in Britain that do that too….but not ALL.”
Not everyone in Israel had rejected what God had told them, but the nation went into captivity.
Not everyone is Judah was an apostate Jew, but they went into captivity.
mherman, maybe not ALL but MOST.
mherman: “And that includes your gold and silver Mike…don’t you realise that.” Gold and silver are inanimate objects. Right? Who created them? If Gold and Silver are cursed then you are saying that part of God’s creation is cursed. I thought that when God had finished His work He saw all He had made and called it GOOD. Was God a liar?
My statement, ” Man’s money is cursed and soon everyone will come to realize it,” does not conflict at all with the Bible. The Bible does not say man is inherently GOOD; it says man is inherently EVIL.
mherman, you do not have a clue as to how man’s money is by its existence evil. I do not doubt that gold and silver can be used for evil purposes, but they themselves are not evil by their existence. A tree can be cut down to build a house or it can be turned into a club to kill another human being. The tree is not evil, it is how man uses it. A pornographic picture is EVIL by its very nature because it violates the word of God. Man’s money violates the word of God and therefore is EVIL by its very nature.
Again I say, I look at the world through the lens of scripture.
This is from Doug’s home page at his web site:
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ:
The world we live in today is changing at a pace which has not been seen for decades. The catalyst for this change is the economic turmoil which originated in the United States and has spread throughout the world. Sadly, the turmoil is just beginning. It is the result of the “traditions of men” (Mark 7:9-13) which have corrupted our monetary system, allowing the powerful to exploit the weak and the greedy to prey on the poor. It is time for Christians to stand for the truth contained in God’s word and bring this abomination to an end.
This ministry’s calling is three fold:
Help you understand why the economy is in such turmoil through the teaching of applicable biblical principles. This is where to begin if you are new to the ministry.
Provide tools and counsel that will help you move through this time of change. This includes financial stewardship and practical suggestions on how to prepare for and live during “hard times.”
Organize the Christian community to put an end to the bondage, human suffering and tyranny enabled by this abomination before God.
We invite you to join us, as we seek to glorify God by returning to the honest weights and measures that in His word, He commanded that we use. By doing so, we will provide a platform from which future generations can prosper in freedom to serve Christ!
mherman, I urge you to go to his website and review his brief videos. My guess is that your central bank is similar in structure to the Federal Reserve here in the States. You may want to view the video Fiat Empire as it gives you a brief history of the Federal Reserve. After educating yourself on the topic of real money vs. fiat money I do believe that you will begin to see where I am coming from. BTW, I come from a Biblical Worldview.
The problem most Christians have understanding the evils of our monetary system is that they have been deceived by the traditions of men.
Bernie: “This is just more proof you don’t know what you are talking about. Fascism and socialism are not economic systems…..”
I guess Bernie is right and EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG.
From Wikipedia:
Fascism, pronounced /?fæ??z?m/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology[1][2][3][4] and a corporatist economic ideology. [5]
“…………In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a “Third Way” in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism.[12][13] This was to be achieved by a form of government control over business and labour (called “the corporate state” by Mussolini).[14][15"
"Socialism refers to any one of various theories of economic organization advocating public or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities/means for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation.[1] ”
From your own mouth Bernie: “I doubt a first year economic student anywhere could make a blunder like that!”
It seems that it is Bernie that does not know what he is talking about….but that should surprise no one, for “the fool has said in his heart their is no God.”
Bernie: “Just about everything that you post that isn’t cut from somewhere else and pasted here is some form of a personal attack or sky is falling prediction.”
What personal attacks? If I call a fool a fool, that is not a personal attack; I am merely stating the truth.
Bernie: “Just about everything that you post that isn’t cut from somewhere else and pasted here is some form of a personal attack or sky is falling prediction.”
I’ve made my predictions and some are occurring just as I said. The economy is getting worse while prices are rising. I called for a hyperinflationary depression and that is exactly where it looks like we are headed. As I write the US dollar is back under 80 and gold is at $940. Once gold breaks through $960 it will have a shot clear shot at $1000.
I also predicted the market bottom in early March. Said it was a tradeable rally. And back in June said the rally had run out of gas, time to get back out. While I do not expect the market to drop like a stone during the summer, the risks are rising that it will by late summer to early fall.
I’ve made my predictions regarding the US dollar and I expect a devaluation by Thanksgiving. To be precise, which no one can be, it is likely to start on or before the first week in November, 2009.
I do know that while we will likely get a bump up in the economy, starting late in the 3rd Q or 4Q of 2009, said bump will only last 6 to 9 months, give or take a few months. 2010 will see more pain inflicted on the American people as prices continue their upward trajectory and the cost of everyday goods and service puts a pinch on our budgets. This winter is going to be brutal for the USD.
Bernie, you dismiss my previous predictions and ridicule predictions I have made before the time span needed for the process to emerge to even take place. Of course, deranged people often respond this way.
Bernie: “How good are you at telling fictive narratives from historical narratives, truth from religious dogma or fairy tales from facts? Not nearly as good as I am.” Delusional people are firmly grounded in their delusions.
Bernie: “Billy Mitchell was court marshaled for accusing senior leaders in the Army and Navy of incompetence and “almost treasonable administration of the national defense.” No comment on his vision of the next war? My point was that Billy Mitchell made his predictions nearly 20 years before they came true. You would have dismissed him as a hack by 1925.
More on Billy Mitchell from Wikipedia:
“Mitchell did not share in the common belief that World War I would be the war to end all wars. “If a nation ambitious for universal conquest gets off to a flying start in a war of the future,” he said, “it may be able to control the whole world more easily than a nation has controlled a continent in the past.
In 1922 Mitchell met the like-minded Italian air power theorist Giulio Douhet on a visit to Europe and soon afterwards an excerpted translation of Douhet’s The Command of the Air began to circulate in the Air Service. In 1924, Mitchell’s superiors sent him to Hawaii, then Asia, to get him off the front pages. Mitchell came back with a 324-page report that predicted future war with Japan, including the attack on Pearl Harbor. His report, published in 1925 as the book Winged Defense, foretold wider benefits of an investment in air power:
Those interested in the future of the country, not only from a national defense standpoint but from a civil, commercial and economic one as well, should study this matter carefully, because air power has not only come to stay but is, and will be, a dominating factor in the world’s development.[15]”
Bernie, were any of your relatives at the highest ranks of the military during the 1920s. I am curious because, it was those individuals that considered Mitchell a hack. Of course after 1941 he was proven right.
“Mitchell’s concept of a battleship’s vulnerability to air attack under “war-time conditions” would be vindicated after his death; a number of warships were sunk by air attack alone during World War II. The battleships Conte di Cavour, Arizona, Utah, Oklahoma, Prince of Wales, Roma, Musashi, Tirpitz, Yamato, Schleswig-Holstein, Impero, Limnos, Kilkis, Ise and Hy?ga were all put out of commission or destroyed by aerial attack including bombs, air-dropped torpedoes and missiles fired from aircraft. Some of these ships were destroyed by surprise attacks in harbor, others were sunk at sea after vigorous defense. Most of the sinkings were carried out by aircraft carrier-based planes, not by land-based bombers as envisioned by Mitchell. The world’s navies had responded quickly to the Ostfriesland lesson.”
“In 1946, Mitchell was posthumously awarded the Congressional Gold Medal, “in recognition of his outstanding pioneer service and foresight in the field of American military aviation.”
Conclusion: You have already proven that you know nothing….as in zero, zip, nada about economics. Your statements about Fascism and Socialism PROVE IT….absolute proof from your own mouth…make that keyboard that you, like Sgt. Schultz of Hogan’s Heros, KNOWS NOTHING.
By the way, please note that economics is mentioned in the FIRST sentence regarding the definitions of Socialism and Fascism.
Bernie, you do not have a clue as to how things work in DC. You must get your information from one of those old civics book that describe how a bill becomes a law. That is the extent of your knowledge.
Bernie: “Answer: Sure. Someone had to write these things they didn’t just pop into existence. The people who vote on these bills don’t read them unless they actually write them. The people who work for the people who vote on them read them, send them back with comments and suggestions, threats and compromises and they go around in circles, get unrelated things tacked onto them and when everybody’s done the bill is voted on. That’s how things work in D.C.”
Then why pray tell are all those lobbyist doing on Capitol Hill. Do you think those lobbyist and special interest groups only talk to Congressmen and Senators. Do you really believe that it is the staffs under the guidance of the Senator or Congressman that write all the bills. You cannot consider yourself a knowledgeable adult and believe this nonsense. It isn’t possible. You cannot be this naive.
Mike: ”What I believe is PURE GARBAGE IS THE PRETRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH.”
The difference between you and I is that I would never call what you believe ”garbage”. There are many people that believe several different things about the Rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming and the Millennial reign of Christ on earth. IIIIII believe Jesus is coming before the Tribulation, which is called JACOBS trouble, and includes the judgement of God upon unrighteousness in this world, and it is for the Church to take them out before the judgement falls. As I said this is the pattern of Gods will all through the Bible. Noah’s Ark being one type, and Lot and His family another. I see things happening in this world that lead me to believe this is very soon (Israel becoming a nation and the Jews returning to their homeland after 2500 years is one very important one)…..HOW soon, I am not sure, but we must have our eyes open to the signs of the times. It is definitely not 1000 years from now, because I believe the earth has been given around 6000 years in Gods plan before the 7th ”Sabbath” or rest, when Christ reigns for 1000 years.
Mike: ”The body of believers is identified as the True Church of Israel,”
Where in the Bible does it mention the ”True Church of Israel”?
” I have even been told by at least one Christian that you cannot be a believer if you reject the Ideology.”
That is certainly ridiculous, salvation is by faith in Christ alone.
”mherman: “Well there is the truth in one sentence…..you are putting your trust in your riches, I, on the other hand, put my trust in God ALONE. We have to be ready for what is to come, but not by storing up gold and silver, but by getting close to the Lord and being filled with His Spirit and trusting in His Grace.”
You could not be more WRONG. By trusting in man’s money (fiat currency) you are trusting in man and not the Lord.”
WRONG? HOW? Isn’t that what I said?….I’m a little confused here!
”What you are doing is expecting God to save you from the wrath to come even though the Bible states that the righteous will suffer with the unrighteous.”
”…God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” 1 Thess 5 v 9 ”Wherefore comfort yourselves together…” v 10. There is no comfort in knowing you are going to suffer under Gods wrath.
”And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thess 1 v 10. Does that sound like we have to suffer with the unrighteous?
”Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him”
Romans 5 v 9. That isn’t just being saved from judgement and hell, it includes the wrath that God will pour out upon this earth before He returns with ”the armies that were in heaven…..clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (which represents the righteousness of the saints) Rev. 19 v 14. One wonders how we, can come back with Him then if we havn’t been taken up earlier.
Mike:” If I am right and I pray I am wrong about the coming economic crisis, I will be in a position to help my church, my brothers and sisters in Christ, my family, and my fellow man.”
It’s good to be in a position to help our brothers and sisters when things get tough, but don’t think that YOU are their source when they have a need. I know of many stories where God has miraculously supplied to those who have been in dire need……God loves to show His power to look after His children.
It is stupid not to prepare at all, but to rely completely on wealth or our own provision is putting our trust in things instead of in God.
Mike: ”What happens to our missionaries and who will support them if congregations are wiped out financially.”
WHO do you think is looking after them??? and will look after them. God does not leave us to our own devices. He is our Father, He loves and cares for His children, and He loves for them to trust in HIM.
.” I love you mherman as I love all of my brothers and sisters, but you do not have a clue about how the central banks work and the evil that is now upon us.”
That’s nice to know, I’m sure if we met we would get on great guns….but I dont’ have to have deep insight into financial markets and banks etc. to be prepared for the future, I just need to read my Word and believe in it (as you rightly say) and put my trust completely in my everlasting Father to let me know EXACTLY what I am to do. He will speak to me…..even though you think you are the one doing the speaking, I don’t hear Gods voice Mike….I hear only yours.
Mike: ”mherman: “And that includes your gold and silver Mike…don’t you realise that.” Gold and silver are inanimate objects. Right? Who created them? If Gold and Silver are cursed then you are saying that part of God’s creation is cursed. I thought that when God had finished His work He saw all He had made and called it GOOD. Was God a liar?”
YOU said they were cursed not me!
”mherman, you do not have a clue as to how man’s money is by its existence evil. I do not doubt that gold and silver can be used for evil purposes, but they themselves are not evil by their existence.”
Am I reading this wrong or are you contradicting yourself? Money is not evil in itself, the Word says, ”the love of money is the root of all evil”. We need money, but we cannot put our faith in it. One day soon, money will be replaced by a Mark system…….or do you not believe in the ”Mark of the Beast”?
”Again I say, I look at the world through the lens of scripture.”
ALWAYS.
Mike: ”Sadly, the turmoil is just beginning. It is the result of the “traditions of men” (Mark 7:9-13) which have corrupted our monetary system, allowing the powerful to exploit the weak and the greedy to prey on the poor. It is time for Christians to stand for the truth contained in God’s word and bring this abomination to an end.”
Yes, even our own government is doing it! But this is just one of many evils in the world that we must stand against. And I agree absolutely with your last line, including every abomination that is perpetrated by sinful men in this world, not just money grabbers.
Mike: I shall have a look at your links but I don’t promise I shall get as passionate as you are about it!
mherman: “he difference between you and I is that I would never call what you believe ”garbage”.
I call it garbage because those that proclaim that the “end is near…Jesus is coming to take us out before the tribulation do so much harm to the body of Christ. Bernie, when he refers to all the failed predictions made by Christians is most like speaking of the Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation. This nonsense has to stop. It makes a mockery of Christ’s church. I believe it is a tool of Satan himself to keep people from the good news of Jesus Christ. In that respect it is pure GARBAGE.
mherman: “…God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” This speaks to eternity. Israel suffered God’s wrath due to the nation’s disobedience. The righteous suffered along with the unrighteous, but in eternity believers will all receive their reward. That is unquestionably true. Just as God provided Noah with an escape from the flood and Lot from the destruction of S & G, he provides us with an escape if we just believe what He tells us. The escape involves abandoning the man’s evil currency (except for that which we need to live on) and putting your faith in what God has created to be wealth. It is not pieces of paper with dead Presidents, Queens, Kings, famous political leaders on it, wealth is what man can produce from the earth. God did not tell Adam to go and print a bunch of money, he told him to tend the garden…..to be productive. Our Satanic monetary system rewards the lazy. How much effort does it take to produce something out of thin air (electronic money) lend it out then collect interest on it which someone had to sweat for. Do you think God will bless this system forever??
mherman, “by getting close to the Lord and being filled with His Spirit and trusting in His Grace.” So long as you trust the current system run by the Banksters, and in my book they are no better than criminals, you reject what God has told you. Loving the Lord means more than just snuggling up to Him. His people may have snuggled up to Him, read His word, then spit in his face by adopting the traditions of men. Jesus said, by the traditions of men you have nullified the Word of God. The religious Pharisees did it and so have we in the 20th and 21st centuries. God’s patience has worn out….time to take it all down.
mherman: “It’s good to be in a position to help our brothers and sisters when things get tough, but don’t think that YOU are their source when they have a need. I know of many stories where God has miraculously supplied to those who have been in dire need……God loves to show His power to look after His children.
It is stupid not to prepare at all, but to rely completely on wealth or our own provision is putting our trust in things instead of in God.”
You still don’t get it. My faith is TOTALLY in GOD….TOTALLY….TOTALLY. I take Him at His word. When He says something is abominable to Him, I don’t expect Him to bless me if I put my faith in that abomination.
As for God providing, I have never heard of provisions falling from heaven at anytime since the Bible was written. Now I have heard of situations where a church or a family going through difficult times were rescued but they were always rescued by someone or something else. If I am unemployed and I pray for work while I send out resumes and network with people that know me in my profession and I get a job; I would thank God for giving me the job, but I would also know that He would not have done so if I just laid back and did nothing. I do not know of very many Christians that JUST PRAY and do nothing else. If you are diagnosed with a serious disease do you just pray or do you go to the Doctor. If you go to the doctor are you rejecting a faith in God and putting your faith in Modern Medicine? A true Christian does both, prays and goes to the doctor. Those that just pray in almost all circumstances wind up suffering needlessly or die. God is not our cosmic servant.
mherman: “God loves to show His power to look after His children.
It is stupid not to prepare at all, but to rely completely on wealth or our own provision is putting our trust in things instead of in God.” You still do not understand. Gold is not wealth. It creates nothing. It will not power a motor vehicle or a tractor. It will not provide electricity to a city. It does have some use in technology but that is minimal since silver is cheaper and often better for those purposes. You cannot eat it or drink it. GOLD IS MONEY. IT HAS BEEN MONEY FOR 5000 YEARS. It is a medium of exchange that has been accepted by nearly every civilization since man has been on the planet. IT IS NOT WEALTH but it does preserve it. That is its function.
mherman: “WHO do you think is looking after them??? and will look after them. God does not leave us to our own devices. He is our Father, He loves and cares for His children, and He loves for them to trust in HIM.” If you really believe God is our Father then tell me what a good father does when the children have been disobedient?
mherman: “That’s nice to know, I’m sure if we met we would get on great guns….but I dont’ have to have deep insight into financial markets and banks etc. to be prepared for the future, I just need to read my Word and believe in it (as you rightly say) and put my trust completely in my everlasting Father to let me know EXACTLY what I am to do. He will speak to me…..even though you think you are the one doing the speaking, I don’t hear Gods voice Mike….I hear only yours.”
Maybe you are not listening. Doug Tjaden is speaking to you. Jason Hommell is speaking to you. John Loeffler is speaking to you. Dr. Marc Faber is speaking to you. Peter Schiff is speaking to you. Peter Grandich is speaking to you. Do you think that maybe God is speaking to you through these men. How did He speak to Israel? Did He not use prophets….men like the ones I’ve mentioned. Men that have predicted events with unerring accuracy and yet there are many that scoff at what they say.
I am not asking you to have great knowledge of financial markets but I do expect you to have knowledge of what the Bible says. God, through His word speaks loud and clear. The British Pound and the US dollar are both an abomination to Him. That much should be clear to you. Apparently you think God is all love and forgiveness. I have news for you, His patience wears eventually and His wrath is nothing I want to experience either here on earth or after I leave it. I know I am forgiven in eternity, but here on earth is quite a different story.
mherman: ” YOU said they were cursed not me!
” On the contrary. You equated man’s money to what God provide us to use as money when you wrote the following in response to my statement ” Man’s money is cursed and soon everyone will come to realize it.” Immediately after copying this statement by me you wrote, “And that includes your gold and silver Mike…don’t you realise that.” You still believe that the British Pound (BP) is money. It is not money, it is debt. The USD is debt not money.
mherman: “”mherman, you do not have a clue as to how man’s money is by its existence evil. I do not doubt that gold and silver can be used for evil purposes, but they themselves are not evil by their existence.”
Am I reading this wrong or are you contradicting yourself? Money is not evil in itself, the Word says, ”the love of money is the root of all evil”. We need money, but we cannot put our faith in it. ”
I back to an original statement, you do not have a clue. I’ve tried to explain it every which way I know how and you still equate Gold with the BP or the USD. To you they represent the same thing. I guess if I showed you a picture of me and my dog along with a pornographic picture you would judge both as equal morally? If I showed you a beautiful tree and a bloody baseball bat that was used to kill an entire family you would view each equally pleasing to the eye?
One more time: MAN’S FIAT MONEY IS EVIL BY ITS VERY EXISTENCE. Gold is God’s creation and is not evil by its existence. I do not know how else to explain it to you. Please go to Doug’s website and spend some time listening to what he says. He comes TOTALLY FROM A BIBLICAL WORLD VIEW. He offers NO INVESTMENT ADVICE. He tells you what the Bible says then describes what man has done in regards to money.
mherman: “Mike: I shall have a look at your links but I don’t promise I shall get as passionate as you are about it!”
The only issue I am more passionate about is abortion. But the truth is that to some extent, our fiat monetary system provides for state funded abortions. A significant amount of tax revenues go to paying interest on the debt. It through financing the debt that government pays expenditures, and that includes state funded abortions and abortions across the world.
I am glad you will visit Doug’s web site. This is the Video series page:
http://www.traditionsofmen.org/html/video_series.html
You can also get there by going to the home page: http://www.traditionsofmen.org/
clicking on the yellow strip in the middle of the page, “This is our ministry of truth.”
then clicking on Video Series on the left side of the page.
Either way you will be at the 14 or 15 short clips that takes you through what is money and how fiat money violates God’s law. You may want to start with the introduction.
ON the home page you will also see a link to Fiat Empire, a video that explains how the Fed came into existence and how it works. Remember our Federal Reserve is a near copy of your Central Bank.
You might want to watch his video titled “Silver Summit-Silver in scripture.” You will note that Doug is a Godly man. His presentation was not at a church. It was not before a religious group. It was before people of all faiths and some of no faith at the Silver summit, which is a secular organization. Here is a man of God preaching the word to people that do not have a clue as to what is God’s money. These people believe in honest money but they look at it through the a secular lens. What a witness for the Lord as Doug presents a Biblical worldview.
Mike:” I call it garbage because those that proclaim that the “end is near…Jesus is coming to take us out before the tribulation do so much harm to the body of Christ.”
I’m sorry but I can’t see the harm in ”looking for that Blessed Hope and the appearing of our Saviour..”
or ”look up for your redemption draws near”, or ”Be ready, for in such an hour as YOU THINK NOT, the Son of Man comes.”
I do not believe we should fix dates…..the J.W’s have done that a multitude of times about ”the end” but they have been wrong time and again…..but try squirming out of what they said! Christians who do it are wrong to…..that I would say is not a good witness for the truth. But there are many things that many in the Church do that are not honouring to God, we just have to make sure we aren’t one of them.
”Just as God provided Noah with an escape from the flood and Lot from the destruction of S & G, he provides us with an escape if we just believe what He tells us. The escape involves abandoning the man’s evil currency (except for that which we need to live on) and putting your faith in what God has created to be wealth.”
The first line…..EXACTLY……He provides the escape by taking us out! Nothing to do with money. Why so much emphasis on money all the time? You seem almost obsessed by it. We need to put our faith IN GOD…..IN GOD….ALONE.
”So long as you trust the current system run by the Banksters,”
BUT I DON’T! Have you not been listening! I trust IN GOD, NOT MONEY.
”You still don’t get it. My faith is TOTALLY in GOD….TOTALLY….TOTALLY. I take Him at His word. When He says something is abominable to Him, I don’t expect Him to bless me if I put my faith in that abomination.”
And I don’t put my faith in it either, so what are we arguing about I wonder!?
” Apparently you think God is all love and forgiveness. I have news for you, His patience wears eventually and His wrath is nothing I want to experience either here on earth or after I leave it. I know I am forgiven in eternity, but here on earth is quite a different story.”
No I don’t! God is Holy and just and He will punish sin and those who continue to reject His Son. And you are forgiven HERE and NOW. You don’t have to wait for eternity to be forgiven!
Right…..YOU said, ”money is cursed”, so I was trying to say that your gold/silver, whatever you want to put your trust in must also be cursed, so why do you trust in it so much!?
”I back to an original statement, you do not have a clue.”
YOU ARE RIGHT! I havn’t a clue what you are talking about! I don’t know of it’s the way you tell it or what but I think I’ll give up on trying to understand you and your obsession with the financial world.
Yes, God created gold, but look how much people have suffered through the love of and greed for it!
Everything that God created is good until you pervert it…..like sex. Use it the wrong way and people suffer.
Well, I’m leaving this subject now because it’s getting nowhere.
Expecting the rapture in our lifetime is insanity. It has insanity for the last 2,000 years, and it will forever be insanity.
X: And what authority do you use to support such a statement?
”Knowing this first, that there shall come in the LAST DAYS scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of His coming?” 2 Peter 3 v 3- 4a.
Doing the same thing expecting different results…
insanity.
Post 87,
It works whenever I’m fishing, X[grin].
I’m not claiming that it’s not insane in some aspect, only that said technique can have the desired results at times.
mherman: “He provides the escape by taking us out! Nothing to do with money. Why so much emphasis on money all the time? You seem almost obsessed by it. We need to put our faith IN GOD…..IN GOD….ALONE.” Noah still had to build the ark did he. God didn’t build it for him did he?
I guess you would ask Noah, why all the emphasis on the Boat? Why do you keep talking about the rain? Noah’s answer, “because that is where the disaster is coming.”
mherman: “.the J.W’s have done that a multitude of times about ”the end” but they have been wrong time and again…..but try squirming out of what they said! Christians who do it are wrong to…..that I would say is not a good witness for the truth. But there are many things that many in the Church do that are not honouring to God, we just have to make sure we aren’t one of them.”
Unfortunately most Christians that believe in the pretribulational rapture also get involved in the guessing game. Just do a web search on Antichrist. Read the history of all who were suppose to be the Antichrist. This part of the madness has been going on for 2000 years. In these times, like others before, many are claiming that they have identified the Antichrist. Napoleon, Hitler, Mussolini, Gorbachev, and even Reagan are some who have been “identified” as the Antichrist. Just go to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist
Here is a review of end times through the ages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_times
Bernie is right in one thing regarding Christianity. We Christians have been predicting the end of the world too many times to count and still the madness goes on. Every generation believes they are the ones to experience the Antichrist and the return of Jesus. The Pretrib Rapture ideology did not come about until Darby hit the scene and C.I. Schofield made it a central theme in his study Bible.
Here is a bit more from Wikipedia:
The reestablishment of Israel in 1948 provided a major impetus to the dispensationalist belief system. Israel’s history of wars after 1948 with its Arab neighbors provided further research as was seen in at least one book by John F. Walvoord[7]. After the Six Day War in 1967, and the Yom Kippur War in 1973, it seemed plausible to many Fundamentalist Christians in the 1970s that Middle East turmoil may well be leading up to the fulfillment of various Bible prophecies and to the Battle of Armageddon.
Members of the dispensationalist movement such as Hal Lindsey, J. Dwight Pentecost, John Walvoord, all of whom have Dallas Theological Seminary backgrounds, and some other writers, claimed further that the European Economic Community founded on the Treaty of Rome was a revived Roman Empire, and would become the kingdom of the coming Antichrist and the Beast. The Roman Empire also figured into the New Testament writers’ vision of the future. The fact that in the early 1970s, there were (erroneously thought to be) seven nations in the European Economic Community was held to be significant; this aligned the Community with a seven headed beast mentioned in Revelation. This specific prophecy has required revision, but the idea of a revived Roman Empire remains.
The separate destinies of the Church and Israel, a belief which is inherent in dispensationalism is a particular concern to some Jews and to some evangelical Christians. Evangelicals who reject dispensationalism, such as those who hold to a Post Tribulation Rapture, (or more accurately a Post Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture), see both the Church and Israel entering the crucible of the End Time together.
Dispensationalism, in contrast to the Millerite Adventist movement, had its beginning in the 19th century, when John Nelson Darby, founder of the Plymouth Brethren religious denomination, incorporated into his system of Biblical interpretation a system of organizing Biblical time into a number of discrete dispensations, each of which marks a separate covenant with God. Darby’s beliefs were widely publicized in Cyrus I. Scofield’s Scofield Reference Bible, an annotated Bible that became popular in the United States of America.
Since the majority of the Biblical prophets were writing at a time when [Israel] was mostly Jewish, and the Temple in Jerusalem was still functioning, they wrote as if those institutions would still be in operation during the prophesied events. According to Preterism this was the very fulfillment of the prophecies. However, according to Futurists their destruction in AD 70 put the prophetic timetable, if there is one, on hold. Many such believers therefore anticipated the return of Jews to Israel and the reconstruction of the Temple before the Second Coming could occur. (See Christian Zionism)
[edit] Specific prophetic movements
In 1843, William Miller made the first of several predictions that the world would end in only a few months. As his predictions did not come true (referred to as the Great Disappointment), followers of Miller went on to found separate churches, the most successful of which is the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”
Tell me, mherman, does this all not make a mockery of the Christ’s church.
mherman: “Yes, God created gold, but look how much people have suffered through the love of and greed for it!”
So it is not the gold that is evil it is how people use it. Just like I can raise a German Sheppard to be an aid to the blind or I can raise one to kill, the German Sheppard itself is not evil. My tree analogy is the same. A tree can be used for shade, for fruit if is a fruit tree, or to make weapons to kill my fellow man. Is the tree evil. No but man is. God made the tree and the tree is good. God made gold and gold is good. Man makes fiat currency then forces people to use it and that is……… You fill in the blank. God made gold, the tree, copper, oil, iron, lead, wheat, corn, etc. Man makes fiat money.
mherman: “Everything that God created is good until you pervert it…..like sex. Use it the wrong way and people suffer.” But God did not make fiat money, man did. Please understand this basic principle.
mherman: “Well, I’m leaving this subject now because it’s getting nowhere.
”
I hope it has revealed to you the basic concept that fiat money is man made. Gold which God gave us to use as money was created by God. Which of the two is inherently evil. Evil because it exists. Evil because fiat money can be created without limit by the central banks and therefore it defies God’s word that says, “diverse weights and diverse measures, both alike are an abomination unto the Lord.” What part of ABOMINATION is so hard to understand?
X: “Expecting the rapture in our lifetime is insanity. It has insanity for the last 2,000 years, and it will forever be insanity.”
I must correct part of your statement. The Pretribulational Rapture is but 170 years old. It started in mid 19th century. As for the rest of your statement, I AGREE. Christians have debated the interpretation of the Book of Revelation for decades. The interpretation that seems the most plausible is the partial preterist view. This view interprets the Olivet Discourse as Jesus accurately predicting the destruction of the temple. The end of the age.
There is great confusion because in the original Greek, the manuscripts use 3 different words which were interpreted as “World.” So when you come across the word world you have to know which of the three original Greek words were being used. If it is the word “oikomene” (sp?) it means the Roman Empire or known world. If the word is “aion” it means age. If the word is “kosmos” it means the entire planet. So when Jesus speaks of the end of the “world” in Math. 24, he is speaking of “aion.” not the planet. The other bit of confusion comes in when Jesus speaks of His coming in clouds with power and great glory. Coming in clouds refers to judgment. Throughout the OT, God coming in clouds is a reference to judgment.
The book of Revelation uses a great deal of OT imagery. So when it speaks of Satan as a great dragon, it is not describing what Satan looks like it is describing what Satan is like. The woman cloaked in the sun with 12 stars on her head is apostate Israel.
When the NT speaks of the Moon turning to blood, the stars falling to earth, and Sun not giving its light, it is OT testament language referring to events that are going to be really bad. We do the same thing with the English Language. For example, if I say, “The events of 9-11 were earth shattering.” Do I mean that the earth literally shattered apart. If I say, “It’s raining cats and dogs.” Do I mean little fuzzy animals are falling from the sky.
Unfortunately, the modern Bible prophets do great harm. Please do not dismiss the Bible because of what these nutcases say… I am not referring to those Christians that have been duped by preachers and more than a few scam artists. Hal Lindsey sold 40 million copies of his book the Late Great Planet Earth. The “Left Behind” crowd has made a fortune on the Pretrib Rapture. As far as I am concerned these are no better than snake oil salesmen.
Poor snakes and dragons…..always getting a bad rap in Christianity[smile].
I have two of Hal Linsey’s books, “Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth”, and “The Late Great Planet Earth”. They are….fascinating.
Mike, as for your understanding of symbolic literature in the Bible, preach it!
Post 67 – Bernie: I already said that I hold to no ideology and am a member of no religion. I have no FAITH in politics or religion of any kind including the idea that a Welfare state would be beneficial let alone feasible.
Great, now that you don’t have a brain no one can talk to you.
Post 88 – John: It works whenever I’m fishing, X[grin].
Good one.
And Maz, where did you find support for the pre-trib interpretation? I just read a book that describes every step a pre-tribber has to take scripturally to hold their view…and it’s astounding. It takes a lot of ingenuity to reach that position.
I also don’t understand why you reject Mike’s views on fiat money. The value of your money is not insured/stable in that system…it’s under the control of the powers that be. Imagine working all of your life, only to have your life’s work stolen through the system you are engaged in… Then your life’s work amounts to slave labor. Why doesn’t that bother you and lead you to agree with Mike?
John: “I have two of Hal Linsey’s books, “Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth”, and “The Late Great Planet Earth”. They are….fascinating.”
I agree, great works of fiction are fascinating. I first read “The Late Great Planet Earth” soon after it came out. I was not a believer at the time (I came to Christ in 1996 at the age of 49…better late than never). I recall laughing at anyone that would believe such nonsense. I also knew that the end of the world had been predicted too many times to count by “foolish…stupid” Christians. I do believe that book and others that proclaimed to know the end was at hand did more to keep me from the TRUTH of God’s word than anyone / anything else. I know what impact it had on me as a nonbeliever and therefore I believe it does more harm than good.
John: “Poor snakes and dragons…..always getting a bad rap in Christianity[smile].”
If the dealers in OTC derivatives had existed back then the Bible would have used them to give you an idea of what Satan is like. These men are without morals. They do not have a soul or a heart. They have made fortunes while knowing destroyed our economy…..and yet our government gives them hundreds of billions thus making the people pay for the Bankster’s incompetence.
I will take a pit full of rattlesnakes over one of these parasites…..sorry parasites for comparing you to Banksters; they are much worse.
Too bad they did not exist at the time when the Scriptures were being written. Maybe we would be hacking them up with a hoe instead of snakes every time we saw one
ADB: “Mike, as for your understanding of symbolic literature in the Bible, preach it!”
Always. The three issues I am most passionate about are 1. proper reading of scripture 2. abortion is murder 3. a sound / Biblical monetary system.
b baggins: “I just read a book that describes every step a pre-tribber has to take scripturally to hold their view…and it’s astounding. It takes a lot of ingenuity to reach that position.”
What’s the name of the Book. I would love to read it. Nine years ago, I began to doubt the rapture ideology. No matter how hard I tried I could not use the Bible along with good hemeneutics to explain the Pretribulation Rapture. I even met with my preacher, who believes this mess, and came to the same place. You have to twist the Bible like a pretzel to make it work. Literal interpretation meant to interpret similar words and passages different ways. To explain the rapture you have to insert 2000+ years in Daniel’s 70 weeks of years between the 69th and 70th year. “Near” and “The time is at hand” in the first Chapter of Revelation means thousands of years into the future. Modern day invaders of Israel come seeking cattle and horses. Modern warfare is fought with chariots, spears and arrows; or they represent tanks and guided missiles.
The Pretribulational Rapture ideology is a mess. A concoction of the fertile imagination of a 19th century preacher.
God wrote the Book, man has made a mess of it. We…..most of us…missed the message; at least when it comes to eschatology.
b baggins: “The value of your money is not insured/stable in that system…it’s under the control of the powers that be. Imagine working all of your life, only to have your life’s work stolen through the system you are engaged in… Then your life’s work amounts to slave labor. Why doesn’t that bother you and lead you to agree with Mike?”
In this respect, mherman is no different than Bernie or 99% of humanity. We like to think ourselves as rational…..human beings are basically rational…..or so we think. Human beings are more emotional than rational. One of the best books written on the subject is “Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds”. It goes back to the mid 19th century. An excellent work and a must read if you want to understand something of how the masses think, act, and react.
Once we humans have a strongly held belief, we will fight every attempt to surrender that belief in light of new evidence. We see this throughout human history. The Geocentric Theory of the solar system was adopted by science and those that opposed it often paid with their lives. Classic example of a paradigm shift taking place and meeting with paradigm resistance; mankinds unwillingness to give up what has been true for so long.
So, in our personal experience we have always had a strong dollar, and a prosperous economy. Even though most of that prosperity in the past 20 years was built on ever increasing levels of debt and falling production of goods, we believed that the system would go on forever and was basically sound. The West was wealthy, while the rest of the world labored in squalor to support our life styles. Now that the emerging countries are truly emerging and we find ourselves less than competitive, due to high taxes and government regulations, we cannot conceive that the old system is breaking down. People in the West have benefited from a strong currency which up until 1971 was still partially tied to gold (Bretton Wood Agreement 1944). No one noticed that the link was broken. Nothing happened immediately so we thought all was well. Little did we know that the cancer was spreading. Fiat currency is now destroying us just as a cancer begins with one cell but in time consumes the body.
The paradigm shift will take place. At some point we will wake up to the faulty notions that led us down this path of destruction. In time, we will adapt and change. A new day will dawn, hopefully with a new asset backed currency. Those that position themselves for the ‘Great Transition” will do well. Those that do take precautions will suffer. That is the way it has been since time began. Only a handful see what is coming. It is not hard to see for we have 1000s of years of history to show us the way. Like Noah, who believed God and built the ark, some of us are building our arks to survive the coming tidal wave.
X: ”Doing the same thing expecting different results…
insanity.”
So what does that mean in English?
John:” I’m not claiming that it’s not insane in some aspect, only that said technique can have the desired results at times.”
And what has this to do with waiting for the Rapture? You’ve lost me!
Bernie, our fledgling economist, here is a story you find interesting since you believe government spending will stimulate the economy. Of course this is cut and paste on my part but it does come from Time.
Obama’s Stimulus Plan: Failing by Its Own Measure
By Stephen Gandel Tuesday, Jul. 14, 2009
Back in early January, when Barack Obama was still President-elect, two of his chief economic advisers — leading proponents of a stimulus bill — predicted that the passage of a large economic-aid package would boost the economy and keep the unemployment rate below 8%. It hasn’t quite worked out that way. Last month, the jobless rate in the U.S. hit 9.5%, the highest level it has reached since 1983. (See 10 ways your job will change.)
The two advisers who wrote the paper, Christina Romer and Jared Bernstein, went on to land key jobs in the Obama Administration. Romer is the head of Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers, and Bernstein is the chief economist and economic-policy adviser to Vice President Joe Biden. And the stimulus bill that both economists championed became law in mid-February. What has not come to pass, however, is the boom in job creation that Romer and Bernstein predicted. A little over a month ago, the Administration said the stimulus bill had created or saved 150,000 jobs. That’s a far cry from the 3 million to 4 million jobs that Romer and Bernstein foresaw back in January.
Lawrence Summers, director of the White House’s National Economic Council, said last week that the stimulus bill was on track. This past weekend, the President rejected calls for a second stimulus package, saying the current stimulus needs more time to work, since only a small fraction of the money has been spent. From the beginning, the Administration has said that much of the boost to the economy from the stimulus plan would not come until the second half of this year. Administration officials have also insisted that it’s unfair to judge the effectiveness of the stimulus by projections they made back in January since the recession has turned out to be worse than what most economists predicted even just six months ago.
In a report released on July 13, Romer’s Council of Economic Advisers says the stimulus bill is creating opportunities for workers in health care, education and energy. The report reiterates that the economists believe the stimulus plan will create 3.5 million jobs by the end of 2010. “The various forms of fiscal stimulus are expected to provide powerful upward pressure on aggregate demand and to aid recovery,” Romer’s group says. (See 10 perfect jobs for the recession — and after.)
But while the stimulus plan may eventually reach its goal, a look at the paper Romer and Bernstein wrote back in January shows that at least for now, the stimulus plan is at best off to a slow start. The two economists did say in the report that they expect the bulk of the jobs created by the stimulus to happen in 2010 and 2011. Nonetheless, the report says that even by the middle of this year, the stimulus bill would have a positive effect on the unemployment rate. Without the stimulus, the two economists predicted, the unemployment rate would rise to around 8.5% by the middle of this year; add the stimulus, and that rate would drop by half a point. In reality, the unemployment rate is a full percentage point higher than what Romer and Bernstein predicted it would be without a stimulus.
Vincent Reinhart, a fellow at the right-leaning think tank the American Enterprise Institute and a former top economist at the Federal Reserve, says the problem with the stimulus bill is that it stimulates parts of the economy — like the health-care and alternative-energy industries — that were likely to grow anyway. He believes it would have been better to spend on U.S. manufacturing, where demand is much less certain to resurface and jobs are being shed rapidly. “I don’t buy the argument that you just have to give the stimulus package more time,” says Reinhart. “By the test they put forward to grade the stimulus, it is failing.”
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1910208,00.html
I knew the stimulus would fail from the get go. It was full of pork and very little stimulus as much of it went to transfer payments and ridiculous projects. THOSE OF YOU THAT DO NOT BELIEVE THE DOLLAR IS HEADED FOR THE TRASH BIN OF FIAT CURRENCIES read on:
(Comment: The dollar is yesterday’s game. Yes, it will remain in central bank’s reserves, but in a secondary position to a basket of currency units (SSCI).)
China plans global role for renminbi
By Peter Garnham
Published: July 14 2009 20:00
China has kick-started a major plan to internationalise the renminbi and the process is likely to be faster than many expect, according to HSBC.
If successful, this could lead to nearly $2,000bn in annual trade flows, or as much as 50 per cent of China’s total, being settled in renminbi each year by 2012, compared with less than 10 per cent today.
The move follows calls by China for the world to adopt a supranational currency to replace the dollar.
“China is beginning an ambitious scheme to raise the role of the renminbi in international trade and finance and to reduce reliance on the US dollar,” said Qu Hongbin, China chief economist at HSBC.
“This will likely be a multi-year and gradual process. Yet, we believe the pace is likely to be faster than many expect.”
http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=Business_News&subsection=market+news&month=July2009&file=Business_News2009071575520.xml
Nations with debt levels that exceed their GDP have doomed their currency. That is fact. Nations with huge surpluses generally….if not always gain the role top economic dog in the global market place. A strengthening renmimbi will bring down costs in China. They will suffer less from inflationary pressures and their economy will thrive while ours is bogged down by ever increasing debt, government regulations, higher interest rates, and increasing taxes. The sad part of this story is that we have done this to ourselves.
Mike: ”I guess you would ask Noah, why all the emphasis on the Boat? Why do you keep talking about the rain? Noah’s answer, “because that is where the disaster is coming.” ”
But the emphasis really was….”get into the Ark! There is a flood coming!” And the emphasis is the same today…..get into the Ark….meaning Jesus….for judgement is coming! And when we are in Jesus we shall be LIFTED UP ABOVE THE FLOOD….in other words the judgement of God……and we shall be safe with Him! Do you not see the picture God gives us even here in Genesis?
As humans we are prone to curiosity and making theories about things….the AntiChrist is no different, except I don’t go into it as much as perhaps others do. This kind of overly speculating is not healthy….no one knows who he will be until he appears.
”Every generation believes they are the ones to experience the Antichrist and the return of Jesus. The Pretrib Rapture ideology did not come about until Darby hit the scene and C.I. Schofield made it a central theme in his study Bible.”
But it is evident from scripture that even the first century Church was looking for and expecting Christ to come back. It is better to expect His return than not to expect it atall.
Well, we will never agree on the things of the end times, many have made mistakes about a lot of things happening in the world, but Post-tribbers and others are not without their own mistakes.
No one knows the DAY or the HOUR of Jesus return, but we must understand the TIMES and the SEASONS. Date setting is certainly a NO NO.
b baggins:” And Maz, where did you find support for the pre-trib interpretation? I just read a book that describes every step a pre-tribber has to take scripturally to hold their view…and it’s astounding. It takes a lot of ingenuity to reach that position.”
In the scriptures, no other source is acceptable. And was that book FOR or AGAINST it? It does make a difference how the TRUTH is presented and from whom. It is called BIAS.
”Why doesn’t that bother you and lead you to agree with Mike?”
Like I was trying to tell Mike, (but he seems to think it is silly to do it)…….I PLACE MY LIFE AND ALL THAT I AM AND HAVE IN GODS HANDS. So I do not get anxious about my life….”what I shall wear or what I shall eat” ETC..(have you not seen this somewhere in the Bible?
) If He wants me to do something specifically about my life He will make it plain IN MY SPIRIT. What Mike keeps going on about just puts me off. 
And I think we have strayed from the subject of the thread.
Mike,
Unlike you, I don’t need to cut and paste other people’s articles to make my points. I can think for myself, which is the reason I don’t belong to a religion, hold to any ideology or believe that the Bible even might contain historical narratives. First I’ll prove you don’t know the difference between political and economic systems:
There are only three political systems: feudal, populist, and democratic. The different economic systems are a Traditional economy, Market economy, Planned economy and Mixed economy, the last being a combination of the market and planned economies. An economic system can be part of the social system. Certain economic systems are often correlated with the same political systems and ideologies. Fascist ideologies rarely concern themselves with economic issues. This is why our fascist (Republican) political party paid no attention to economics when they began fighting their holy war against Islam.
When a person has to constantly resort to ad hominem attacks in a debate this proves they have no case, no arguments, no evidence and no proofs to back up their claims. When a Bible believer sees all their claims demolished in a debate they invariably resort to threats of eternal violence and torture for not buying into their religious dogma and lies like you keep doing. You’re what many people refer to as a born loser. You have a lot of nerve calling me or anyone else a fool or deranged. You saw absolute proof that atheism is not a religion because it contains not one element found in all real religions yet after seeing this proof you still make the asinine claim that atheism is a religion. This sends up a red flag because it reflects a profound and debilitating learning disability on your part. This learning disability is the reason other people have been able to lead you around by the nose, frighten you completely out of your mind with the threats of a particular religion and is of course the reason you have to use the words of other people to make any arguments of any kind. Your own arguments are reduced to nanny nanny boo boo, God loves me and he’s gonna beat you up.
If I want to read what right wing nuts that know nothing about economics write I can go to the retarded websites you worship and read what Gary North, Gary DeMar and the rest of the Reconstructionist fascist liars write for myself. This blog isn’t here so articles from other blogs can be pasted on it. The moderator should erase or censor all this mindless drivel you post. Then we can all see that Mike cannot defend his absurd claims with his own thoughts – because he doesn’t have any. I love being called a fool by someone with an obvious learning disability. Why is atheism a religion again Mike? ROFL!
bagins- Post 67 – Bernie: I already said that I hold to no ideology and am a member of no religion. I have no FAITH in politics or religion of any kind including the idea that a Welfare state would be beneficial let alone feasible.
Great, now that you don’t have a brain no one can talk to you.
Answer: Anyone can go back and look at the posts where I destroyed your arguments when you attempted to debate me. So like a true Christian who has seen all his arguments demolished you make personal attacks. Obviously I have a brain and unlike you I’m not afraid to use it to think for myself. Your brain on the other hand has been weighed down and narrowed by absurd religious dogma and lies. You’re a grown person who believes in all sorts of invisible beings for which there is no evidence whatsoever, all kinds of goofy stories that cannot be verified historically, ridiculous wonder-working people who never existed, a bunch of long refuted pseudo-scientific hoaxes put forth by lying Christian apologists and that after you die your soul (for which there is no evidence) is going to fly of somewhere to a magical kingdom ruled by a magical monster Christians call God. When even one of your retarded religious superstitions gets verified scientifically you let us all know will you? Hahaha. Until then keep showing how unkind, mean-spirited and nasty you are and keep hurling those insults to remind us all that you’re a true Christian.
mherman: “But the emphasis really was….”get into the Ark! There is a flood coming!” And the emphasis is the same today…..get into the Ark….meaning Jesus….for judgement is coming! And when we are in Jesus we shall be LIFTED UP ABOVE THE FLOOD….in other words the judgement of God……and we shall be safe with Him! Do you not see the picture God gives us even here in Genesis?”
I am sure you are a lovely person. I really do like you. So here comes the BUT….but you view scripture through pure emotion. Reason and logic are absent. Yet we are told to “renew our minds.” There are countless judgments of God throughout history. You keep referring to the final judgment. I am in total agreement with you and have stated that in light of eternity, what happens to us here on earth is a gnat on an elephants behind. That said, if I had lived in England at the outbreak of WW II, I would have done what so many Brits did to protect their children, which was to get them out of the big cities and in many cases out of the country. No one knew if Germany would invade the British Isles. In truth it was a miracle of God that Hitler was never able to send troops across the Channel.
You say get in the ark. Right but Noah had to build it. Recall, that once the rain began, God closed the ark and from there all those outside perished. The judgment I speak of is similar to the flood. It is not the final judgment but it is judgment on a system that is totally corrupt. Those that remain faithful to man’s currency (fiat money) will suffer. Those that insure themselves by allocating 20% or more to precious metals will survive in good shape. It is that simple.
mherman: “But it is evident from scripture that even the first century Church was looking for and expecting Christ to come back. It is better to expect His return than not to expect it at all.” I haven’t said that. No partial preterist has said that Jesus would not return. All true believers accept as fact that Jesus will return at the end of time….the final judgment of all human beings and the nations. What I find objectionable is the interpretation of scripture that basically allows for the Bible to say whatever the interpreter wants it to say. So, in Math. 24 “this generation’, which means the generation Jesus is speaking to in every other instance prior to Math. 24, now means THAT GENERATION. Near and “the time is at hand” in Rev. means some point in the far distant future. The first 69 weeks of Daniel represent the perfect time span leading up to the Birth of Christ but the time span between the 69th and 70th week is a gap of over 2000 years. Like I said, we have been over this before. Read Hank’s book or go to RC Sproll’s website and see if you can find his analysis of eschatology. OF all the theories on the end times, he says that the Pretrib. Rapture is on the shakiest ground.
mherman: “No one knows the DAY or the HOUR of Jesus return, but we must understand the TIMES and the SEASONS. Date setting is certainly a NO NO.” I agree but then why have Christians been saying for 2000 years, “This is it. This is the time. Jesus is coming soon.” and for 2000 years Christians have been WRONG and in my opinion have done great harm. And yet we continue to believe the false prophets. In this respect, Christians are no different that the Jehovah Witnesses.
Bernie: “The moderator should erase or censor all this mindless drivel you post.” Spoken like a true fascist. Silence the opposition, because you cannot win on the field of intellectual honesty.
I’ve set my self up for ridicule by making some pretty specific predictions. Yet you want to discredit me before I’ve even been given a chance to see if I am correct. Do I sense fear on your part? Fear that I may be right and once again you will have to eat your words. You’ve been munching on them for some time, I would expect you would be full by now. You stated that Socialism and Fascism were political systems not economic ones. You were wrong as they are both. I never denied that Socialism and Fascism had political elements, I just stated the economic aspects of these systems.
Now I’ve been saying that there may come a time when people will find it hard if not nearly impossible to attain gold. We are now into a second year where there are reported shortages of gold and silver. Just read this little jewel. By the way Bernie, I refer more to Wikipedia (mostly because they are as neutral as one can find. I don’t think I have mentioned Gary Demar and only referred to Gary North a couple of times. I have provided numerous reputable sources from different view points to support my claims. I’ve even used OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT DATA.)
Bernie, you really have to get back on your meds….you are hallucinating again.
Here is MY CUT AND PASTE JEWEL.
(Comment: The paper gold market has been a game played by the gold banks while the physical market is low on supply.)
The U.S. Mint Again Suspends Gold Coin Sales: Is It Really Out of Gold?
July 13,
I may have missed one or the other suspension of gold coin sales by the US Mint. But here we go again: Checking the online store of the US Mint I came across notices of delays and suspensions with golden Eagles and Buffalos, with waiting times ranging from ‘weeks’ and to ‘await further notice’.
The US Mint press room has entirely omitted this confirmation about the tightness of the bullion market which enjoys upward momentum thanks to the thousands of big problems the world faces.
Checking on 24kt Buffalo gold coins, the Mint saddened me with this statement:
Production of United States Mint 2009 American Buffalo Gold Proof Coins has been delayed because of the limited availability of 24-karat gold blanks. The 2009 American Buffalo One-ounce Gold Proof Coin is scheduled to go on sale in the second half of the 2009 calendar year after an acceptable inventory of 24-karat gold blanks can be acquired. The release date, once established, will be posted to the 2009 Scheduled Products Listing.
As a result of the numismatic product portfolio analysis conducted last fall, beginning in 2009, American Buffalo Gold Proof fractional coins and the four-coin set are no longer available. Additionally, the United States Mint will no longer offer American Buffalo Gold Uncirculated Coins.
The most economical way to buy gold coins, US gold eagles, is blocked as well:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/148475-the-u-s-mint-again-suspends-gold-coin-sales-is-it-really-out-of-gold?source=email
or how about this one:
BROTHER, CAN YOU SPARE AN AMERICAN BUFFALO?
U.S. Mint gold, silver coin sales ‘temporarily suspended’ – again
Sales and suspension of gold and silver coin or bullion coin sales by the U.S. Mint are becoming a regular part of doing business as overloaded refiners and mint facilities struggle to meet continuing high demand.
Author: Dorothy Kosich
Posted: Tuesday , 14 Jul 2009
RENO, NV –
Unprecedented demand, a shortage of blanks, and restrictive policies and regulations continue to exacerbate what is almost becoming a chronic shortage of gold and silver coins authorized by the U.S. Mint.
The U.S. Mint has again “temporarily” suspended sales of almost all of its gold uncirculated and proof coins, along with nearly all of silver uncirculated coins because of the limited availability of blanks.
The mint no longer offers for sale the American Buffalo Gold Proof fractional coins and four coin sets are no longer available. Meanwhile the mint will no longer offer American Buffalo Gold Uncirculated Coins.
The 2009 American Buffalo One-ounce Gold Proof Coin is scheduled to go on sale in the second half of the 2009 calendar year after an acceptable inventory of 24-karat gold blanks can be acquired.
The U.S. Mint Online Product Catalog says production of the American Eagle Gold Proof and Uncirculated Coins has been temporarily suspended due to the “unprecedented demand” for American Eagle Bullion Coins for which all available 22-K gold blanks are being allocated.
http://mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page34?oid=86213&sn=Detail
Bernie: “Anyone can go back and look at the posts where I destroyed your arguments when you attempted to debate me. So like a true Christian who has seen all his arguments demolished you make personal attacks.”
Take your meds.
Mike:” I am sure you are a lovely person. I really do like you. So here comes the BUT….but you view scripture through pure emotion. Reason and logic are absent.”
Thanks for the compliments, and though I say it myself…..I am fairly agreeable with people even when I disagree with them. I’v had some dear Christian friends who believe almost like you, and I love them dearly, and I know they love the Lord. I find it difficult though to receive such disagreeable language from you however much you feel against those who fix dates etc. I do not see them quite in the same obnoxious way that you apparently do. I really believe they think they are right with what they say, especially Hal Lindsey. He seems to love the subject of prophecy and the last days as much as you seem to love economics. It is obvious we can’t all be right, so I would rather we had a little bit more grace in the debate rather than outright hostility.
And, yes, I am quite an emotional person, I am sensitive, and so possibly feel things more deeply than you seem to. But it is not at the cost of reason and logic. Neither can you be so logical and reasonable without your heart being moved in some way with what is happening in the world and what God has said in His Word about it.
”There are countless judgments of God throughout history. You keep referring to the final judgment”
1) Agreed. 2) If that is what we are talking about….ofcourse.
” What I find objectionable is the interpretation of scripture that basically allows for the Bible to say whatever the interpreter wants it to say.”
I always weigh scripture with scripture. I have read and studied this for some years and what I believe, is what I believe the Bible teaches. If I am wrong then give me the grace to be wrong until I find out I am…..or accept that maybe I am right and you are wrong. At the end, all that matters is that we make it to the throne room of grace and see our Saviour face to face. We’re sure to mess up a bit down here and will probably feel somewhat ashamed at how we handled things…..and people down here. May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with us all.
Bernie: “Your brain on the other hand has been weighed down and narrowed by absurd religious dogma and lies. You’re a grown person who believes in all sorts of invisible beings for which there is no evidence whatsoever, all kinds of goofy stories that cannot be verified historically, ridiculous wonder-working people who never existed, a bunch of long refuted pseudo-scientific hoaxes put forth by lying Christian apologists and that after you die your soul (for which there is no evidence) is going to fly of somewhere to a magical kingdom ruled by a magical monster Christians call God. When even one of your retarded religious superstitions gets verified scientifically you let us all know will you? Hahaha. Until then keep showing how unkind, mean-spirited and nasty you are and keep hurling those insults to remind us all that you’re a true Christian.”
You love to dish it out but you cannot take it. Christians on this blog have tried reasoning with you, but all we get back is personal attacks. Before I started responding to you, you mocked and ridiculed people of faith. The mean-spirited one, Sir, was you.
For years…make that decades, I was like you but at least I didn’t think any less of those that witnessed to me and prayed that someday I would come to Christ. I at least had the decency to recognize that they actually loved me and wanted to spend eternity with me and everyone else.
I’ve tried the best I can to convince you and anyone else interested in understanding what may be in store for the US and GB. I written extensively and given news articles and websites so that people can become better informed. All you had to do is say thanks but no thanks. Instead you launched into….for lack of a better word, insane attacks on me and my opinions. Even when I have agreed with you, you could not say, “hey how about that we agree on something.” kash and I have been at each other from time to time, but on occasion we have agreed and rejoiced together in the meeting of our minds on a particular issue.
What I do not understand is, “What makes you so bitter?….so angry all the time at everything and everyone?” Maybe my conclusions about you are wrong, but it sure seems that something is eating at you. Nothing is good in your life it seems. I speak of the founding fathers and you go off on a tirade about the founders being slave owners.
You say I resort to personal attacks, and that is true, but I do it in good fun. Sort of like playing the dozens. I guess you never played. Were you ever a child?
Bernie: “You’re a grown person who believes in all sorts of invisible beings for which there is no evidence whatsoever, all kinds of goofy stories that cannot be verified historically, ridiculous wonder-working people who never existed, a bunch of long refuted pseudo-scientific hoaxes put forth by lying Christian apologists and that after you die your soul (for which there is no evidence) is going to fly of somewhere to a magical kingdom ruled by a magical monster Christians call God.”
Yes and your point. I refuse to believe the opinions of a biological organism.
BTW, should we refer to you as Biological Organism Bernie or can we just shorten it B.O. Bernie….hmmm, maybe should shorten that to B.O.B….it sounds better.
mherman: “I would rather we had a little bit more grace in the debate rather than outright hostility.” My hostility is the damage these Bible Prophets do. Ask a few non-believers what they think of Bible prophecy; they will tell you. More than just a few will say something to the effect, “it’s a joke.” I venture to say that these so called end time Bible prophets keep more people from taking Scripture seriously than Satan himself. My hostility is not aimed at you, and if you interpreted it that way, I am sorry. My hostility is at those that should know better….those that God has made official preachers of His word.
mherman: “Hal Lindsey. He seems to love the subject of prophecy and the last days…..” Of course he does, it has made him a multimillionaire several times over. Benny Hinn and Jack van Impe (sp?) have also lined their pockets using….make that twisting God’s word. They and other “Christian” snake oil salesman have filled their pockets while robbing God’s people. They continue to promote the lies and profit from them.
Bernie: “The moderator should erase or censor all this mindless drivel you post.” Spoken like a true fascist. Silence the opposition, because you cannot win on the field of intellectual honesty.
Answer: I have already crushed you and your stupid arguments in the field of intellectual honesty, a subject you know absolutely nothing about. No one is trying to silence the opposition. People like you actually make a great case against their own beliefs. All I’m doing is pointing this out. The problem is that you cannot make or defend your own arguments because no one ever taught you the art of critical thinking. Even if they had tried I believe your learning disability would have prevented them from ever reaching you intellectually. You can only absorb the ideas of much less intelligent people which is why everything I post is far over your head and incomprehensible to you.
I’ve set my self up for ridicule by making some pretty specific predictions. Yet you want to discredit me before I’ve even been given a chance to see if I am correct. Do I sense fear on your part? Fear that I may be right and once again you will have to eat your words. You’ve been munching on them for some time, I would expect you would be full by now.
Answer: You set yourself up for ridicule because you believe in things like angels, demons and a lot of other nonsense. I’m not the one who thinks words have magical powers and should therefore be feared. I’m not a Christian whose beliefs are based on fear-induced superstitions put in my head by other people, YOU are.
You stated that Socialism and Fascism were political systems not economic ones. You were wrong as they are both. I never denied that Socialism and Fascism had political elements, I just stated the economic aspects of these systems.
Answer: Once again your learning disability has made it so you cannot understand even the most basic concepts. Once again, because of your intellectual dishonesty you look at proof you are wrong and deny it. Political systems are NOT economic systems and economic systems are NOT political systems. I would expect such a lack of knowledge from person who keeps saying atheism is a religion. I would expect a person who is afraid to admit they are wrong to keep insisting they are right in the face of proof they are not.
Now I’ve been saying that there may come a time when people will find it hard if not nearly impossible to attain gold. We are now into a second year where there are reported shortages of gold and silver. Just read this little jewel. By the way Bernie, I refer more to Wikipedia (mostly because they are as neutral as one can find. I don’t think I have mentioned Gary Demar and only referred to Gary North a couple of times. I have provided numerous reputable sources from different view points to support my claims. I’ve even used OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT DATA.)
Answer: Oh yeah, we can all trust OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT DATA like the data that told us there were WMDs in Iraq and that we could find Osama in Afghanistan.
Bernie, you really have to get back on your meds….you are hallucinating again.
Answer: Once again you suffer the humiliation of seeing your posts soundly refuted and mocked and respond not with a coherent rebuttal but with the only thing left in your arsenal, insults.
As a result of the numismatic product portfolio analysis conducted last fall, beginning in 2009, American Buffalo Gold Proof fractional coins and the four-coin set are no longer available. Additionally, the United States Mint will no longer offer American Buffalo Gold Uncirculated Coins.
Answer: How come you never responded to the fact that the 20 dollar gold piece I sold decades ago has not gone up in value and is actually now selling for less than I got for it back then? In fact you’ve ignored so many questions and points I’ve made now it’s getting ridiculous. I asked you to try to make the case atheism is a religion for just one example of this. You know just how bad you will look attempting to make this argument so you conveniently ignore it and all the rest of the questions and points that have already proved you wrong. You backed yourself into this corner. Let’s see you try to get out of it now.
Yes and your point. I refuse to believe the opinions of a biological organism.
Answer: Not true. You believe the opinions of the biological organisms that wrote the Bible. You believe the biological organisms that convinced you to believe the Bible. The fact is you just pick and choose which biological organisms you want to believe and which ones make too much sense for you to believe. As for your claim that you were once like me, nothing can be further from the truth. You never learned to think for yourself, because if you had, no one could have ever frightened you into believing the Bible is true.
mherman: “I always weigh scripture with scripture.”
So when the OT says (numerous times) that God coming in clouds is a sign of judgment. How do you interpret Matt. 24, when Jesus speaks of His coming in clouds and all who crucified Him would morn?
Who is the Giant woman cloaked in the sun with twelve stars… who is the great whore spoken of in Revelation? Consider that the OT refers to apostate Israel as a whore. An entire book of the OT is dedicated to a description of this whore.
The OT refers to the number 1000 numerous times. Is this number an exact number or does it represent something else. When OT says, “God owns all the cattle on a 1000 hills” what does that mean? Do we count out exactly 1000 hills and say God these are yours or does it mean He owns them all? What then are we to make of 144,000 Jewish believers in Rev.? Let’s see that is 12 X 12 X 1000.
1Thess.4 says that Jesus will return with a shout…with the trump of the archangel. Where is the secret rapture in this? All I see is Jesus return and we going to be with Him forever. Nothing what-so-ever about His coming then leaving then returning then setting up a third temple to conduct sacrifices in atonement for sin. I thought Jesus paid the price once and for all. As far as I am concerned this is blasphemy. Where is the 3rd. temple mentioned in the NT? Nowhere as far as I know. Why is it omitted? I mean such an important event should be mentioned shouldn’t it. Why is there no mention of the destruction of the temple in the NT. This was Jesus’s greatest prophecy and the NT is absolutely silent on it.
We’ve been down this path before. Those that promote the Pretrib. Rapture have a lot of questions to answer which up until now they have not answered.
What I do know is whether there is or isn’t a Pretrib. Rapture or a future antichrist, Jesus told us to live our lives for God’s glory and preach the Gospel. He did not tell us to go around trying to guess His return and yet that is exactly what so many preachers do. I get angry when Christian leaders make a mockery of God’s word, just as Jesus got angry with those that had turned God’s house into a den of thieves. Bottomline: The Pretrib. Rapture has made millions for those that promote it. You bet I am mad. This is money that could have been used to spread the Gospel, feed the poor, help our brothers and sisters suffering persecution overseas. Millions into the pockets of men and women who “are God’s representatives.” They are sons and daughters of Satan as far as I am concerned.
B.O.B: “How come you never responded to the fact that the 20 dollar gold piece I sold decades ago has not gone up in value and is actually now selling for less than I got for it back then?”
I did respond, I said that those that bought gold in 1979 and 1980 bought into the final parabolic blow off. Had Volcker not jacked up rates to 19% and restored the value of the US dollar, gold would have continued on that trajectory. But Volcker did the right thing and brought back confidence in the US dollar so gold lost its luster. But note it never returned to its pre 1972 price of $35.
Thanks for admitting gold is worthless.
Mike,
All your posts are of topic and full of insults. This is plus the fact that most of them are cut and paste jobs are the reasons I think the moderator should be deleting them, not because they present a good case for your claims. You are only making a fool of yourself and I’m all for that. It’s just that all this foolishness is a waste of space and even the people who like you wish you would just shut up and find something else to talk about.
Bernie, up until 2001, I did not give gold a thought. But like anyone with the slightest common sense, it seemed to me that we were headed for some sort of currency crisis. When I learned that OTC derivatives stood at $190 trillion and within the decade the boomers would start retiring and the fact that we did not have the money to pay said retirement, I thought maybe we were headed for some sort of currency crisis. After all the USD was the world’s reserve currency and loss of confidence in it would have global implications.
Pardon me B.O.B, for referencing the Bible, but there is a time for every season and it seemed that the season for gold was at hand. In times of strife people naturally turn to gold, and COMMON SENSE told me we were headed for some serious strife. So by late 2001, I started to accumulate gold and since silver usually lags I started to aggressively accumulate silver in 2003. I also began buying gold stocks that I thought were dirt cheap. I used technical analysis to know when to sell strength, never selling more than a 1/3 of leading producers and of course selling half of any junior position that doubled or tripled. I also began to accumulate energy and food related stocks.
Thus far my strategy has paid off and I now use my dividends from energy stocks mostly, to acquire gold and silver bullion. Last year was my first down year but I was not down by much since I had been taking profits and know how to recognize a parabolic blow off when I see one. Apparently you don’t know the difference between a parabolic blow off and a correction within the context of a bull market. Sorry for your market ignorance.
Someday I will sell all of my gold investments. Probably to someone who is just getting on board when it is really time to get off the train. But that is the way markets work. My guess is, by the time this bull market ends it may be time to buy real estate, financial stocks or technology. But then I suppose the Bernie’s of the world will be calling me a fool for investing in such rotten sectors.
BTW, B.O.B, cycles are so important to understand when thinking outside the box. It is all part of God’s perfectly ordered universe. For everything there is a season.
FOR THOSE THAT STILL DO NOT BELIEVE THE US DOLLAR (Satan’s currency) IS DOOMED, READ ON:
(Comment: Supply increases as demand falls. Now you know why the Administration is going to replace Bernanke unless he steps up buying of Treasury offerings.)
International Demand for Long-Term U.S. Assets Falls (Update1)
By Vincent Del Giudice
July 16 (Bloomberg) — International demand for long-term U.S. financial assets weakened in May as Russia, Japan and Caribbean banking centers trimmed their holdings even as China stepped up its purchases.
Total net sales of long-term equities, notes and bonds were a net $19.8 billion in May, compared with buying of $11.5 billion the month before, the Treasury said today in Washington. Monthly foreign investment flows dropped $66.6 billion in May, compared with a decline of $38 billion in April.
While Treasuries have been a haven for investors during the credit crisis, emerging economic powers question the dollar’s status as the U.S. runs up record debt to fund the economic recovery. At a Group of Eight summit last week in Italy, China repeated calls for a “diversified and rational” global currency regime. Russian and Brazilian officials said the issue may come up at the wider G-20 forum in Pittsburgh in September.
“We still need the foreign capital,” David Wyss, chief economist at Standard & Poor’s in New York, said before the report. “We’re still borrowing. It’s important to see a significant inflow.”
China, the biggest foreign holder of U.S. Treasuries, increased its holdings of government notes and bonds by $38 billion to $801.5 billion. Holdings in Hong Kong also increased. Japan, the second-biggest international investor, reduced its total by $8.7 billion to $677.2 billion. Russia’s holdings fell $12.5 billion to $124.5 billion. Holdings at Caribbean banking centers also fell, declining by $9.9 billion to $194.8 billion.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aL8XrkfDKaVY
In flows from foreign nations have once again turned negative. This is not good. Treasury is going to have to fund about $1.7 trillion short fall. Where is the money going to come from? Will the foreign countries that have thus far supported the USD continue to do so at the detriment to their own people and economies; or will they say, ENOUGH we will spend our savings on ourselves and stop supporting the US? My guess is the Fed will buy the debt and the US will no longer be able to export its inflation. Get ready, higher prices are coming….much higher prices.
Bernie: “Thanks for admitting gold is worthless.” Please take your meds….PLEASE.
While many of the homeless of the past few decades were mentally ill, alcoholics, or just plain lazy, a new type of homeless is now being seen. Homeless families are beginning to roam streets or live in cars and tents. As the US dollar continues its trek down, the economy will worsen as prices rise. Within the next 5 years many of us will not recognize the US we once knew.
The problem most of us will have is that we will be in much worse financial shape than we are now. It will be more difficult for us to lend a helping hand when we too have our hands out. Churches will suffer as tithes and offerings decline. Missionaries will be coming home as churches find it difficult to support them and the declining dollar will raise the cost of living for all people overseas. I expect many church with crushing debt loads will be closing their doors.
For those of you that think God will protect His children, guess again. Like I have outlined, God’s children have been disobedient. If the cost of Gasoline goes to US$10 do not expect to pull up to a filling station, prove you are a Christian and expect the attendant to sell you gas for $2.50. When interest rates soar to double digits and businesses take it on the chin, do not expect a company to hire you just because you are a Christian. When the government implements price controls and there are shortages don’t expect to see a store clerk suddenly produce that loaf of bread you needed and then sell it to for $1.25 instead of the going price of $5.
When the unemployment rate reaches the teens (true unemployment will be at Great Depression levels) expect to counted among the unemployed unless you have certain skills in high demand. The unemployment rate will be the same for Christians as it is for the rest of the population.
Finally, when the government announces a new currency and the exchange rate is announced, do not expect to get a better deal because you are a Christian. If the rate is 10 old dollars for 1 new one, then you will get 1 new for every 10 old you turn in. God is not going to give you an extra 9.
When all this takes place in the next decade, you will then come to realize why God said, “Diverse weights and diverse measures, both alike, are an abomination unto the Lord.”
[High-pitched old lady voice]Now, now, children…mind your manners and play nice!
Bernie-”Your what many people refer to as a born loser.”
Baggins-”Great, now that you don’t have a brain no one can talk to you.”
Mike-”Bernie you have to get back on your meds…. you are hallucinating again.”
It’s alright to think it, but maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to say it.
When someone who vexes you resorts to insulting remarks…..just blow it off. They are only words on a computer screen, it’s not as if some ass is yelling in your face poking you in the forehead to emphasize every word he spits out. Don’t loose yourself in the passion, that’s probably what your “opponent” would want anyway[smile], and we alllllllll know how easily these posts can be misread out of the context or emotion that they were typed in, don’t we. So if your just joking with an insult, you need to find some way to make it completely unambiguous, and if your pissed off at someone, you need to remember that your “opponent” will try to interpret EVERYTHING you reply back with as defensive, whiny, and weak, so you’ll have to find some way to work around this, if you can. Unfortunately we can’t say everything we want here to those who annoy us, BUT, if your crafty enough, perhaps you won’t have to say anything of an insulting nature. Know what I mean?
Just an idea.
Mike: ”You love to dish it out but you cannot take it. Christians on this blog have tried reasoning with you, but all we get back is personal attacks. Before I started responding to you, you mocked and ridiculed people of faith. The mean-spirited one, Sir, was you.”
ABSOLUTELY! I would like to add that I find this sad more than anything else, that someone should take such time and effort into ”trying” to destroy what others believe in with all their heart. His heart on the other hand is open to all that read his posts on here….there lies the evidence of a completely closed and deluded mind. Again…..VERY sad.
Mike: ”My hostility is the damage these Bible Prophets do.”
You need to forgive and forget. Hostility does not belong between brothers and sisters whatever the reason. Grace brother….grace.
”They and other “Christian” snake oil salesman have filled their pockets while robbing God’s people. They continue to promote the lies and profit from them.”
I agree with the money making thing…….but I always thot that was an American thing!
And I found out about all the false prophets and teachers not long ago….it was quite shocking………and I usually contact THEM about it (but whether they actually get my e-mail I don’t know). I had to cancel a trip to Israel and lose a deposit over two of these false (rich, multi-million dollar mansion owners) prophets when I found all this out, they were to be guests at this trip. You see I DO take a stand when needed. I am against all that money-making machine just like you and refuse to be involved with them atall. But I have yet to believe that Hal Lindsey is in that category. Maybe more info from you would set me straight.
Bernie:” Answer: I have already crushed you and your stupid arguments in the field of intellectual honesty, a subject you know absolutely nothing about.”
Your arrogance is unbounded…..I think you really believe what you say….which is all the sadder.
How happy are you thinking that you are ”crushing” our ‘’stupid arguments”? Are you TRULY happy in life doing this?
Mike: ”What I do know is whether there is or isn’t a Pretrib. Rapture or a future antichrist, Jesus told us to live our lives for God’s glory and preach the Gospel.”
Exactly true.
”He did not tell us to go around trying to guess His return and yet that is exactly what so many preachers do.”
I agree.
”I get angry when Christian leaders make a mockery of God’s word, just as Jesus got angry with those that had turned God’s house into a den of thieves.”
So do I.
” Bottomline: The Pretrib. Rapture has made millions for those that promote it. ”
As I said before, the money-making to me seems an American thing……but not all do it for that.
And other view points have also written books etc. and made money from it…..right? It is not all Pre-trib that is making money as far as I can see. And as an aside, I do get fedup with ministries that offer you a gift…..then ask for a ”donation” of so much money. To me this is just the same as asking for the cost of the book or whatever it is. One day we shall all have to face Christ with what we have done as Christians…..all of us. May we seek to bring glory to Him alone….ALWAYS. The most important thing to Him right now is for us to bring lost souls to Him.
John:” [High-pitched old lady voice]Now, now, children…mind your manners and play nice!”
Ha ha ha ha! You are always there to bring them in line! (And bring some humour into the madness!) I do think things are getting a little out of hand, and that is why I decided not to continue the pointless rhetoric with Bernie. He is so infuriating, it brings the worst out of us…..but that’s no excuse for acting like him…..I would encourage restraint….TOTAL……Bernie fuels his anger with others arguments, in this case I would advise my brothers and sisters to ignore him from now on. This is not something I like to do but I think in this instance it is really necessary. (NO doubt Bernie will have something to say about it tho).
PS: What was the question again? (Sneaky grin).
mherman: “But I have yet to believe that Hal Lindsey is in that category. Maybe more info from you would set me straight.
”
I do not know Hal Lindsey’s heart. Maybe his intentions are good. Maybe he started out with good intentions, believing that he had the key to Bible prophecy. All I know is that he has profited handsomely from his CONSTANT predictions of the end times. So have those connected to the Left Behind series.
I do believe Hal Lindsey has been divorced at least 2 times, maybe 3. All this while preaching Jesus. The fruit in my opinion is a bit rotten. Yet he is still held up as a model of a Christian disciple.
I do know this, if the energy and expense of promoting “the end of time” had gone into preaching the world of God maybe more people would have shown interest in scripture.
In my case, the Hal Lindsey’s of the world provided me a platform to ridicule God’s people and the Bible (before I was saved). In my eyes all Christians were the caricature represented by bearded old man carrying the sign “The end is near.”
mherman: “I do think things are getting a little out of hand, and that is why I decided not to continue the pointless rhetoric with Bernie.”
The problem with Bernie is the hardness of his heart. I must thank him for explaining a part of the Bible I’ve struggled with since I came to Christ. I’ve asked preachers and students and instructors at our Bible college to explain the first part of Exodus, when Pharoah’s heart was hardened. Bernie is the only one to have adequately explained these chapters in the Bible. Thank you Bernie.
Mike: I don’t know anything about Hal’s private life and we are not in a position to judge his two divorces either (if in fact that is true).
If there were no false prophets and greedy ministers, I’m sure that people like Bernie would still find something to ridicule Christians and Christianity about. This is why the Church needs a revival, to turn back to God with all their heart, soul and mind…..and to live the way God intended us to live. I pray for that day to come soon….then maybe the ridicule will cease.
And you accept Bernie’s ”wisdom” about Exodus, while he pulls the Bible to pieces and tells us most of the people in it didn’t exist? The source of this enlightenment is not exactly kosher is it?
Mike: I think I mistook what you said about Pharaohs hard heart!
I get the picture!
mherman, Here is some interesting info on Hal the end of the world is coming Lindsey:
Hal Lindsey is currently married to his fourth wife, having divorced his previous three. On the back cover of the sixth printing of his 1974 book, There’s a New World Coming, is a picture of Lindsey with his second wife, Jan. (Jan is the mother of Hal’s three grown daughters.) He also dedicates the book to “my best pal, my wife Jan …” However, “best pal” Jan is gone from the back cover of the book’s 1984 “updated” edition, as is the dedication to her. A later Lindsey’ book, Planet Earth–2000 A.D. (18 million in circulation as of 1/95), carries a picture of Hal and his third wife, Kim, who is approximately 25 years his junior. (Kim is the sister of author Johanna Michaelsen, and the sister-in-law of Tetelestai Center’s Associate Pastor, Randy Michaelsen.) After dumping Kim, Hal is now married to wife #4, JoLyn, a member of Tetelestai and in a Bible class taught by Lindsey when she was evidently “discovered” by Hal.
Here are some comments that in my opinion demonstrate the great harm by the end time promoters:
Hal Lindsey quotes:
(On Gog and Magog)
“The current build-up of Russian ships in the Mediterranean serves as another significant sign of the possible nearness of Armageddon” (The Late Great Planet Earth, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1970, p. 145-146)
“Dr. Cummings, writing in 1864, said, “This king of the North I conceive to be the autocrat of Russia.. that Russia occupies a place, and a very momentous place, in the prophetic word has been admitted by almost all expositors.” (ibid., p. 52)
“When the Russians invade the Middle East with amphibious and mechanized land forces, they will make a ‘blitzkreig’ type of offensive through the area.”
(On the fall of Russia, in 1989)
“But world domination — as Ezekiel makes clear — was never in the script for Russia!” (italics in original, Cited in Pate and Haines, p. 138)
Ammendments, and still talking! Wow, man!
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A Hal Lindsey defender:
I do not agree with everything that Hal Lindsey says. However, he is one of the leaders in Bible prophecy and many people who follow Bible prophecy want to know what he says about world events. The fact that the Lord did not come as soon as he expected only makes His coming that much sooner now. Things might not happen quite like Hal Lindsey expects them to happen but I do not think they will happen quite like any other Bible prophecy teacher expects them to happen either. Love or hate the Late Great Planet Earth it woke people up and many got saved through the message in his book.
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Critic:
Wow, man! After knowing that Mr. Lindsey has been proven false, you defend him. I’m out of here.
also:
Open your eyes and observe the statements. Apparently you adhere to Hal because he still says what you like to hear. You are so obvious.
Hal makes money! Hal continues because he will not admit error. He just changes his statements! And folks like you buy his books.
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It is not just Hal but all those preachers that continue with this madness. The Pretrib Rapture sells, on all levels, because it plays right into our flesh. We will be the ones, the privileged class sitting up in heaven watching the chaos and destruction on earth during the Tribulation. We Christians will then be the elite few Jesus saves from a hell on earth.
If nothing else, it tickles the ears of the believers and pastors use it to draw people into the church.
Hal Lindsey is just one of far too many that bring ridicule on Christ’s Church by their constant drum beat that the end is coming. Of course when the end does not come, we get the “well it just means that it is closer than it was yesterday.”
In a way, I cannot blame Bernie for thinking Christians are just a bunch of baffoons that believe any nonsense preached from the pulpit. I have witnessed to several atheist and nearly everyone, if not everyone of them bring up the stupidity of the end times. When I have explained what I believe is proper hermeneutics, they generally stop snickering and I have actually had one tell me, “you are the first Christian to give a logical explanation of the Bible and why you believe the way you do.”
mherman, I firmly….FIRMLY believe that the Pretrib. Rapture DOES GREAT HARM TO THE CHURCH AND TO THE GOSPEL. It brings no one to Christ as once all the prophecies claimed by it prove false, then there is a great falling away. Anyone that believes the scriptures because someone preached a coming Armaggedon loses faith when it does not happen. Better to teach that Bible prophecy is accurate because things predicted actually happened exactly the way it explained before hand. Jesus said He would return (in judgment) before the generation listening to him passed away. 40 years later, before that generation passed, He returned in judgment as the Roman Army destroyed the temple. Prophecy given, prophecy fulfilled. He also told the disciples that they would be flogged and killed. There would be a false prophets, antichrist claiming to be Him. All he said in the Olivet Discourse came to pass just as he said. Everything predicted in the Book of Daniel regarding Christ happen just as he said it would and right on schedule. Ezekiel’s prophecy in Chapters 37 – 39 relate to events in the book of Ester.
This is why I call the Pretrib Rapture GARBAGE. Like garbage it stinks up the Word of God and makes a mockery of Christ’s church.
I challenge you to take the Bible and walk someone through the Pretribulational Rapture ideology. I bet neither you or anyone else can do it while using proper Biblical hermeneutics. You will find yourself imposing facts into scripture that are not there. For example, between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy you will have to insert a 2000+ year church age. I’m telling you, you can’t explain the Pretrib Rapture without twisting the Bible like a pretzel and cutting an pasting different chapters and verses. Most of all you will not find any mention what-so-ever of a rebuilt temple in the NT. The rebuilt temple is always taken from the OT and that one has to be Herod’s temple which was destroyed in 70 AD.
mherman: “I don’t know anything about Hal’s private life and we are not in a position to judge his two divorces either (if in fact that is true).” He has been divorced 3 times and is now on his 4th wife. I know sin when I see it, and what Hal has done as a Christian is sin. His third wife was 25 years his junior. These are the facts.
mherman: “If there were no false prophets and greedy ministers, I’m sure that people like Bernie would still find something to ridicule Christians and Christianity about.”
True, but why give them the ammo to shoot at us. But more important is the fact that many are turned away from the Gospel whenever we get into,”the is coming….get ready for Armaggedon…the antichrist is alive and on earth now (a claim made for 2000 years)”
Think about this; when you put on a clowns costume, you had better expect people to laugh at you and not take you seriously. The Pretribulational Rapture in Christianity’s clown suit.
mherman, remember that after writing “The Late Great Planet Earth” Hal said if I am wrong then I am a bum. Well he was wrong and continues to one of the leading Christian prophets. What does the Bible say about false prophets? Oh, yeh, mess up one time and you are a false prophet. What should we do with false prophets? Stone them to death. We shouldn’t do that now, but silencing them is a good idea. How do you do that? Don’t buy their books and don’t listen to them or those that preach what they preach. Do we do that? No, the continue to write books and produce movies and we continue to support them. Are we being obedient or disobedient to our Lord?
The way I see it, if you love God you obey Him…period end of statement. Disobedience calls into question the degree of your love, does it not?
Looks like more and more people globally are seeking the safe refuge of gold…what God provided mankind to use as money.
(Comment: Apply a little logic here. Paper exchanges are making moves towards settlement in paper products while physical depositories are reaching maximum capacity. That can only mean the exchange warehouses cannot stand a physical audit and do not have the gold to cover the short interest.
The real question is if this isn’t a “Round Robin Ponzi” because logically the EFT cannot be holding significant physical gold, it is paper as well. Therefore Alchemy is real with one rub: you turn paper into gold and it turns back into paper.)
Swiss banks running out of storage space for gold bullion
Worries about the economy and the success in marketing gold ETFs has seen Swiss banks finding difficulty in meeting secure storage requirements for gold bullion.
Author: Lawrence Williams
Posted: Friday , 17 Jul 2009
In a note entitled No more space for Gold Bars, Swiss news website 20 Minuten Online reports that Swiss banks are running out of secure storage space for gold bullion held by investors and institutions. Fears of hyperinflation, the economic downturn and the success of gold index funds (ETFs), which are supported by physical gold, has led to a run on precious metals investment – and in gold in particular, and in the necessary secure storage space in which to hold it..
One Swiss bank, earlier this year, reported that it was having to relocate some of its stored silver bullion to another site to make room for gold. The Zurich Kantonal bank put this down to the success of its gold ETF.
The website reports another Swiss investment banker despairing “We have the need to store more gold for our clients but are finding it difficult to find secure storage facilities”. Gold storage makes high demands on security which is what is making the gold holding task more difficult. Few banks will divulge exactly where their gold is stored for security reasons.
Another banker reported that his bank still had space but that it is beginning to run out.
Some of the problems are being handled by improving the storage systems in existing space. As one banker commented “A 12.5 kilo gold bar only occupies about the same amount of space as a tetrapak of milk”.
While the big U.S. based ETF, the SPDR Gold Trust has recently seen a relatively small decline in its gold holdings with some investors seeking better returns in the markets, the ever-cautious Swiss seem to be seeing continuing growth in locally managed ETFs. A recent report noted that Swiss Bank, Julius Baer, for example, was still seeing a 3.3% growth in its gold ETF in the current week. And even though the Swiss Central Bank has been selling gold via the Central Bank Gold Agreement, it still holds 38% of its foreign exchange reserves in the yellow metal.
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page34?oid=86392&sn=Detail
Mike: I still hold firmly to the truth that the Rapture will happen before the Great Tribulation (Jacobs Trouble) but I will agree that Hal’s witness as a Christian let alone a ”prophet” (of whatever sort) has been lost in my eyes. I cannot judge his life, but I would certainly not take anything he says with much credibility from now on with what you have told me. This brings me no pleasure to say so, and I hope it brings you no pleasure that I have come to this sorry conclusion. I have found, over the last couple of years or so, many in Christian ministries that are in question as to their veracity, integrity and humility. This has been a shock and quite upsetting to find, but it cannot be too much of a surprise today, when Satan is doing his utmost to cause harm within the Body of Christ. I don’t know if the false teachers and false prophets within the Christian Church know what they are doing, or whether they are completely deceived. But we need to pray as never before that truth will triumph over error and lies.
I have been shocked yet again this week to hear of a well known worship leader who has stumbled into the sin of adultery. It is SO SO sad, and SO SO hurtful to Gods heart……but we as Christ’s children must not be the one to point a finger at them…..God will be their judge. There but for the grace of God go I!! I am just thankful that God has kept me from wandering from His path by the hard circumstances of my life. Let us pray…..pray as never before, and not just criticise.
Thankyou for bringing it to my attention.
mherman: “This brings me no pleasure to say so, and I hope it brings you no pleasure that I have come to this sorry conclusion.”
As a Christian I always celebrate Truth. Stu’s program is Truth Talk Live. Jesus claimed to “The Truth.” God is truth and light. The truth sets us free.
One of the reasons I provide evidence to support what I believe is because I love TRUTH. Satan is called the Deceiver. Now I do not claim to be the bearer of all truth. I take evidence / facts and from there use my God-given reason to ascertain the truth. When new facts are presented, I alter my beliefs related to those facts. So when I say that our monetary system is doomed to failure and goes completely against the Word of God, I have facts to back up what I believe to be the truth.
Unfortunately this is not the case with most human beings. Most of us are married to a certain set of ideas and we stick to them even when the evidence suggests we are wrong.
Mike: Me too. And when the evidence is convincing I will accept it. And until God shows me other wise I believe what I believe about the Rapture and Second Coming.
mherman: “I still hold firmly to the truth that the Rapture will happen before the Great Tribulation (Jacobs Trouble)” I challenge you to take the Bible and walk someone through the Pretrib Rapture ideology. You do not have to do it on this board as it would take a great deal of time. Just sit down with your Bible and try to prove the rapture. You can start with 1Thess.4. Is that a rapture or verse or is that just describing what Christ’s coming at the end of history when all the nations will be judged and we will all stand before the Lord in the last judgment. Where the passage states we shall meet Him in the air and forever be with Him is a picture of a returning victorious leader that is met by the people outside the city gates and then is escorted in a grand procession. Meeting Him in the air means just that. But start with this passage or the Olivet discourse and using proper hermenutics see if you can describe the Pretribulational Rapture WITHOUT inserting things that are not there.
mherman: “Mike: Me too. And when the evidence is convincing I will accept it. And until God shows me other wise I believe what I believe about the Rapture and Second Coming.”
How do you expect God to show you?
Mike: By His Spirit through His Word, how else?
I believe in the Second Coming but not in a Third. Jesus will not come to Rapture us out, then return to reign 1000 years where there will be sacrifices in a rebuilt Temple as the dispensationalists describe. The Second coming will be it. History comes to an end. Those that accepted Christ, past and present at the time, will be resurrected to eternal life with the Lord, while all others will get their wish and live apart from the Lord.
mherman: “Mike: By His Spirit through His Word, how else?” Then accept my challenge and see if you can walk someone through the Pretribulational Rapture Ideology. If I am not mistaken you will need to reference Matt. 24, Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Jeremiah.
Mike: His Second Coming is to the earth, but the Rapture (and He doesn’t come back to the earth) is for the catching away of His Bride the Church. The Rapture is secret, the Second coming to earth is seen by all. Read Rev. 19, it speaks of Him coming with an army…..robed in white linen…which is the righteousness of the saints. WE are coming back with Him…..so how can we do that if He hadn’t taken us up earlier?
Mike: I have charts that walk me through the scriptures from the very beginning to the very end…..I could not do it without reference to that (apart from my age, I couldn’t remember it all off by heart!)
mherman, we are called to give a REASON for the hope that lies within us. We are not call to give a FEELING. This means that we should be able to answer questions regarding our beliefs. So if someone asks me (an issue to deal with when witnessing to Jehovah Witnesses) to prove the deity of Christ, I can do it. Verse by verse I can show where in the OT and the NT, Christ’s deity is never in question. Yes I have my notes that I refer to, but I can do it. All I am asking you to do is to take you Bible and your charts and walk yourself or someone else through the Pretrib. Rapture dispensational ideology. That’s all.
Just about everyone (I actually cannot think of anyone that hasn’t) I have ever met that I have asked to show me the Rapture goes to 1 Thess. 4. I am willing to bet that your flip chart on the Rapture has the verses in 1Thess.4 regarding Christ’s coming. It is for everyone and everything I have ever read on the Rapture one of the parts of the Bible used. Yet, you rightfully state, “The Rapture is secret….” Well 1Thess.4 is far from secret. It is pretty noisy in my opinion.
I must remind you that when you walk through the verses in the Bible that pertain to the Pretrib Rapture ideology, you cannot put things in the Bible that aren’t there. For example if you refer to the 70 weeks of Daniel, no fair putting in a church age between the 69th and 70th week unless there is some reference to it. In Matthew 24, when Jesus speaks of “this generation” using the same words for “this generation” everywhere else and meaning the generation to which Jesus is speaking; you cannot make it say “that generation.” This generation means this generation everywhere else in Matthew and the words are identical in the original Greek. This is what I mean when you try to explain the Rapture, Armaggedon, the Tribulation, the Antichrist, etc.
The problem with Bernie is the hardness of his heart. I must thank him for explaining a part of the Bible I’ve struggled with since I came to Christ. I’ve asked preachers and students and instructors at our Bible college to explain the first part of Exodus, when Pharoah’s heart was hardened. Bernie is the only one to have adequately explained these chapters in the Bible. Thank you Bernie.
Answer: That’s funny. I don’t remember anyone asking my opinion about that part of the Bible or even discussing the Old Testament let alone anyone agreeing with anything I might have said about it. Are you sure it was I? Can you direct me to the particular post where I explained the why Yahweh hardened Pharaoh’s heart? The reason was of course that the hardening prolonged the plagues and ensured that Egypt would suffer the punishment it deserved. Also Egypt would witness Yahweh’s power. This would include his power over the Egyptian deities, which were thought to really exist but be relatively ineffectual.
What Bible college has teachers who can’t interpret this part of the Old Testament may I ask? The Bible is interpreted differently at Bible colleges than it is in seminaries or Christian colleges that’s for sure. The Bible is history at a Bible college, tradition at a conservative college or seminary and mythology at many liberal Christian colleges and seminaries. That is the view on the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart that the professor and the textbooks of the Old Testament class I had in college gave. This class required no previous study of Hebrew, no previous study of the Old Testament at all and covered the entire Old Testament. So it was certainly not on the level of the OT classes in seminaries or even the ones in Bible colleges.
One of the most interesting things I learned was that there were different traditions about the same stories. Sometimes both traditions were intertwined in one story like we have present in the Noah’s ark saga. Other times we have the same story being told or event being described twice. Or there are different traditions about say who built Heshbon, where Rachel was buried, what Moses’ father-in-law’s name was, what tribe Samuel was from or even who actually killed Goliath.
There are different traditions about God also. I learned there is another God in the Bible who does not deal in salvation. This is the God who trusts, loves and believes in man and warned him against pettiness and legalism. Against making predictions too by the way. He is the God who is only visible beyond the myth of salvation to which weak men have reduced him.
Mike: I wrote a lot out and then pressed the wrong button somewhere and it’s all gone!!
(And I’m not kidding….this happens to me occasionally, and it is very annoying!) so I just can’t go through all that again. But suffice it to say, I too can explain to J.W’s where they are wrong with their belief in Who Jesus is and the Trinity, because I studied their doctrines at length.
For the Rapture and the Second Coming, I have still much study to do, but I am convinced as to what I believe, but will continue to look at the subject with the help of the leading of the Holy Spirit through the scriptures. I’m sure you have read many books and web sites on this subject and if they havn’t been able to convince you of a Pretribulation Rapture, then my effort would not convince you either.
Bernie: I may be wrong, but I think Mike was being facetious……..it’s nothing you said.
Post 103 – mherman: In the scriptures, no other source is acceptable. And was that book FOR or AGAINST it? It does make a difference how the TRUTH is presented and from whom. It is called BIAS.
It’s against it. The pre-trib theory doesn’t make sense.
Mike and anyone else who is interested: “Pre-Tribulation Planning For a Post-Tribulation Rapture”
The book is offered on the internet – from the creator of http://www.tribwatch.com/ – to download a pdf go to lulu.com and search for 433092 – it will give you the option of buying a copy or downloading for free. You can also read the .html versions on the tribwatch website. I wonder what Mike and others think of it. The author investigates possible signs for the end times, and the forces working behind the scenes in the world. He has even made his best guess about when Armageddon will occur (and provides his reasoning), but he is very clear in pointing out that all of his findings are subject to error and therefore revision. It is also quite a process he goes through, untangling all of the arguments of the pre-tribbers.
Post 147 – Bernie: I learned there is another God in the Bible who does not deal in salvation
God has always dealt in salvation (forgiveness). Man fails at being more than selfish (consistently, never never). It means man is untrustworthy, and will always need forgiveness/salvation. If Bernie cannot recognize his failures, then he will not recognize his need for forgiveness/salvation. Have you now put on sheep’s clothing, wolf?
Not all people are untrustworthy and selfish. Intelligent people realize there are real world consequences for untrustworthiness and selfishness. The less intelligent among us don’t so they need imaginary consequences to keep them in line. We call those people religious.
I recognize my failures. People who don’t ever fail just aren’t trying to get ahead in life. Successful people have a history of failures. Unsuccessful people are afraid of failure so they never try to get ahead. That’s life dude.
Mike,
This is an interesting discussion – one in which it is very difficult to be rigidly dogmatic. You have very solid thinkers in almost every millennial camp. The verses that talk about “this generation” not passing away until … (like Matt. 24:34) have always somewhat puzzled me (and others, I see). I have looked into it a bit, and it seems that even the phrase “this generation” can be used more broadly that just referring to the people alive while Christ was walking the earth. For example, “This generation is an evil generation: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah” (Luke 11:29). Surely that “generation” was not the only “evil generation” that tends to seek signs.
In reference to the 70 weeks, you said, “no fair putting in a church age between the 69th and 70th week unless there is some reference to it.” Did you mean in the passage itself, or elsewhere in Scripture? There are other OT passages that obviously have time gaps in them (when we compare Scripture with Scripture), but you would never know from an examination of the passage in isolation. Take, for example, Isaiah 61:1-2. When Christ quotes this passage in reference to himself in Luke 4 he stops in the middle of verse 2. The obvious implication is that the “day of the vengeance of our God” has not come yet. Currently, we are still living in “the acceptable year of the Lord.”
I tend to be premil at this point. I have not solidly come to any conclusion on the rapture – the timing anyway. But we need to deal gently with each other when talking about eschatology. None of the camps are without their problems. There are some things we can be absolutely sure about, like the bodily return of Christ, the judgment, eternal punishment, the new heavens and news earth … But we shouldn’t separate over the millennial details. It does make for good discussions though.
mherman: “Bernie: I may be wrong, but I think Mike was being facetious……..it’s nothing you said.”
Thank you for explaining it to him. To help just a bit:
Pharoah saw God’s power. Half the plagues would have convinced even the most stubborn of monarchs, but not Pharaoh. So why was Pharaoh so hard headed / hard hearted? God had to be part of that hardening, which of course the Bible states clearly. Therefore, since Bernie is much like Pharaoh, he is also living testament to the existence of God.
JD42: ““This generation is an evil generation: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah” (Luke 11:29). Surely that “generation” was not the only “evil generation” that tends to seek signs.”
True, but you could say that about every verse in the Bible. The Bible is not written “to” us it is written “for” us. In the whole gospel of Matthew every use of “this generation” in the original Greek means the generation to which Jesus is speaking EXCEPT when it comes to the Olivet Discourse. You must also look at how words are used in context. The whole Chapter starts with the Disciples asking two questions. 1. When will this event take place (the destruction of the temple)? 2. What will be the sign of your coming? Jesus then begins to answer their questions and repeatedly in the Chapter he says “YOU”. Who is the you He is addressing? Dispensationists seem to believe that “You” means us…..they have believed it meant “us” even though the “us” of the past are dead.
JD42: “In reference to the 70 weeks, you said, “no fair putting in a church age between the 69th and 70th week unless there is some reference to it.” Did you mean in the passage itself, or elsewhere in Scripture? There are other OT passages that obviously have time gaps in them (when we compare Scripture with Scripture), but you would never know from an examination of the passage in isolation.”
Of course we do not look at passages in isolation but that is exactly what dispensationalists do. I am no Bible scholar….no degree at least in the Bible studies. I interpret scripture first by accepting the obvious statements exactly as they are written. For example: When the Bible states Noah’s, Adam’s, Methusala’s, etc. years were XXX, I accept that to mean they lived those many years. I also see how the words are used in the text and their relationship to the culture in which they were written. So when Abraham divides the sacrificed animals in his dream where God walks between them, I know that oaths / contracts were sealed this way in Abraham’s day. God had established the covenant with Abraham. Then there is symbolic language in the Bible. Back to the numbers. When the Bible says that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills one has to know what 1000 means. There are numerous references in the Bible to the number 1000. Many of those references are SYMBOLIC. God owning the cattle on 1000 hills does not mean there are 1000 hills with God’s cows on them. It means He owns them all.
If you are going to say that there is a 2000 year gap between the 69th and 70th year why can’t there be a 2000 year or 100 year or 50 year gap between any of the years between 1 and 69. I can play all sorts of games with the Bible and make it say anything I want. I can even prove to you that there are numerous errors and contradictions……seems to me that that is exactly what Bart Ehrman does. Literal interpretation means you interpret passages as the author intended. When you do not aim at this target, you most often miss the meaning. For example:
I can prove to you that Jesus cannot be the Creator God. He does even know His own creation. He said the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds. The mustard seed is not the smallest the orchid seed is. There, Jesus was wrong…He was in error…..He cannot be who He said He was.
Of course I know how to counter the above RIDICULOUS statements.
No one to date has been able to walk me through the Pretrib Rapture ideology without twisting scripture to say what they want it to say and without cutting and pasting passages from all over the Bible that seemed to indicate they were not referencing the distant future but were referencing things that would take place within their epoch of history. For example the great battle of Eze. 37 – 39 is not a future battle as the dispensationists say it is referencing a future battle that then took place in the final chapters of the Book of Ester.
I challenge everyone on this board to walk me through the rapture. Matt. 24 is not a distant future event, it relates to Jesus speaking of His coming in judgment before that generation passes away. Besides, punishing the Jews alive 2000 years after the crucifixion is not exactly Biblical is it? Does God punish the children for the sins of the fathers? And don’t give me that passage that states something to that effect. Nearly all if not all Bible scholars agree that the sins of the father that are passed on to the children is due to children mimicking the behaviors of their parents. So an alcoholic father may influence his children to be alcoholics. The Bible is clear, the father’s sins are to be paid by the father.
In my opinion we will have tribulation. There have always been periods in human history of terrible distress. The Bible guarantees us this. Will we go through 1000 year tribulation? Of course the dark ages lasted hundreds of years. There have been epochs of famine, wide spread disease, wars, etc. The 1919 flu epidemic killed millions….more than were killed in WW I.
JD42: “But we shouldn’t separate over the millennial details. It does make for good discussions though.
I agree. We can discuss the issue and still not divide. My objection is what so many preachers and more and more evangelist are doing with the Rapture. It has become either a money making machine or a story used to “tickle” the ears of believers.
I am fully convinced, by the economic data I review and just plain common sense, that we are headed for an inflation if not hyperinflationary depression. I don’t know exactly how bad it will be but it will be pretty bad. Those that believe it can’t happen here are living in their own dream world. The government is lying to us. When they say, unemployment claims are down, they fail to mention that once your unemployment claims are used up the unemployed are moved to a different program (Unemployment Emergency System). This is the only recession since the Great Depression where every job created in the previous boom has been lost…a complete retracement of all jobs created. I urge people to read Mort Zuckerman’s piece in the Wall Street Journal.
How does this relate to the Rapture. I would say that 3 out 4 Christians I have mentioned the coming crisis to, have said something to the effect, “It all means that Jesus is coming soon, a sign of the end times.” They were more glib and inclined to say this prior to 2007. These days with all the suffering, some are beginning to doubt the Rapture is right around the corner. So instead of preparing for hard times, my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ failed to plan and now they are suffering needlessly. But we are not at the end of the suffering….the suffering has just begun. Just wait until we hit $5, $6, $7, $8 gasoline and a loaf of bread is $4 as unemployment continues to rise along with interest rates. For over 8 years I have been warning that this calamity was coming. I urged people to get out of debt, downsize vehicles, and accumulate gold and silver as long term savings. Most of what I got was:
1. The Rapture is near
2. God will protect His children
3. I would say that less than 5% listened. Of those that did, 1 sold all investment real estate which they owed money, 2 moved money out of the stock market (into bond funds or money market funds within their 401ks) before the big market crash and 3 I know of have been accumulating gold and silver the past 5 years. In the first week of March 2009, I told people with 401ks to get back in the market for a big tradeable rally. Recently I told them to take the money off the table and be invested no more than 50%. I’ve also urged them to invest long term in emerging markets, commodities (especially food and energy), and precious metals.
My point is, that I use common sense and believe what the Bible says. So in Eccl. 1-3, it say that for everything there is a season, I believe it. There are times to own gold and silver and there are times not to. When paper assets have been up for 20 years and hard assets (commodities) have been down for 20 years, it is probably time to change ships. If we have gone through a massive spending boom, the next cycle will be a savings boom. If we had 2 decades of good times, maybe we are in for a decade or more of bad times. When I use this and other Biblical logic with Christians most do not believe it. IT’S IN THE BIBLE and they don’t believe it. I am not talking about worldly people, I am talking about Christians.
Bottomline: The Pretrib Rapture has many problems, most of which it has to do with proper hemaneutics. But, most of my problems with this ideology has to do with the great damage it has done and continues to do to the Church. Because of the Rapture, the Bible has been exposed to needless ridicule and given Christ’s enemies ammo for convincing people that the book is a joke. Just listen to Bernie. He knows…I am sure he loves the Pretrib Rapture folks.
I defy anyone to show me or anyone else the Rapture.
Easy big fellow!
I must have touched a sore spot.
Mike,
So that I understand you, are you saying that it is your position that everything in Matt. 24 was fulfilled in the first century?
JD42: “Easy big fellow!
I must have touched a sore spot.” JD, the Pretrib Rapture is a sore spot with me. As I state before, I made fun of God’s people (before I was saved) and all the talk about the end of the world was an endless source of material for me. I was in undergraduate school in the late 60s and returned to graduate school in the mid 70s.
After accepting Christ at the ripe old age of 49, I tried to accept the Rapture ideology. Evangelist after evangelist that came to my church kept referring to it like it was the Holy Grail. Then in 2002, a visiting preacher who eventually replaced our old preacher who retired, gave an 8 week course on the Rapture in the evening service. I took notes but the more notes I took the more questions I had. It was at that time that I started to research this ideology, I cannot call it doctrine, and the more research I did the more I discovered that it was all a LIE. Now I ask you, who is the Father of Lies?
When I come across people like Bernie, I am reminded of my youth where I was a scoffer. The Rapture gives these people plenty of ammo, while doing great harm to the Church. When Jesus went into the temple the week of the crucifixion, some had hit His sore spot. The money changers are alive and well in the Church, except that this time they are using the Rapture to generate their ill gotten gains and in the process they do not care what harm they do the Church….and they do great harm. I am not angry at mherman, she has been duped. I am angry however, at those that should know better. Even if a preacher or evangelist believes the rapture, Jesus told us to live our lives and not be concerned about His return.
We are to be ready for His return, but that means we are to go about doing the Lords work and living according to His word. WE ARE NOT TO BE WALKING ABOUT LOOKING UP OR JUST SITTING AROUND WAITING FOR JESUS. Yet those that keep saying, “The time is near” are promoting the very behavior Jesus tells us not to engage in. BEING READY MEANS DOING THE LORD’S WILL…BEING OBEDIENT SERVANTS. Yes, the Rapture garbage is a sore spot, not that people believe it, but that people spend so much time promoting it.
In light of all his false prophecies we, many Christians, continue to hold up Hal Lindsey as a great Bible scholar in direct defiance to what the Bible says about false prophets. Hal Lindsey is not only a false prophet but apparently an insatiable womanizer since he is now on his 4th marriage. I wonder if he was playing footsie with wife number 2 while married to wife number 1 or if he was doing the same with wife number 3 (25 years his junior) while married to wife number 2. Then of course one has to ask how many other women there were in between that Hal never married. I am not accusing here, but those that represent God’s word need to be beyond reproach……Hal has reached the level of cockroach.
JD: “So that I understand you, are you saying that it is your position that everything in Matt. 24 was fulfilled in the first century?” Yes. All that is left is for Christ’s enemies to be made a footstool and Jesus to return in the final judgment.
1. Wars and rumors of war was a significant prophecy in Christ’s days since this was age of the Pax Romana, the Roman peace. Yet in years following the crucifixion there were rebellions in Gaul, Britianny, and Judea.
2. Earthquakes and famines were also noted in this time period. A great famine hit Rome during the reign of Caligula. An earthquake nearly destroyed the entire city of Pompeii….it set in motion the volcanic eruption of 79AD. The Book of Acts mentions some of these events. There was also recorded earthquake activity around the region of Asia minor the site of one of the world’s fault lines.
3. The disciples were persecuted and all were killed with the exception of John.
4. There was a great falling away as the persecuation of the church continued during Nero’s reign. Not all Christians remained loyal. Children turned in their parent to the authorities (Both Rome and the Jewish authorities were involved in persecuting Christ’s church.)
5. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. just as “this generation” which Jesus was speaking to was about to expire. Prior to the destruction of the Temple (the only rebuilt temple mentioned in the Bible since no mention of a rebuilt temple appears in the NT), there was a near civil war within the City of Jerusalem. Josephus, writes of the on going war between the Zealots and the Priests. Idumeans (sp?) the old Edomites, were actually allowed into the city to support the Zealots. Priests were murdered and the alter was desecrated by some of these people. (read Josephus, History of the Jewish Wars.)
6. Speaking of Josephus, he wrote in his History of the Jewish Wars, that many people reported seeing signs in the heavens prior to Jerusalem’s fall. Josephus even states that he was reluctant to mention these signs except there were so many reports from so many different parts of Judea.
7. If Jesus coming in clouds is a reference to Judgment, then you could say that Jerusalem was indeed judged.
8. When Jesus spoke of the “end of the world” he was not taking of the end of the planet. The original Greek is aion, which means the end of the age. With the destruction of the temple, the sacrificial age came to an end. God’s people were now made up of all believers, past present and future. The wild vine of the gentiles would be grafted into the root of Israel, which is just the opposite of what a farmer does.
9. The Gospel was spoken throughout the “world”, which once again does not mean the planet but “the known world – Roman empire” since the Greek word is oikomene (sp?) means the known world or Roman Empire.
10. The sun darken, the moon turning to blood, stars falling to earth are ALL SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE. Just go to the OT for similar language used to describe a great turning of events. It is similar to our use of “Earth shattering news.” A wooden literal interpretation of this statement leads one to believe the earth shatters. The best example of Apocalyptic language is Psalm 18. If one reads this Psalm with a wooden literal interpretation then the Bible LIES. None of what takes place in this psalm ever happened, at least not exactly as described. Just do a Bible search on “clouds, blood, moon, sun, stars.” Concentrate your search on the symbolic usages.
I could go on but I think this should answer your question. One other thing, one of the things the dispensationalist bring up is the mark of the beast. You will not be able to buy or sell unless you have the mark of the beast. They keep referring to embedded chips. It use to be credit cards and before they existed it was some sort of tatoo. The mark of the Beast on the hand and on the forehead is SYMBOLIC. The OT Jews took it literally and actually put little boxes on their foreheads and wrists with scriptures in them to symbolize they belonged to God.
Those that have the mark of the Lamb on their foreheads and hands means they think like Christ and act like Christ. The mark of the Beast means you think like beast (controlled by Satan) and you behave like one of his children.
Bernie: ”The less intelligent among us don’t so they need imaginary consequences to keep them in line. We call those people religious.”
What’s your IQ Bernie? Mine is 138. I’v been told I could get into MENSA with it!!
mherman: “What’s your IQ Bernie? Mine is 138. I’v been told I could get into MENSA with it!!
”
mherman, do you realize that Bernie’s IQ could get him into the 5h grade. Beat that.
I’m sorry Bernie, that was ugly on my part. I should not have written what I wrote. Please forgive.
JD42: ” I have looked into it a bit, and it seems that even the phrase “this generation” can be used more broadly that just referring to the people alive while Christ was walking the earth.”
Yes, it can. And I ask myself why Jesus went on to say ”till all these things be fulfilled.”
Were all the things Jesus mentioned fulfilled then? I don’t think so!
”There are other OT passages that obviously have time gaps in them (when we compare Scripture with Scripture), but you would never know from an examination of the passage in isolation. ”
That’s exactly correct. A good example of this is where Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah the prophet in the synagogue (Luke 4 v 18-19). He stopped at ”To preach the acceptable year of the Lord” and closed the book! He left off the end of the sentence…”and the day of vengeance of our God….” (Isa: 61 v 1-2).
Why? Because He was fulfilling the first part there and then, but the second part was for another time to be fulfilled!
AH! I see you quoted that aswell and I didn’t read that bit until now! Coincidence? Mmmm.
” But we need to deal gently with each other when talking about eschatology.”
I totally agree. Some seem to overflow with a great deal of passion….the wrong sort! And what I read in your post #155 says it all!
” But we shouldn’t separate over the millennial details. It does make for good discussions though.”
I would like to be able to debate without negative and emotive rhetoric. And Mike had accused me of having too many emotions myself!
But I do hope you will stay around a bit longer JD42! We need more balanced bloggers like you!
Mike: (JD42 said): “So that I understand you, are you saying that it is your position that everything in Matt. 24 was fulfilled in the first century?” (And Mike answered:) Yes. All that is left is for Christ’s enemies to be made a footstool and Jesus to return in the final judgment.
So you think the Tribulation happened then, because Jesus mentioned it before ”this generation shall pass away”.
Mike: #160. This really shows a lack of love and grace.
meherman: “Mike: #160. This really shows a lack of love and grace.” No it shows that the flesh got the best of me. Notice my immediate response once I realized I had sinned. Isn’t that what we are suppose to do.
Mike,
I appreciate your long explanation. I will continue to study these things. As for now, we will have to agree to disagree. I agree that some of the things in Matt. 24 were fulfilled in the first century, just not all. Take, for example, Matt. 24:30, 31, where it says such things as, “all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” And, “He will send his angels with the sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This seems to be describing His glorious return to me. But this doesn’t mean that we can’t enjoy fellowship around the things of God.
Blessings.
mherman: “Were all the things Jesus mentioned fulfilled then? I don’t think so!” It depends. I gave you a response, off the top of my head, that shows that all was fulfilled.
It is interesting that I give an explanation using scripture as to why I believe THE tribulation has already taken place and all that Jesus prophecied happened just as He said it would.
If “this generation” (exact wording in the original Greek text) in every passage of the Book of Matthew meant the generation to which Jesus was speaking; what on earth makes you think that in Matt. 24 it means some future generation.
If I wrote a passage, for example: :The fans went wild when the Gators scored a goal. They jumped up and down as the team was now within a field goal of a victory and a trip to the world championship. None of the fans were sitting in the final minute. In the last ten seconds of the game their beloved gators scored the final goal that took them to the division title. The fans went wild. The fans raced on the field carrying the players on their shoulders.
Now the word “the fans” in every case represents the Gator fans, but I could make a case that “the fans” in the last sentence belong to the losing team. As a matter of fact I could say they are the fans of a team that was watching the game. They could be the fans of a team playing the next evening. I could make them fans of a team in Outer Mongolia.
This is exactly what dispensationalists do with “this generation.” They themselves agree that “this generation in Matt. 23 means the generation that Jesus is speaking to. They agree that “this generation” means the generation Jesus is speaking to in every instance of the Book of Matthew. However, in Matt. 24, this generation means that generation. Why? Because it fits their preconceived notion call the Pretribulational Rapture of the Church.
I provided a step by step reasoning for my beliefs. I’ve done this numerous times before. I have yet to see the dispensationalists do the same.
JD: “Take, for example, Matt. 24:30, 31, where it says such things as, “all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
On the contrary. All the tribes of the earth did mourn. The tribes could be the Jews. Earth does not always mean planet earth, not in the original Hebrew or Greek language just as in our language. For example: When Pearl Buck wrote the book, The Good Earth, she was not writing about the planet.
JD, ” the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” This is judgment language. The Son of Man came on clouds of heaven with POWER and GREAT GLORY. Just as the OT speaks of God doing the same by using one great nation to punish another (especially Israel), the imagery of Jesus coming in clouds fits perfectly.
JD: “He will send his angels with the sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This seems to be describing His glorious return to me. But this doesn’t mean that we can’t enjoy fellowship around the things of God.”
This verse can be explained different ways. I will have to refer to my notes on this one to be exact, but I do believe one probable interpretation is the spreading out of the Gospel after the crucifixion. The angels being sent out, where angels could be the ministers of the Gospel. As they go out they gather the elect…those known to God from the beginning of time who would be saved.
So far I have answered every question regarding the Partial Preterist view. My explanations are logical and follow good hermaneutics. I use scripture to interpret scripture. I refer to history to see if events match up with what I believe. So far I am batting 1000.
Now I challenge the dispensationalists out there to support their point of view.
Jesus prophecy about the temple’s future destruction was well known in the first century. Josephus acted as mediator between Titus and the Jews. The Jews were sure they would be saved, Josephus told them this time God is not coming to your rescue. He along with everyone else was well aware of what Jesus had predicted prior to his crucifixion. When the Roman Army came to town, everyone knew Jesus was exactly who He had said He was. They had killed the holy one of God. Remember the quote of the Jewish people, “let His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children.”
Note: I do not know how it happened but the last paragraph of post #168 should have been the third paragraph. The first three paragraphs should be as follows:
Take, for example, Matt. 24:30, 31, where it says such things as, “all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
On the contrary. All the tribes of the earth did mourn. The tribes could be the Jews. Earth does not always mean planet earth, not in the original Hebrew or Greek language just as in our language. For example: When Pearl Buck wrote the book, The Good Earth, she was not writing about the planet.
Jesus prophecy about the temple’s future destruction was well known in the first century. Josephus acted as mediator between Titus and the Jews. The Jews were sure they would be saved, Josephus told them this time God is not coming to your rescue. He along with everyone else was well aware of what Jesus had predicted prior to his crucifixion. When the Roman Army came to town, everyone knew Jesus was exactly who He had said He was. They had killed the holy one of God. Remember the quote of the Jewish people, “let His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children.”
Mike: #165…You should have thot before you posted. I’v gone as far as typing posts (not many I add) where I’v been nudged in the spirit to tell me that it was not right. You see, we ALL get the feelings sometimes, but it’s what we do with them……resist or let them take over.
Mike,
Relax. I was simply stating that I disagree with you, not asking for another long statement of your beliefs. We don’t see things the same, and that is OK. (I did notice a lot of “could be,” and “can be” in your post.) Others with sound hermeneutics come out differently than you with reference to eschatology. You need to be OK with that and let it lie. And, by the way, I am NOT a dispensationalist.
Mike: ”Of course we do not look at passages in isolation but that is exactly what dispensationalists do”
THIS dispensationalist (though I don’t call myself by any labels…I just believe what the Bible teaches!) does not take passages in isolation, I see the harmony of the scriptures between passages.
And I have just been looking at a book by J. Dwight Pentecost called ”Things to Come”. A study in Biblical Eschatology. There is so much in there that I cannot possibly type it all out here, but when he writes about Pre-Millenial belief, he lists many 1st, 2nd and 3rd century advocates of Pre-Millenialism. And he also points out that, ”on the other side, not a single name can be presented, which (1) can be quoted as positively against us, or (2) which can be cited as teaching, in any shape or sense, the doctrine of our opponents.”
If you can get a copy from your library look on pages 373-376. You will find the lists there.
JD42: #171. Good comment.
JD: “Relax. I was simply stating that I disagree with you, not asking for another long statement of your beliefs. We don’t see things the same, and that is OK. (I did notice a lot of “could be,” and “can be” in your post.”
I’m back from walking my dog at the dog park. Now where were we. Oh yeh, on the subject of “could be and can be”. Here are the two places I used can or could.
The tribes could be the Jews.
JD wrote: “He will send his angels with the sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This seems to be describing His glorious return to me. But this doesn’t mean that we can’t enjoy fellowship around the things of God.”
Mike’s response: “This verse can be explained different ways. I will have to refer to my notes on this one to be exact, but I do believe one probable interpretation is the spreading out of the Gospel after the crucifixion. The angels being sent out, where angels could be the ministers of the Gospel. As they go out they gather the elect…those known to God from the beginning of time who would be saved.”
I did not see any other uses of can or could be. There are times in the Bible where we do not know and therefore are left to guess what could or can be. For example: After Cain killed Abel he was sent off and married other woman. The Bible is not specific in mentioning exactly where these woman came from. Adam and Eve were the first 2 humans on earth and they had Cain and Abel first. Since the Bible does not specifically state who these woman are we say the could be the other off spring of Adam and Eve and therefore blood relatives to Cain (sister or niece.) Whenever the Bible is not specific we must be very careful less we fall into misreading the word. Another passage in Genesis that is more than a bit vague is the one related to the Sons of God marrying the daughters of men and thus we get the great men of old. Some have stated that the Sons of God were angels but I doubt it since angels have no reproductive organs and cannot become flesh. My guess is the Sons of God are the direct line to one of Adam’s children and the daughter are from the line of Cain. Since we are not sure we say this is the most probable explanation; i.e., this can be the case.
mherman: “I see the harmony of the scriptures between passages.” What harmony is there in calling for the annihilation of 2/3 of the Jews in Jerusalem as dispensationalist do. What harmony in scripture is there when people interpret chariots to be tanks, arrows to be guided missles, and modern armies coming to Israel to plunder their cattle? What harmony is there to guessing the antichrist and the beast of Revelation for 2000 years and changing the characters to fit the news events? What harmony is their to insert 2000 years into a passage that does not even mention such a thing; and while I am at it, what harmony is there to say that the Antichrist will establish a covenant with Israel, when never before or after has Satan or his minions ever established a covenant with anyone. God establishes covenants not Satan.
You see, the problem I have with the Pretribulational Rapture is that it is not harmonious, and it does great harm to the church.
No one has even begun to take any part of the Rapture ideology and used the Bible to explain it. Just take Matthew 24, which I explained my point of view and explain the dispensationalist point of view. That all. Just tell me how you get from the disciples asking the 2 key questions and Jesus’s response being one of a far distant future event. TELL me Please. I would like someone anyone to explain the Olivet discourse which is the central part upon which Pretribbers hang their hats.
No one will do it because no one can….not without tying the Bible into knots and making it walk on all fours. If the Bible can be made to say anything we want it to say then it says NOTHING.
The problem with Bernie is the hardness of his heart.
Answer: That is the language of charlatans and fraudsters the world over. Have you hardened your heart to Allah, Hinduism, Mormonism, Judaism or Scientology? Or is there some other reason that you reject these things? When you understand that reason then you’ll understand why I reject Christianity.
An apocalypse is concerned with the events of its own time and with those that its author expected to take place in the immediate future. Apocalypses in general were not written for a world or a people or a church hundreds or thousands of years later than their time of writing. They were written for their own day and generation. Like other apocalyptic seers, John believed that history had about run its course. It was about to be interrupted by the dramatic and catastrophic introduction of the Kingdom of God.
An earlier name for writings of this type was “apocrypha” i.e. “things hidden.” Much confusion has been caused by these terms. Such books were not written as puzzles for the curious, to afford glimpses of history still far in the future. Rather they were intended as sources of strength and confidence for contemporaries of the author who were in a period of crisis and needed encouragement to stand firm in the testing days immediately at hand. In other words, the expectations Christians derive from reading the apocalyptic literature in the Bible does not define its intended function. Of course there have been Christians in every century that have read the biblical words as though they were a kind of literal prose, a blueprint of the future instead of a poetic and symbolic portrayal of faith that can be proclaimed in no other way. All of have been wrong. So are you.
Mike: ” After Cain killed Abel he was sent off and married other woman. The Bible is not specific in mentioning exactly where these woman came from’
You mean the place or parenthood?
The question so many people ask is, Where did Cain get his wife?
Answer: She was his sister.
At that very earlier stage in earths history the gene pool was almost pure and for that reason and the fact that God hadn’t created anyone else besides Adam and Eve at the beginning (hear O Theists!) the children of Adam and Eve married. Not so today ofcourse. The gene pool is much degraded.
In Moses day God had to forbid marriage so close to home, but not to cousins at that time.
Abraham ofcourse married his half sister, and Rachel married her cousin Jacob.
Mike: Your response to my comment, “I see the harmony of the scriptures between passages.”
was a very emotive one……again, you use emotion in your answer…..which you accuse me of. I think this is called hypocrisy.
What you said had nothing to do with the harmony I was talking about in the scriptures, where one scripture will be credited by another, and so is in harmony. In your comment you question the contents of the scriptures. It all boils down to interpretation. You have yours, and others have theirs. Why are you so aggressive, to the point of arrogance, sometimes?
Mike: ”No one has even begun to take any part of the Rapture ideology and used the Bible to explain it.”
Maybe your attitude puts them off trying!
Post 151 – Bernie: Not all people are untrustworthy and selfish. Intelligent people realize there are real world consequences for untrustworthiness and selfishness. The less intelligent among us don’t so they need imaginary consequences to keep them in line. We call those people religious.
I recognize my failures. People who don’t ever fail just aren’t trying to get ahead in life. Successful people have a history of failures. Unsuccessful people are afraid of failure so they never try to get ahead. That’s life dude.
No, but I don’t know many people that are genuinely trustworthy and generous (or what I’d call true Christians). Intelligent people can obviously put on a ruse of trustworthiness/unselfishness so that they can “get ahead”. Tricks like that don’t fool God, who knows the heart, but they do trick people and make money or gain power.
“Getting ahead” of everyone else is probably the most common life-goal for atheists I’ve spoken to. I believe one of my bosses was an atheist and had this mentality, though it was never verbalized. It’s not good. You very likely do realize your failures in terms of “getting ahead”, but what I was referring to was your failures according to God (that define selfishness and untrustworthiness).
Post 158 – Mike: One other thing, one of the things the dispensationalist bring up is the mark of the beast. You will not be able to buy or sell unless you have the mark of the beast. They keep referring to embedded chips. It use to be credit cards and before they existed it was some sort of tatoo. The mark of the Beast on the hand and on the forehead is SYMBOLIC.
I haven’t heard that. If the mark is symbolic and refers only to how someone behaves, then why is buying/selling brought up? What would buying/selling mean symbolically – if the mark symbolizes good or bad behaviors/attitudes/lifestyles?
Mike:” Just tell me how you get from the disciples asking the 2 key questions and Jesus’s response being one of a far distant future event. TELL me Please.”
TELL ME please, why it HAS TO BE at THAT time? If you read all of Matthew 24, you will see many if not all of the things that Jesus spoke of happening today…..in a far greater measure. And the greatest sign of Christ’s near return is the regathering of Israel to their land again….this was prophesied in many places in the OLD TESTAMENT! Many things were spoken of by the prophets in the OT hundreds of years before they happened, we only have to look at the prophecies of Jesus first coming. If all that was spoken of in Matt: 24 happened in the first century then what has the last 2000 years been all about? TELL ME please.
b baggins: And ofcourse (talking about the Mark of the Beast) the question also can be asked, how is it anyone can accept or refuse something symbolic? And doesn’t it say something about the hand (symbolic?) and the forehead (symbolic?). Maybe our friend Mike can please TELL US what that means.
PS: And…..it is a MARK.
Post 177 – mherman: It all boils down to interpretation. You have yours, and others have theirs.
I’m going to have to go through the book and summarize all the relevant parts here for you. The pre-trib interpretation is very impractical and non-scriptural (to be shown).
The Christians are supposed to help their fellow man, but in what is supposed to be man’s greatest testing the Christians are strangely absent. New Christian converts, if that’s possible under pre-trib circumstances, would have no one to look to during the tribulation (the most spiritually trying time in human history?). This sounds more like “Christians” trying to protect themselves, while they should be looking out for their neighbor. That seems like a horrible teaching to me (/shrug). We’ll see, as soon as I do some homework for you all.
b baggins: Interpretation is the main problem with disagreement in scriptural teaching. IN the book I quoted earlier written by Pentecost, he says, on page 193, ”It is frankly and freely admitted by amillennialists that the basic issue in the controversy between premillennialists and themselves is the issue of the method of interpretation to be employed in the interpretation of prophecy. Allis says, ‘The question of literal versus figurative interpretation is, therefore, one which has to be faced at the very outset.’ (Oswald Allis ‘Prophecy and the Church’ p17). He admits that if the literal method of interpretation of the Scriptures be the right method premillennialism is the correct interpretation. Thus we can see that our doctrine of the premillenial return of Christ to institute a literal kingdom is the outcome of the literal method of interpretation of the OT promises and prophecy. It is only natural, therefore, that the same basic method of interpretation must be employed in our interpretation of he rapture question.”
O Happy Day!
And it goes on, but too much for me to type out on here.
It goes without saying, that our interpretations are what are producing the beliefs we hold. I have always been taught, that when reading scripture, a literal interpretation should be used until such times as it is obvious that symbolism and figurative language is used. But in the end is only by the Holy Spirit that anyone can understand the scriptures, as Corinthians tells us.
Have to go now. Back later.
mherman: “If you read all of Matthew 24, you will see many if not all of the things that Jesus spoke of happening today…..in a far greater measure.”
These things have happened throughout history. You can’t get any worse than the plagues of Europe that wiped out 60% of the population. Imagine the desperation of people living in path of the various barbarian invaders or the Muslim attempt to conquer Europe. Somehow we seem to think that we, the current generation, are somewhat unique when nothing could be further from the truth. When Benito Mussolini was attempting to re-establish the Roman Empire, the dispensationalists were SURE he was the antichrist. Those that read the news headlines of the day with Bible in their other hand are doing a great disservice to God’s word.
mherman: “If all that was spoken of in Matt: 24 happened in the first century then what has the last 2000 years been all about? TELL ME please.
” Notice that I am directly answering your question.
The last 2000 years and the next 2000 years, should Christ tarry, must be about Christians doing the will of the One who bought us. The will of God is very simple to understand.
1. Read the word daily and know the Lord.
2. Pray daily, but always be aware that we should pray that His will be done, not ours.
3. Seek to live as the Bible tells us to live….Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor.
4. Preach the good news and bring as many people to the Lord as possible.
In doing the above, you will be a living testimony to the faith. It sure beats telling everyone over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that the end is near.
b baggins: “I haven’t heard that. If the mark is symbolic and refers only to how someone behaves, then why is buying/selling brought up? What would buying/selling mean symbolically – if the mark symbolizes good or bad behaviors/attitudes/lifestyles?”
Everyone out there please notice how I address question directly. I DO give a REASON for the hope that lies within me…a reason why I believe.
Answer: After the crucifixion a great persecution broke out. Christians were under siege by both Rome and the Jewish authorities. The Jews issued proclamations prohibiting the people in and around Jerusalem and throughout their sphere of influence from trading with known believers. Christians had to operate in secrecy in order to survive and we know many did not survive. We saw a similar situation take place in the 20th century when the Nuremberg Laws prohibited Germans from trading with or interacting with Jews. A similar thing happened in the 1st century.
mherman: “Mike:” Just tell me how you get from the disciples asking the 2 key questions and Jesus’s response being one of a far distant future event. TELL me Please.”
TELL ME please, why it HAS TO BE at THAT time? ”
I have to get ready for church so I will not be able to respond to all comments at this time. FIRST OF ALL NOTICE, that I answer questions regarding what I believe and why while my questions go unanswered. I’ve narrowed this debate to Matthew 24. I’ve provided a list of sound interpretations of most of the passages. None of the Pretrib proponents have even come close. None have been able to defend their position using “scripture.”
mherman, if YOU, not some detailed article by someone else, using the Bible and the Bible alone, as I have done, will PLEASE explain Matthew 24, at least the first half of it. If you cannot do it then take it as a sign that you believe what you choose to believe regardless of the evidence before you. In that respect you are no different than the Bernie’s of the world.
mherman: “And ofcourse (talking about the Mark of the Beast) the question also can be asked, how is it anyone can accept or refuse something symbolic? And doesn’t it say something about the hand (symbolic?) and the forehead (symbolic?). Maybe our friend Mike can please TELL US what that means.”
The Book of Revelation presents TWO MARKS IN TWO DIFFERENT PLACES.
1. The two different places are the hand and the forehead. Refer to OT and you will note that the mark on the hand is what we do, the hand being symbolic of our actions, while the forehead represents our thoughts. So a believer does what God says and thinks as God wants him to think. Remember what Jesus said about murder and adultery; he who has the thought so much as committed the sin.
2. The 2 different marks are: The mark of the Beast and the Mark of the Lamb.
If the mark of the beast is 666 what is the mark of the Lamb? Regarding the number 666, in those days people engaged in using numbers to identify people. NERO’s number was 666. We no longer do that. Why would scripture say for people to identify the beast by his number when the English language did not even exist at the time? Why would the Bible create such confusion among people throughout the ages?
ONE OTHER POINT ABOUT ANSWERING QUESTIONS, I give complete answers, in detail about the entire question asked. mherman, more often than not you just ask another question or only partially answer my questions by just taking a small part then offering very little explanation.
I firmly believe that you cannot defend your position. I have met NO….as in not one….Pretribber including my pastor that can adequately defend their ideology. Whenever they get into explaining their position, they must resort to putting things into scripture which just aren’t there. They claim to interpret scripture literally, yet are convinced that arrows and spears are missles and chariots are tanks. When I ask where they get such things they say you have to read it that way for the Pretrib Rapture to work out. I see the Pretrib Rapture (PR) comes before the Bible.
JUST EXPLAIN THE FIRST HALF OF MATTHEW 24. That’s it, just Matt. 24 that relates to the end time.
mherman: “I have always been taught, that when reading scripture, a literal interpretation should be used until such times as it is obvious that symbolism and figurative language is used.”
LITERAL INTERPRETATION IS interpreting a passage in the way it was written. You take the factual / literal at face value so when Methusela is said to have live 969 years it means 969 years not 969 months, which would have made him 80 some odd years old. When the Bible says the Sun shall be darkened and the moon turned to blood and the stars will fall from the heavens; THIS IS SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE. I’ve already given numerous examples of what literal interpretation means and NO ONE HAS CRITICIZED A SINGLE WORD OF WHAT I SAID ON THIS SUBJECT. Do you agree or disagree what constitutes literal interpretation?
FINALLY; I am at my wits end with dispensationalists. I get the same run around from everyone I of them I debate. I’ve read what dispensationalists have written. One of the best works on the subject is by John MacArthur a noted Bible scholar. I seek the truth yet NONE OF THE DISPENSATIONALISTS I have met will read Hank Hannigraff’s book, The Apocalypse Code. NOT ONE. They refuse to do so. The Pretribbers act more like a cult than Christians seeking the Truth.
Mike: ” Somehow we seem to think that we, the current generation, are somewhat unique when nothing could be further from the truth.”
You are wrong. This generation has seen a miracle. Israel becoming a nation again. Jews from all around the globe coming back to their land. The 6 day war in 1967. There are many things happening in this world today that are clear signs of the days we are in. We are in the Last Days.
And nothing could have been worse than somewhere in the region of 6,000,000 Jewish people being systematically slaughtered en-mass. But Jesus said there would come a day when the Great Tribulation would be worse than anything that had ever happened before….even worse than the Holocaust. Anti-Semitism is on the rise again in Europe and the world. But God has His hand on them still and is fulfilling His promises to them written in the OT. You may deny this, but it is there in the scriptures. Unless ofcourse you read them as symbolic……and there is your error.
And as far as there being another 2000 of history to run, you again do not understand Gods plan for mankind. I believe that God has planned for this world to endure for 6000 years and then the 7th is a thousand years of ‘rest’, the Millenium. I believe the scriptures support this. It is a picture which I believe was shown to us in the 6 days that took to Create the heavens and the earth. 6 days He worked in creation, and on the 7th God rested. This pattern of 7’s is something that runs all through the Bible. But that is going into another subject.
Yes, we are here to preach the gospel and bring lost souls to Jesus, but God also has a plan for Israel and one would have to be blind not to see what is happening in the Middle East at the moment.
But I’m not going into all that…..I doubt whether it would make any difference to you, as your interpretation of scripture prohibits you from seeing the literal truth of the scriptures.
Mike: ” None of the Pretrib proponents have even come close. None have been able to defend their position using “scripture.””
Does that mean that you have never even read anything about the Pre-Trib. Rapture? If I were to take you through all the scriptures you would probably do what the Theists do with my expanation from the scriptures of a 6 day creation……you would twist and symbolise everything. It’s so easy to do isn’t it? Just change everything to symbolic or poetry, or allegorise etc. etc. For example, you said (about the Mark of the Beast) ”…..note that the mark on the hand is what we do, the hand being symbolic of our actions, while the forehead represents our thoughts.” So here we see YOUR interpretation of something that is written literally….A MARK…..IN THE HAND….IN THE FOREHEAD…..and if you don’t TAKE THIS MARK…..you’re dead! It is an actual MARK, not a symbol……and as someone else has pointed out to you, we have the technology in place right now to make this possible. It didn’t exist in the 1st century, but IT DOES EXIST NOW!
And as I said before, maybe it is your attitude that puts them off even trying. It is certainly putting me off.
Mike: ”ONE OTHER POINT ABOUT ANSWERING QUESTIONS, I give complete answers, in detail about the entire question asked. mherman, more often than not you just ask another question or only partially answer my questions by just taking a small part then offering very little explanation.”
Mike, you love to argue……I don’t! Simple as that! I am getting a little tired of the attitude that continually comes across from you…it is not gracious, it is not humble….it is aggressive, angry, and arrogant.
I think I have already gone way passed the time I should have ceased this discussion. And you can then be proud that you have given complete answers to every question and shown your superior knowledge of the Bible and put us all to shame!. Have a Happy week.
No, but I don’t know many people that are genuinely trustworthy and generous (or what I’d call true Christians).
Answer: Most of the people you associate with are Christians so naturally you aren’t going to meet many trustworthy and generous people. If most of your friends were unbelievers, infidels, atheists and members of other religions then most of the people you know would be fairly trustworthy and generous. You’re hanging with the wrong crowd. Listening to those people could likely get you in deep trouble with the law. The prison system is full of mostly Christians.
Intelligent people can obviously put on a ruse of trustworthiness/unselfishness so that they can “get ahead”. Tricks like that don’t fool God, who knows the heart, but they do trick people and make money or gain power.
Answer: Not hardly. I know how to tell when a person is not being honest. You on the other hand have fallen for a bunch of religious dogma and lies told to you by other people. So naturally you would get the impressions people that untrustworthy people can easily fool others. They fooled you.
“Getting ahead” of everyone else is probably the most common life-goal for atheists I’ve spoken to. I believe one of my bosses was an atheist and had this mentality, though it was never verbalized. It’s not good. You very likely do realize your failures in terms of “getting ahead”, but what I was referring to was your failures according to God (that define selfishness and untrustworthiness).
Answer: We live in a nation that has a capitalistic monetary system. This system is based on only one motivating factor: greed. You either run ahead of the pack or you get trampled by it. Your God isn’t what defines selfishness and untrustworthiness. Those words are human constructs that describe human concepts. You claim I have failures according to your God but your God simply does not exist.
Mike, Cain and Abel? It’s hard to believe anyone can actually believe that stupid story is true. Even someone as undereducated and badly misinformed about the Bible as you are. x is right. Ignorance is glory to a creationist.
mherman: “You are wrong. This generation has seen a miracle. Israel becoming a nation again. Jews from all around the globe coming back to their land.”
Better look into the creation of the state of Israel. It was heavily promoted by Christian Zionists that believed the hog wash presented by Darby. Wealthy Jews, a leading banking family of GB, got behind the movement and the Balfour agreement 1917 or Declaration was issued:
“The declaration was made in a letter from Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland, a Zionist organization. The letter reflected the position of the British Cabinet, as agreed upon in a meeting on 31 October 1917. It further stated that the declaration is a sign of “sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations.”
Originally, Israel was to be much larger but once oil was discovered in the Arab nations, the Brits began to reduce the size. Now let me ask you this “WHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS THERE A MENTION OF A REBUILT TEMPLE? WHERE? Israel is by and large secular. Most Jews do not worship as their ancestors did. Yes Israel was re-established, but so what. One event does not prove the Bible.
mherman: “And nothing could have been worse than somewhere in the region of 6,000,000 Jewish people being systematically slaughtered en-mass.” We’ve covered this ground before. What would be worse the slaughter of 50 million Christians or the annihilation of the Christian faith where just a few 1000 die. I ask this question, because the Temple was the center…the heart and soul of Hebrew Worship. When it was wiped out…completely destroyed so that not one stone was left upon another the whole system of worship….the focal point of God being with His people vanished forever. At the time of the Nazi holocaust, many a Christian Pretribber hailed it as a sign of the Jesus coming and the Rapture.
So now Christian Zionists are encouraging Jews to immigrate to Israel so that 2/3 of them can be slaughtered while we sit up in heaven watching. THIS IS SICK.
mherman: “Yes, we are here to preach the gospel and bring lost souls to Jesus, but God also has a plan for Israel and one would have to be blind not to see what is happening in the Middle East at the moment.” So God has two plans? One for Christians and another for Israel. Whatever happened to “no one comes to the Father except by Me. I am the truth and the life.” In the 2 dispensations God is then made a racist. He prefers Jews over all others even though they have rejected the Son (exception made for Jews that believe Christ is the Messiah.)
MHERMAN PLEASE WALK ME THROUGH MATT. 24 USING THE BIBLE AND SHOWING ME HOW THIS CHAPTER FITS INTO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE. You have yet to do this. I repeat you can’t because it is impossible; not without twisting the Bible. Besides before you get half way through I will point out a major discrepancy that pops up when Matt. is interpreted by Pretribbers.
mherman, if there is a discrepancy in the Bible then it Cannot be the Word of God, can it?
Bernie: “We live in a nation that has a capitalistic monetary system.” If you are referring to free market capitalism, that has not existed since the creation of the Federal Reserve. Since 1913 the nation has been moving towards socialism and now it may be fascism. The last vestiges of free market capitalism disappeared with the Bush Administration. We are now headed at breakneck speed towards some sort of MEGA Social Welfare state.
Bernie: “This system is based on only one motivating factor: greed.” Yep, you can’t get any greedier than the Banksters that gave us OTC derivatives that have killed us all. Of course the Banksters would not have been able to pull it off without the help of the government that was suppose to be preventing abuse. Bernie Maddoff was no fluke and compared to what the Banks / Finance Companies did, his crime was minor league.
Mike: ”So now Christian Zionists are encouraging Jews to immigrate to Israel so that 2/3 of them can be slaughtered while we sit up in heaven watching. THIS IS SICK.”
My flesh is tempted to respond as unlovingly as you appear to be, but I won’t.
Do you realise how offensive you are becoming with your attitude?
As far as Jewish people returning to Israel, it was prophesied in the OLD TESTAMENT that GENTILES would help them back to their land in the Last Days! The only Gentiles, that I know, who are doing that today are the Christians. And I not only help them, I pray for them too, for they are STILL Gods people, God STILL LOVES THEM and I LOVE THEM TOO!!!
However they are getting back to Israel, THE FACT IS…..THEY ARE RETURNING AS PROPHESIED!
And I refuse to walk through anything with you after what you have said. And I feel YOU HAVE SAID ENOUGH.
mherman: “Do you realise how offensive you are becoming with your attitude? ” If the truth is offensive then so be it. Pretribbers believe that 2/3 of the Jews in Israel will be slaughtered in the Great Trib. Right? So shouldn’t we be discouraging them from moving into the land where they will be killed. Instead there are all sorts of Christian organizations promoting a return of as many Jews as they can load up. Pastor Hagee is a firm believer in the Rapture and is a Christian Zionist that wants as many Jews in the land as he can get.
Nothing of what I say or write is based on a fertile imagination. When I made the comment, ”So now Christian Zionists are encouraging Jews to immigrate to Israel so that 2/3 of them can be slaughtered while we sit up in heaven watching.” it is because it’s the truth and in my humble opinion it is SICK.
The time has come when many more Jews are wanting to move “home” to Israel from the Americas. The Cyrus Foundation, a non-profit, tax-exempt Christian foundation, directed by Bart and Deborah Kellogg along with other ministry leaders, is helping to make it possible for needy Jewish people in North, Central and South America to return to Israel and make it their home once again
http://www.cyrusfoundation.org/
John Hagee:
“Hagee is the founder and National Chairman of the Christian-Zionist organization Christians United for Israel, incorporated on February 7, 2006……
Hagee has been to Israel 22 times and has met with every Prime Minister of Israel since Menachem Begin. John Hagee Ministries has given more than $8.5 million to bring Soviet Jews from the former Soviet Union to Israel. Hagee is the Founder and Executive Director of “A Night to Honor Israel”, an event that expresses solidarity between Christians and Jews on behalf of Jerusalem, the State of Israel, and the United States.[36]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee#Personal_beliefs
Hagee preaches another way of salvation for the Jew, which is in direct violation of Paul’s warnings in Galatians 1:6-9.
This theological concept, which has many forms, is primarily referred to as the “Two Covenant” or “Dual Covenant” theory.
Christian author and conspiracy debunker Gregory Camp also is critical of Hagee’s writings:
“The Texas-based minister has recently published a book dealing with the end times in which he predicts the end of Israeli independence as a result of giving up the Golan Heights and then signing a treaty with the Antichrist. Titled Beginning of the End, this Thomas Nelson publication will doubtless sell by the hundreds of thousands. It rehashes old premillennial prophecy themes and like an increasing number of such ministries, throws conspiracy theory into the mix. The book unfortunately is just one more of a series of tired conspiracy-tainted prophecy monographs so common these days; there is scarcely an original idea to be found between its covers. The reader is ‘treated’ to sensationalistic predictions about the Israeli State and the nearness of Christ’s return based on conspiracy and closet date-setting.”6
A Religious News Service report stated that Hagee raised over $1 million to help Soviet Jews resettle in Israel.7 The money was presented to the United Jewish Appeal in February 1998. Upon receiving the money, Irving Pozmantier talked of global peace. Most dispensationalists would be negatively impressed by such utopian talk.
Hagee believes that the resettlement of Soviet Jewry is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. It must be pretty heady to think and project that you are one of the major instruments for the fulfillment of the prophetic Word. No wonder his followers are impressed and even mesmerized.
Hagee elaborated on his view that chapters 9 through 11 of Romans applies exclusively to Jews and no one else. In the letter, Hagee said unabashedly:
“Here is my position on the Jewish people… Fact One: God has not cast away the Jewish people. Fact Two: According to Romans 11:5 there are Jewish people (‘a remnant’) who have a spiritual relationship with God at this present time… according to ‘the election of grace.’”13
But here is the concept in all its glory:
http://www.theprophecies.com/Warning%2016%20The%20Coming%20Apocalypse.html
Once again mherman, “Do you realise how offensive you are becoming with your attitude?” I am not the one that is being offensive. If you believe in the Pretrib Rapture and support those that promote it, realize what you are supporting.
I’ve never been really sure what the Federal Reserve was doing and now we come to find out that the top brass there doesn’t know what its been doing all along either. No one knows. Congress is presently trying to figure out what the Federal Reserve has been up to. But none of these people who work at the Fed will claim to know anything so it’s a real can of worms. Have you seen how angry and frustrated these congressmen have been getting when they question these people who work for the Fed? Congress is made up of the most arrogant, nasty people in the world: lawyers. Something is going to hit the fan and sooner rather than later. I wouldn’t want to be working at the Fed right about now.
Like my fathers before me, I have been self-employed most of my life. I wasn’t around before the Federal Reserve was created so the form of capitalism we have today is the only one I have any personal experience with. Nothing much has changed since my father was in business or since I began my own business. The banking industry doesn’t really affect small businesses because banks simply don’t loan money to this sector of the economy. Ninety percent of businesses fail in the first year and most of the rest are just hanging on because their owners are just too proud to go back to work for someone else even though they’d be better off financially. But most of these could fail at any time too of course. I had to put my house up as collateral to get working capital for my business and even then I had to go to a private mortgage company because the bankers looked at me like I had three heads when I asked about a loan.
> Bernie: “This system is based on only one motivating factor: greed.” Yep, you can’t get any greedier than the Banksters that gave us OTC derivatives that have killed us all. Of course the Banksters would not have been able to pull it off without the help of the government that was suppose to be preventing abuse. Bernie Maddoff was no fluke and compared to what the Banks / Finance Companies did, his crime was minor league.
Answer: The banking and monetary problems did not come from our abandoning the gold standard. They came when we allowed banks to do business across state lines. When we allowed banks to loan money to foreign countries that neither had the resources or intentions of even making the interest payments on these gigantic loans. Our government backed these loans you know. When they defaulted the banks got paid and our government absorbed the losses. We’ve been quietly bailing out these banking institutions for decades. So it’s no wonder these guys just expected to get bailed out again. The only reason the public even knows about what is going on now is because a bunch of companies failed at once and it set off a chain reaction.
Of course no one would bail me out if my business should fail so naturally I think all these companies, including GM and AIG should have been allowed to fail. No business should be “too big to fail” in a country that has anti-trust laws. These businesses should not be allowed to exist in the first place. As a business owner I’m in favor of more government regulation of the private sector, not less. My business would flourish in a socialistic society and probably would make more money than it does now.
Did you see the ex-con on television that predicted Bernie Madoff would get shanked (stabbed with a makeshift weapon) before long in prison? See, there’s honor among thieves. Certain crimes like what Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy or other sickos have done, crimes like rape, stealing from the elderly and defenseless and some others warrant the death penalty as far as other incarcerated criminal are concerned. Would you like to give us an over under on how long Madoff has to live in prison? What do you think, 5, 6 months perhaps? How long was it before they got Dahmer? A while but we all knew it was coming didn’t we?
mherman: “As far as Jewish people returning to Israel, it was prophesied in the OLD TESTAMENT that GENTILES would help them back to their land in the Last Days!” Yes and the Jews did return and rebuilt the temple….Herod’s temple.
mherman: “So here we see YOUR interpretation of something that is written literally….A MARK…..IN THE HAND….IN THE FOREHEAD…..and if you don’t TAKE THIS MARK…..you’re dead! It is an actual MARK, not a symbol……It didn’t exist in the 1st century, but IT DOES EXIST NOW!” Sorry but it did exist in the first century. Slaves were marked by their owners by branding. Tatoos have been with us for centuries. In the past these were to be the mark of the beast whose number was 666. Dispensationalism began in the middle of the 19th century long before there were credit cards or chips. The evolution of the mark of the beast has followed technological developments.
mherman:”Mike, you love to argue……I don’t! Simple as that! I am getting a little tired of the attitude that continually comes across from you…it is not gracious, it is not humble….it is aggressive, angry, and arrogant.
”
I think I have already gone way passed the time I should have ceased this discussion. And you can then be proud that you have given complete answers to every question and shown your superior knowledge of the Bible and put us all to shame!. Have a Happy week.
Now you sound like a child having a tantrum. Sorry for my being so blunt but that unfortunately is my nature. Now to respond:
1. I do not love to argue but I do love intellectual discussion especially about the Bible, my favorite subject.
2. I am not angry or arrogant, I am FRUSTRATED. All I asked was for you or anyone else that believes the Pretribulational Rapture ideology to just walk me through the first half of Matt. 24. I did it in reference to Partial Preterism, but alas no takers. I even begged that someone do it. If dispensationalism is sound hemeneutics then it should be a snap to walk someone through it.
3. Arrogance is seen more in the refusal to answer a simple question. You have not even given me a reason why you will not respond. You just ignore my question and then present some other statement to support your view. I have responded to every issue brought up.
Your final sentence: “And you can then be proud that you have given complete answers to every question and shown your superior knowledge of the Bible and put us all to shame!.” I do not claim to have any superior knowledge of anything. I think I once stated that I approach my opinions from the view that I am always wrong. I generally try to prove myself wrong, which is why I go to great lengths to INVESTIGATE and LEARN all that I can. If I am going to hold an opinion, I want to be sure I have as many of the facts and sound reasoning to justify my position.
I once believed the Pretrib Rapture ideology. My problem was I could not explain it without adding things into the Bible that weren’t there. The Book of Revelation did not make any sense. A comet hitting the earth would wipe out all life, a star would obliterate the planet. Stars falling had to mean something other than actual stars falling. I spent nearly 2 years going over every word of scripture that pertained to the Rapture ideology. Then I investigated all the different positions taken by theologians. Premill, Amill, Postmill, Pretrib, Post trib, etc. I read books and articles from all points of view. The one position that made sense was the Partial Preterist view, which I came to basically on my own using nothing but scripture.
I read if you can believe it, nearly all of Josephus, History of the Jewish Wars. The Church let me check out the book from their extensive library with the understanding that they could call me and I would have to return it immediately since it was a reference for the college students. Funny thing was I held on to it for over 3 months and no phone calls. As a matter of fact it was hardly ever checked out. It is a tedious book but fascinating at the same time.
I also check out commentaries by the like of Oliver Green and others that were devout dispensationalists. I looked into the history of the movement. I read what the church fathers had to say prior to mid-19th century. I have scores of notes on the subject. I spent hours with my Concordance looking up original meanings. These days, I do not just read the Bible I study it. The word of God is precious to me, so precious that I want to know what God is telling me. I do not follow anyone else nor their ideas. I question.
You see mherman, I am a good Berean, I do search the scriptures and all other documents pertaining to them, but most of all I depend on the Bible itself. It has been hard work but it has been a labor of love.
Are we not told to defend the word. Are we not to give a REASON for the hope that lies within us. I cannot answer every question presented to me regarding scripture, but when this happens I tell people I will find out and get back with them. Most of my Christian brothers and sisters slam the door or hide behind it, when Jehovah Witnesses come by. I bring out the ice tea and invite them in so I can witness to them. I even borrowed a copy of their New World Translation so I could show them the Deity of Christ in their own book. (I did a complete study on every verse and chapter that references Christ’s deity.)
Me arrogant? Not hardly. I constantly search for truth and I support everything I believe with facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but no one is entitled Their Own Facts.
I believe with all my heart that the Pretrib. Rapture ideology does great harm. It is not some innocent belief that impacts no one. Imagine a person living in Darfur that gets Pretrib thrown at them. They are going through hell on earth and wondering why God doesn’t take them out. Is the Pretrib. Rapture just for us White Western European Christians and not all the little brown and black people of the earth.
What made you angry was my constant challenge to explain Matt. 24. The fact that you can’t should tell YOU something.
Bernie states, “Mike, Cain and Abel? It’s hard to believe anyone can actually believe that stupid story is true. Even someone as undereducated and badly misinformed about the Bible as you are. x is right. Ignorance is glory to a creationist.” You see in Bernie’s mind what he believes is all that matters. He needs no facts or evidence as he is his own expert. This is a similar attitude I find with most Pretribbers. They cannot or will not explain WHY they believe WHAT they believe. That is the epitome of arrogance.
Bernie: “The banking industry doesn’t really affect small businesses because banks simply don’t loan money to this sector of the economy.”
Just pray that CIT Group doesn’t go belly up. All Business will FEEL THE PAIN and unemployment may very well exceed Great Depression levels.
CIT is the one group that has to be saved, more so than Lehman Brothers. Recall, it was Lehman’s blow up that triggered the global melt down.
Bernie: “We’ve been quietly bailing out these banking institutions for decades.” Without the Fed none of these bailouts would have been possible. The history of government bailouts goes back decades but it really began to pick up steam with Penn Central Railroad in the early 70s. Of course this coincides perfectly with Nixon closing the gold window in 1971. Up until then monetary expansion was at 55% over the previous 40 years. Since then the money supply has exploded to 2000%.
Bernie: “Nothing much has changed since my father was in business or since I began my own business.” HUH?? How have you been able to avert increases in Social Security contribution….excuse me we can now call them taxes since that is what they are. Medicare wasn’t around when your Dad started in business. The tax code was simplified under Reagan, which took away many deductions but lowered tax rates. The government since then has increased tax rates but did not give us back the old deductions. Social Security taxes were doubled in the early 80s to set up a trust fund for the Boomers. The only problem was that the money was spent.
The size of government doubled under George Bush and looks like it will double again under Obama.
Bernie: “Of course no one would bail me out if my business should fail so naturally I think all these companies, including GM and AIG should have been allowed to fail. No business should be “too big to fail” in a country that has anti-trust laws.”
I AGREE TOTALLY…100%….WITH ALL MY HEART AND WILL PROCLAIM SAID WITH MY DYING BREATH.
The government’s actions will ruin us all. It matters not who is in charge, Demonuts or Repubnuts.
Bernie: “Did you see the ex-con on television that predicted Bernie Madoff would get shanked (stabbed with a makeshift weapon) before long in prison?” I hope not, although he should never see the light of day and should be made to work as hard as possible for the rest of his life.
I doubt he will be killed. He may be considered the hero of the prison. After all he fooled the system….he tricked the man for 20 years. Unless there is someone in prison that was affected by Madoff, I doubt anything will happen to him. He may be thought of as the shining example of how to beat the system.
Mike,
I don’t even know what CIT Group does or is.
>Bernie’s mind what he believes is all that matters. He needs no facts or evidence as he is his own expert.
Answer: Not true. I believe what I see, not what I think. Believers on the other hand believe what they think, not what they see. I would need some facts or evidence that the story about Cain and Abel or any other story in the Bible might be true before I would believe any of them. You don’t require these same facts or evidence and are quite willing to accept these stories on faith alone. You should be brave enough to admit that.
Bernie: “We’ve been quietly bailing out these banking institutions for decades.” Without the Fed none of these bailouts would have been possible.
Answer: Other nations bail out smaller nations they do business with and their own business community whenever it seen as beneficial all the time without a mechanism such as the Fed being involved. So there is no reason to think our government wouldn’t have bailed these institutions out one way or another if the Fed had never existed.
> How have you been able to avert increases in Social Security contribution….excuse me we can now call them taxes since that is what they are.
Answer: Yeah, they’re taxes and taxes are just another expense. This increase is no different than an increase in minimum wage for retailers, increase in workman’s compensation contributions, unemployment contributions, insurance, etc. What it really does is increase your payroll expense.
Like most expenses you want to keep this at or below a certain percentage. So naturally you may have to raise your prices or cut your payroll expenses. My philosophy though, is to make sure that the gross profit is constantly increasing by either growing sales or finding innovative ways to cut the cost of sales if they aren’t growing. That way when tax or other increases come along you’re already positioned to absorb them. It’s not like you don’t know they’re coming and the trick in business is to stay one step ahead of everyone and everything else. This especially includes the government.
Of course I don’t think Madoff deserves a death sentence nor do I believe in vigilante justice. Next to Social Security I think this is biggest Ponzi scheme there has ever been. You know the government hates thieves because they don’t like competition. Killers and perverts get off easier than Madoff.
Mike: ” If the truth is offensive then so be it.”
No Mike, it is not the ”truth” you present that is offensive, it is YOU, it is YOUR attitude.
” Pretribbers believe that 2/3 of the Jews in Israel will be slaughtered in the Great Trib. Right?”
We don’t just help Jews back to their land we also seek to lead them to their Messiah. And so, NO, we do not want them to suffer in the Great Tribulation anymore than we want anyone to go to Hell. If they refuse the Truth of their Messiah, THAT is what will cause their suffering.
I love the Jewish people, and I would love for them to know their Messiah, our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
”…. there are all sorts of Christian organizations promoting a return of as many Jews as they can load up”
What a weird idea you have of why we want them back in the land. NO they don’t ”load up” as many as they can in the sense you seem to be insinuating, these people WANT TO GO HOME! And God wants them home, HE IS THE ONE REGATHERING THEM ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE IN THE OT. If you want to blame someone why not blame God!
And as far as John Hagee is concerned, Yes, I have had to e-mail him because of one particular teaching He holds concerning the Messiah, so I don’t go along with everything that he teaches, but as far as helping Jewish people home, that is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. (And we aren’t doing it to fulfil prophecy either!)
”mherman: “As far as Jewish people returning to Israel, it was prophesied in the OLD TESTAMENT that GENTILES would help them back to their land in the Last Days!” Yes and the Jews did return and rebuilt the temple….Herod’s temple.”
That was the first return. Read Isaiah ch 11. Verse 11-12 says, ”And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the SECOND TIME to recover the remnant of his people, who shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, AND FROM THE COASTLANDS (ISLANDS) OF THE SEA.”
Isaiah: 49 v 22, ”Thus says the LORD GOD, Behold, I will lift up my hand to THE NATIONS, and set up my standard to the peoples, and they shall bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.”
Ezek: 36 v 23-25: ”And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned AMONG THE NATIONS, which you have profaned in the midst of them, and THE NATIONS shall know that I am the LORD, says the LORD GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE NATIONS, AND GATHER YOU OUR OF ALL COUNTRIES, AND WILL BRING YOU BACK INTO YOUR OWN LAND. THEN I WILL SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, AND YOU SHALL BE CLEAN; FROM ALL YOUR FILTHINESS, AND FROM ALL YOUR IDOLS, WILL I CLEANSE YOU.”
GOD IS DOING IT.
Mike: ”Sorry but it did exist in the first century.”
Yes, the marking existed, but not the technology that will be used to place a mark on the hand and forehead so that it will remain there for the business OD BUYING AND SELLING. No more credit cards……and credit cards are not symbolic are they? They will have a system in place that will require some other kind of earning and paying, and a mark or chip under the skin is a perfect way to make sure no one gets by the control of the Antichrist.
”Now you sound like a child having a tantrum.”
” I do not love to argue but I do love intellectual discussion especially about the Bible, my favorite subject.”
I too love to debate and discuss the Word, but your attitude (I think I’v said it before somewhere
) really puts me off.
So you have done all that reading, well done, but the Bible is our source for Truth, other peoples commentaries or writings can often colour our thinking. And I have studied aswell as read the Word, and I truly believe in what I believe.
”What made you angry was my constant challenge to explain Matt. 24. The fact that you can’t should tell YOU something.”
NO Mike, you are very wrong there, just like a lot of your accusations and assumptions about what I believe and what I do. I could, if I felt bothered, go through Matthew 24 with you, but apart from thinking that it would really be pointless, as you are (with possessing such a negative passion against pre-tribulation theology) fully loaded to shoot your well studied theology back at me. AND, your attitude to boot, I do not feel free to cater to your challenge.
So again, I feel this conversation (of sorts) has gone on long enough.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
mherman, you have yet to explain the Pretrib Rapture in a logical sequential manner. Instead you pick out passages that by and large refer to things that took place 2000+ years ago. It is the cut and paste, make the Bible say whatever you want it to say approach taken by the Pretribbers.
mherman: “Ezek: 36 v 23-25: ”And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned AMONG THE NATIONS, which you have profaned in the midst of them, and THE NATIONS shall know that I am the LORD, says the LORD GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE NATIONS, AND GATHER YOU OUR OF ALL COUNTRIES, AND WILL BRING YOU BACK INTO YOUR OWN LAND. THEN I WILL SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, AND YOU SHALL BE CLEAN; FROM ALL YOUR FILTHINESS, AND FROM ALL YOUR IDOLS, WILL I CLEANSE YOU.”
GOD IS DOING IT.”
This and the following 3 chapters of Ezekiel refer to the book of Ester. The Persian Empire was made up of 120 provinces or nations. Read the book of Ester, which comes after Ezekiel chronologically, and you will see that it all fits right up through the great battle of Eze. 37 and 38. The dispensationalist take these chapters and launch them into the 19th, then 20th, and now the 21st century. It was under Medo-Persia that Israel was allowed back into the land to restore the temple. It was under Medo-Persia that the book of Ester was written and the Jews, which were scattered in the captivity, were living in unwalled cities. IT ALL FITS PERFECTLY while using these and other OT passages to represent modern times makes the Bible a complete joke.
PLEASE, I AM BEGGING YOU JUST TAKE MATT. 24 AND EXPLAIN THE PRETRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH USING THIS SMALL PART OF SCRIPTURE. Matt. 24 is the key chapter to the dispensationalists and since it comes straight from the Master’s mouth, it should be easy. Why do you refuse this one small request?
As for my attitude, it comes from extreme frustration. I keep asking for an explanation of Matt. 24 and you do not even respond to my request. WHY won’t you do it or at least have the courtesy of telling why you won’t.
mherman: “NO Mike, you are very wrong there, just like a lot of your accusations and assumptions about what I believe and what I do. I could, if I felt bothered, go through Matthew 24 with you, but apart from thinking that it would really be pointless, as you are (with possessing such a negative passion against pre-tribulation theology) fully loaded to shoot your well studied theology back at me.”
So you will not give a reason for the hope that lies within you. If I am in error you refuse to clear up my error because you perceive me to be argumentative. Is this the attitude you take with all that disagree vehemently with you? Do you take the time to witness to the Jehovah Witnesses? They have strongly held beliefs and are more than willing to take on Christians.
mherman: “NO Mike, you are very wrong there, just like a lot of your accusations and assumptions about what I believe and what I do. I could, if I felt bothered, go through Matthew 24 with you, but apart from thinking that it would really be pointless, as you are (with possessing such a negative passion against pre-tribulation theology) fully loaded to shoot your well studied theology back at me. AND, your attitude to boot, I do not feel free to cater to your challenge.”
FINALLY, an answer as to why you will not answer my request to explain Matt. 24. ” I could, if I felt bothered, go through Matthew 24 with you, but apart from thinking that it would really be pointless, as you are (with possessing such a negative passion against pre-tribulation theology) fully loaded to shoot your well studied theology back at me.”
So it is your objection to my being able to shoot my well studied theology back at you. If “my well studied theology” is so good why won’t you investigate it to see if it is true. That is what a Berean does. You can go to Hank Hannigraff’s web site or go to Gary Demar as I do believe he is also a Preterist or partial preterist.
Have you taken the time to view Doug Tjaden’s short videos so as to see the connection between the Bible’s warnings against diverse weights and measures and fiat currency? You haven’t said anything about it even though it means gaining an understanding of scripture as it truly pertains to events of the day.
I am perfectly willing to end the discussion, but remember this, God calls us to be salt and light. We cannot be either if believe a lie; be it the Pretrib Rapture or Fiat currency. I search the Truth because God is Truth. Truth is not a warm fuzzy feeling. It is objective and without emotion…Truth is Truth pure and simple. God is Truth. When you say you seek His Face it suppose you mean that you Seek Him. How is that possible when you do not take the time to find the TRUTH while you cannot defend what you believe. Being a good and obedient servant is more than just the “snuggling up” to our Lord. It means defending the faith and standing for Truth. I do not claim to be the bearer of all truth, but I do seek it, and when I discover that I am wrong in something I believe I change my position. As I have stated, I was once a Pretribber myself until I SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY TO FIND THE TRUTH.
One more point on the Pretrib Rapture that should bother every Christian. It is the notion that somehow the Land is sacred. The Promise Land was symbolic of Christ. The Lord promised the Jews rest on all sides and protection so long as they remained faithful. He also warned them of what would happen should they NOT be faithful. In Christ we are guaranteed rest on all side. OF course this does not mean we will not face tribulation for that is guaranteed in this life, but we will have the Lord always on our side regardless the outcome.
The whole notion that somehow God cares about land and who possess it, detracts from His Son and our relationship to Him. The Bible is a Christ Book from start to finish, yet the dispensationalist have decided to make it a book about the Hebrews and the Land they once possessed. The Bible begins with creation and quickly moves to Paradise lost and ends with Paradise restored, yet the dispensationalist want to impose an Antichrist, which is really anyone that opposes Christ or tries to substitute for Him, a Tribulation period where the saints are raptured out while God deals with “His people, Israel”, then a 1000 year reign where there is a rebuilt temple and priests conducting sacrifices for sin!!?????
Do you not see anything wrong with this picture? Men prefer the lie. It is easier to believe a lie than to stand for the truth. The problem with the Lie is that it cannot be defended intellectually. The Lie draws on man’s prejudices and promotes evil works (note all the money sucked out of the church by promoters of lies, when the same money could have been used towards God’s work.) Tim LeHey, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, and so many others have used the Pretrib. Rapture to line their pockets and grow their empires all the while the churches go begging for money to do the Lord’s work. These people live life styles most people only dream of, and where to they get the money? Do they produce any good fruit? Do they produce anything constructive or of real value? Maybe some things but certainly not in relation to the money they take in.
The Pretrib Rapture is Big Business for more than a handful of people. All the while it makes a mockery of Christ’s true Church. Just ask Bernie what he thinks of the decades long predictions made by dispensationalists.
mherman, this is what you support but cannot defend. Your silence on the subject is deafening.
Mike:” Do you not see anything wrong with this picture? ”
It is you that seem to have ”the picture” wrong. And when there is truth to stand for….I stand. And I am standing now for the truth I believe in.
I know if I keep responding to your posts you shall just continue with your version of events in the Bible.
This debate between us is over. Be gracious enough to accept that.
Mike: PS ” I keep asking for an explanation of Matt. 24 and you do not even respond to my request. WHY won’t you do it or at least have the courtesy of telling why you won’t.”
I DID TELL YOU MIKE, you just won’t accept my answer!
mherman: “Mike: PS ” I keep asking for an explanation of Matt. 24 and you do not even respond to my request. WHY won’t you do it or at least have the courtesy of telling why you won’t.”
I DID TELL YOU MIKE, you just won’t accept my answer!”
Yes you did but only after I asked dozens of times; only after I begged you to either explain Matt. 24 or tell me why you wouldn’t. In the end you told me, “” I could, if I felt bothered, go through Matthew 24 with you, but apart from thinking that it would really be pointless, as you are (with possessing such a negative passion against pre-tribulation theology) fully loaded to shoot your well studied theology back at me.” So it is my fault for your not explaining Matt 24.
mherman: “It is you that seem to have ”the picture” wrong. And when there is truth to stand for….I stand. And I am standing now for the truth I believe in.” Yes you do stand for what you believe. What you fail to do is back it up what you believe. You fail to give a REASON for the hope that lies within you. It’s OK, I truly expected no different as every other dispensationalist…..as in everyone refused to….as in they would not do it…..walk me through the Bible passages they said supported their ideology using sound hermeneutics. I had hoped that for once I would meet someone who would explain it to me. I am, after all, the truth. But like a good Berean, I use scripture to interpret scripture. So when a Pretribber says that Jesus has not returned “on clouds with power and great glory” and I say that is OT imagery for the Lord’s judgment and show them the passages; then it must mean that the destruction of the Temple and the taking of Jerusalem was Jesus’s returning before the generation expired….just as He said He would.
The discussion as you say is over. Maybe someday, somewhere someone will be able to walk me through the Pretrib Rapture, but I doubt it. It is hard to justify a lie.
Mike: I’m sorry, but from now on I will no longer read your posts. You have to change the way you debate or sooner or later no one who has an opposing belief will want to discuss this subject with you. Kash gave up trying, and now I am. Again, I’m sorry that I found it necessary to do this.
mherman: “I’m sorry, but from now on I will no longer read your posts. You have to change the way you debate or sooner or later no one who has an opposing belief will want to discuss this subject with you. Kash gave up trying, and now I am. Again, I’m sorry that I found it necessary to do this.”
That is fine and for whatever it is worth, one of the things kash and I agree on is that the Pretrib Rapture is faulty eschatology at best. She agree with me on “the end times.” What kash and I have debated is the whole notion of Fiat Currency being honest money that benefits the people that exchange their labor for money.
I am not sorry, and personally what people choose to believe or not believe is their own business, and I am well aware that the vast majority will reject truth if it conflicts with their preconceived notion of reality. What you do with God’s word is between you and God. What you believe about what God says is critical. I know that in your opinion, God is a warm fuzzy guy that only loves. You believe that He will not condemn the unrighteous (those that accept the Traditions of Men thus nullifying His word–I doubt you ever checked Doug’s web site or ever listened to his videos– you do not appear to be one interested in truth.
Sorry for being blunt….even confrontational….but I have tried to present the case Against the Dispensationalist using the Bible. I have explained how hurtful I believe it is to the body of Christ. Bernie’s silence on the subject is revealing. The last thing he wants to do is dissuade anyone from proclaiming over and over and over again that the end is near. He knows full well that dispensationalist are the shining example of just how silly Christians are to believe such nonsense.
The reason I have asked so many people to explain the Pretrib Rapture is because I want to know the truth. I want them to take the Bible and walk me through it. I spent 2 hours with my pastor dealing with this subject. Sorry to say, he could not answer my questions regarding Matt. 24. For example the whole notion that somehow, only in Matt. 24 does “this generation” actually mean “that generation.” He also had difficulty with “you” in the first few verses when Jesus was addressing the disciples in answer to their questions.
Finally I will tell you of the great discrepancy created by the Pretrib Rapture people:
And then many will be offended, and will betray one another and will hate one another Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And the lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. but he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world (oikoumene – Roman Empire) as a witness to all the nations (the Roman Empire was made up of over 20 nations), and the end will come.”(Matt.24: 10 – 14)
Besides the fact that the “world” used in the passage in the original Greek meant Roman Empire so the end comes when the word is preached in the Roman Empire. That took place in Paul’s ministry. This one word, “Oikoumene” used in the Greek is clear. It stands for The Known / Inhabited world was at the time the Roman Empire.
But the discrepancy comes in these verses: ” And then many will be offended, and will betray one another and will hate one another Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And the lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” Dispensationalist say these verses pertain to the actual tribulation. How can it be? I thought the Church has been raptured out by the time of the Trib. Post tribbers at least have a leg to stand on in these verses. Pretribbers die before they get through the first 14 verses of Matthew.
I expect no response from you as you say the discussion is over. I know that when I stand before my Lord and He reviews my desire to seek truth and testify to it, He will say, “Well done good and faithful servant.” I have debated atheist on why I believe the Bible is the word of God. I have witnessed to the Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormons regarding scripture and why the Bible is the word of God. I led one Mormon to the Lord. I’ve had JW church elders visit my home and I have defended the deity of Christ to the point that they left fearing that I might sway some of their followers away from the true Christ. While most Christians slam the door in their faces I welcome the opportunity to present to them the true Son of God. If you have witnessed to the JW, you know that this cannot be done with warm fuzzy “Jesus loves you.” You just can’t preach Jesus to the JW, you must show them in scripture why they are in error. They believe in Jesus just as the Mormons do, but it is not the same Jesus of scripture.
If I am right on the economy and the US dollar, I will be in a position to help my loved ones and my church. When I stand before Christ and have to give an account of my stewardship of the wealth He has provided, the family He has given to me (daily devotionals), and all the talents I have (logic seems to be my one area to shine for the Lord) I do hope to hear, “Well done my good and faithful servant.”
The reason I search for Truth is because God is Truth. I have in the past believed things that were Wrong…I have believed “a lie” but when provided evidence to the contrary I have changed my opinion. I claim no absolute knowledge of Truth….only God possesses absolute Truth, which is why I seek it and discard any opinion I hold that is contrary to facts and logical reasoning. The Laws of Logic were devised by God. They were given to us as a means to discern truth from error. Unfortunately we live in a world where truth is relevant. Unfortunately far too many Christians have rejected absolute truth….they have behave in the traditions of men.
Mike: I decided to read your last post, just to correct your faulty assumptions about what I do or do not believe.
” I know that in your opinion, God is a warm fuzzy guy that only loves.”
You are SO wrong about me Mike, SO wrong. Yes, God is Love, but I DO believe He is a HOLY God, a righteous God, and has to judge the wicked.
”You believe that He will not condemn the unrighteous”
THAT is absolutely WRONG too!
I love the Truth too, so somewhere along the line someone is not interpreting the Bible the right way…….maybe if we pray for each other Mike, that someone will come to know the Truth……and the Truth shall make them free. So ends this discussion.
mherman, would you be interested in proof that the Pretribulational Rapture does Great Harm to the Body of Christ?
Mike and mherman, would you be interested in proof that young earth creationism does Great Harm to the Body of Christ? In fact it has killed Christianity and all we have left is the rotting corpse. Christianity as we know it will not exist ten years from now.
Bernie: “Mike and mherman, would you be interested in proof that young earth creationism does Great Harm to the Body of Christ? In fact it has killed Christianity and all we have left is the rotting corpse. Christianity as we know it will not exist ten years from now.”
Fire away. I have stated before that I am agnostic on the whole old earth, new earth debate. In my opinion it is not critical to Christianity nor the Bible itself. I am sure when I meet my Lord, He will point out where I got His word wrong. But go ahead, I am interested. I might take it up as my next study.
BTW, off this topic, The USD is under 79 USDX and gold is hovering near resistance $950.
Another BTW, there is an article in Rolling Stone Mag. on the current debacle.
Here is part of the piece.
“If America is circling the drain, Goldman Sachs has found a way to be that drain – an extremely unfortunate loophole in the system of Western democratic capitalism, which never foresaw that in a society governed passively by free markets and free elections, organized greed always defeats disorganized democracy.”
-Matt Taibbi, Goldman Sachs: The Great American Bubble Machine, Rolling Stone Magazine, July 2, 2009, issue 1082-1083
Do you ever read it?
Mike, you should read the latest Economist (july 18th – 24th), especially pp 65-73, for a more nuanced look at the problems of modern economic theory (as practiced the past 60 years) and where to go from here. Also, you would enjoy the article on p 28, “Unwelcome attention” on proposed oversight of the federal reserve.
BTW, I find Matt Taibbi’s commentary always insightful although usually way too far to the left in his conclusions.
Hello kash, good to here from you. I will check into those articles. Matt may be far to the left but on the subject of Goldman Sachs he has nailed it. Ever wonder why so many of the Secretaries of the Treasury these past few years come from Wall Street, especially Goldman Sachs. Like I have been say, its the Banksters people. They have walked away with hundreds of billions of dollar stuffed into their pockets while ruining the greatest nation to ever exist. If Petco must be audited annually, why not the FED?
I’ve completed a lengthy review of how the Pretribulational Rapture does great harm to the Church and the Word of God. Those of you that cling to this ideology must recognize this FACT. Believe what you will….that is man’s nature….and we all know what the Bible says about our “nature.”
This comes from Ray Comfort’s site. Ray is a devout Christian that truly has a heart for the Lord, except when it comes to eschatology he cannot answer a simple question. This message is broken up into three parts. This is part 1:
Here is the question posed to Ray by a nonbeliever:
In Mark 14:62 in response to the chief priests and the council who have posed the question ‘are you the Christ,’ Jesus says: ‘I am. And YOU will SEE me sitting at the right hand of power, and COMING with the clouds of heaven.’ Did those men SEE him coming with the clouds or sitting in power? They almost certainly saw him die, but the Bible never confirms that this prophecy was fulfilled. In fact, when the Bible record ends, his disciples are still awaiting His coming. It never happened. It still hasn’t happened 2000 years later. Why Ray? Is Jesus a False Prophet?”
RAY’S response:
You forgot that the hour is coming when all that are in their graves shall hear His voice (see John 5:28). There is going to be a resurrection of the just and the unjust (see John 5:29). Every eye will see Him. The chief priests will bow the knee before Him. So will Hitler and every murderer, rapist, thief and liar. Richard Dawkins will bow down to Jesus Christ as Lord of the Universe and Creator of all things (see Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10). By Him, everything was created (see Colossians 1:16) and every human being will see him in His glory, including you. John saw the resurrected Christ and trembled in terror. He shines with a brightness above that of the sun (see Acts 26:13).
So it would be wise to stop asking whether He was a false prophet. Instead confess and forsake your sins, and put your trust in Him while He extends His mercy to sinful men and women. He has waited for 2,000 years because He is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance. Everything Jesus said would happen has happened throughout history (see Matthew 24 and Luke 21), and you can therefore bet your very soul that those men to whom Jesus said will see His coming, as sure as Hell will see it.
MIKE’S comment: Now this is all very scriptural but it does not answer the question posed, “Was Jesus a false prophet?”
Part 2:
ATHEIST Andy Duchemin chimes in:
Come on you atheist fools, isn’t it obvious? It’s all down to how you interpret it! Jesus might have said they’d see him returning but he really meant is that they WOULDN’T see him returning, what are you stupid or something?
When the bible says that you’re meant to bash your disobedient child’s skull open with rocks it really means DON’T smother his brains on the desert floor.
You stupid atheists really don’t know how to read the bible properly!
I hope you understood my sarcasm there. It seems to be the Christians duty to jump through hoops to twist, distort and otherwise alter what their book says in order to keep from admitting they might be wrong.
MIKE’S comment: Note the last sentence, “It seems to be the Christians duty to jump through hoops to twist, distort and otherwise alter what their book says in order to keep from admitting they might be wrong.” He has a point. Near, come quickly, the time is at hand means 2000 years into the future while “this generation” really means “that generation” and on and on it goes.
NONBELIEVER, Lurker:
Shorter Questioner: “How do you know Jesus was not a false prophet?”
Shorter Ray: “Who cares? Believe in Him anyway.”
I don’t know about you guys, but I know I’m convinced.
NONBELIEVER, Phil G. CHIMES IN”
I won’t be bowing to him – not for one second!
Now, ignoring for the moment that he doesn’t exist, the nasty, malicious, vindictive, angry, bullying, violent, manipulative, mysogonistic, vile, incompetent, apology for a deity you claim to exist and to worship is not worthy of me or my worship.
Now I know that if you bother to reply you’ll tell me that I’m wrong and that I’ll regret all this when I meet him and you’ll quote meaningless, unsubstantiated passages from your magic fairy tale book but as none of it has any basis in reality whatsoever – I really don’t care.
In reality I pity you wasting your lives cowering in front of an imaginaray bully, only behaving because you’re scared of him and loving him because he tells you to.
MIKE’S comment: Speaking of not understanding the Bible…no proper interpretation, Phil is able to make God in the image he sees, “, the nasty, malicious, vindictive, angry, bullying, violent, manipulative, mysogonistic, vile, incompetent, apology for a deity you claim to exist and to worship is not worthy of me or my worship.” It is so sad that there is no one around to teach him how to interpret scripture. Certainly those that say “this generation” means “that generation” and near, the time is at hand, etc. means some point in the distant future should be credible interpreters to Phil.
ANOTHER NONBELIEVER, Beam Stalk writes:
Lurker said…
Shorter Questioner: “How do you know Jesus was not a false prophet?”
Shorter Ray: “Who cares? Believe in Him anyway.”
You are close, no the shorter answer is, the Bible says so.
To which you ask, how do you know the Bible is true?
Because God said so.
How do you know what God said?
The Bible tells us.
So see it is really the Bible proves God, who then proves the Bible, which then proves God, who then proves the Bible, which then proves God, going around and around in circles.
MIKE’S comment: The Bible calls us to be witnesses….to give a REASON for the hope that lies within us. “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” or better yet “God said, that settles it” may be a great bumper sticker but it makes a poor defense of scripture and certainly provides no reason for the hope that lies within us.
Part 3 (Note: I had to break it down into 4 parts so there is a part 4)
FELIX, another NONBELIEVER WRITES:
Yes, the definition of wisdom is ’stop asking, look the other way, and believe this here story someone I never met allegedly told someone whose fragmented writing I happen to have. Want to buy a copy?’.
Ray, this post of yours explains a lot. I think it explains more than you wanted it to.
FINALLY A BELIEVER RESPONDS with this:
The Holy Bible clearly shows us in the Old Testament and the New Testament that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
He was also GOD in the flesh, the WORD, a Holy Phrophet, Teacher, Counselor, Master, Lord of Lords, and King of Kings to name a few.
His honors included ‘The Bright and Morning Star’, and the ‘LIGHT of the World’.
There are more, but these stand out in my mind.
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‘The Wisdom of this World’
The Word of GOD, the Holy Bible, is the ultimate source of knowledge in this world, but is usually on the shelf, and obscure from our daily walk of life. A new King James version, or King James version is the most accurate that I know of.
This is the biggest mistake we make as Christians. We need to set aside time to read each day and pray. Personal prayer will put things into perspective when we deal with the world and the non-believers.
The Holy Scriptures (Holy Bible) is the final WORD on the subject.
There is no “maybe the bible is wrong on this” to be considered.
We simply misinterpreted it, or took it out of its ‘true teaching’
as the atheists do frequently!
What I think, Ray thinks, or anyone else is of no consequence.
We make mistakes, but the WORD is inerrant. The Holy Bible is supernaturally inspired by GOD.
I make a point of taking my Bible with me to church, and I follow the pastor in a sermon. I trust no man to feed me with GOD’s Holy WORD.
Fear the LORD and his commandments, and Feed on his WORD each day, and pray.
GOD gave it to us to learn from and it plainly tells us that JESUS CHRIST is the Son of GOD, the Light of the World, and our Savior.
We NEED to Repent of our sins, and trust in Jesus Christ.
The problem we have in this world is allowing men’s opinions, books, and false religions to intervene and deceive us with man’s so called ‘wisdom’ in eternal matters.
There is no debate, the Holy Bible tells us “His Son” is our Savior, and our KING.
END OF STORY. I don’t care what the Koran says on it.
There is ONLY One WAY to eternal LIFE, His TRUTH is the WORD (Jesus Christ), and if we follow HIM, we will not perish in the flames.
If you listen to the world and its wisdom, you will end up in the ‘flames’ with the god of this world. satan has deceived mankind with Islam, Mormonism, ..etc.
If you listen to this world you will believe that we are simply in a recession, there is no one world government on the horizon, and All our politicians are HONEST.
If you listen to this world you will think that Oprah Winfrey’s religion is the ‘true path’.
Don’t be ‘fooled’ by these LIES, search the holy scriptures yourself and pray about it to our GOD! and end your prayer in “Jesus name I pray”. No other.
In His Love,
Terry Burton
MIKE’S comment: A lovely response; however, where it the REASON for the hope that lies within us?
How would I have responded to the initial question? Let’s take it step by step from the stand point that Jesus’ prophecies actually did take place just as He said they would, right down to the timing.
THE QUESTIONER states: Jesus says: ‘I am. And YOU will SEE me sitting at the right hand of power, and COMING with the clouds of heaven.’ Did those men SEE him coming with the clouds or sitting in power? They almost certainly saw him die, but the Bible never confirms that this prophecy was fulfilled. In fact, when the Bible record ends, his disciples are still awaiting His coming.”
Mike’s response to “will SEE me sitting at the right hand of power, and COMING with the clouds of heaven.’” This is reference in Daniel to the Son of Man, Jesus, ascending to the Father which Daniel calls the “Anciet of Days” a Hebrew reference to God. Jesus’ greatest prophecy was regarding the temple’s destruction. With the sacking of Jerusalem and the complete destruction of the 2nd Temple, Herod’s temple, the sacrificial age would come to an end. A new covenant, the covenant established by Christ, the REAL Temple with each believer, would be established. I would guess that every Jew knew of Jesus’ predictions. Christians were preaching it even under persecution. It is mentioned in 3 different Gospels. THEREFORE; when the temple was destroyed, just as Jesus said it would be, all those that knew of the prophecy had the proof they needed to know the promised Messiah had indeed come just as scripture said He would.
But you say, the Bible says they would “see”, they didn’t see squat. OK, let’s look at the verb “see”. First of all even a first grader knows that words mean different things so I assume those reading this message have at least a first grade education. If I say, “I think I see the cat hiding behind the couch.” The literal interpretation is, “I visually see the cat hiding behind the couch.” If on the other hand my science teacher is explaining the origins of the universe, and I say, “Oh, now I see how it all happened,” am I referring to visually seeing the origins of the universe? Of course not. The OT is full of examples of “seeing” that do not relate to a visual event. We so the same in the English language. “Do you SEE what I mean?”
Part 4:
Like I have stated, the Pretribulation Rapture ideology does great harm to the Body of Christ. Furthermore, I believe it is part of the reason why so many young people leave the Church when they go off to college. If Ray Comfort, a devout Christian, and student of the Bible cannot defend this part of scripture, what hope is there for the 18 to 22 year olds that face the scoffing professors day in and day out. Bart Ehrman, the head of Religious Studies at UNC –Chapel Hill, NC, has made it his mission to “expose” the Bible as a book that cannot be trusted. He has written several books where he takes scripture and “proves” it is wrong. I’ve read some of his work and from what I can tell, the man does not know how to interpret scripture.
Here are Bart’s credentials: Ehrman began studying the Bible and its original languages at the Moody Bible Institute and is a 1978 graduate of Wheaton College in Illinois. He received his Ph.D and M.Div. from Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied under Bruce Metzger. He currently serves as the chairman of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
The only people I know of to have successfully debated this man and tore down ALL of his arguments are those that come from the Partial Preterist view. The dispensationalists are dead before they get started.
mherman, I don’t know whether or not you will read these messages. What you and all Christians believe is between you and the Lord. But you cannot say, I did not back up my position with facts. I urge you to read Hank’s book. I doubt you will; it goes against what you believe and people are more comfortable believing whatever they suits them.
mherman and Bernie, you may be interested in this article by Gary Demar. In it he presents some interesting points about the new earth vs. old earth debate and then goes on to discuss “How modern eschatology has led to so many of our young people leaving the Church. mherman, when I say this ideology does great harm I am not drawing my conclusions from thin air. I was once a young person that made fun of the Bible, called it the greatest novel ever written, due in large part to all the nonsense about “the end of the world.”
Bernie, this article goes into what believers believe about the age of the earth. Like I said, it is an issue upon which I am agnostic. I just haven’t looked into it all that much. But either way, I know I will be in good company and someday I will know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth for I will stand before Truth and Light.
Here is the article:
http://www.americanvision.org/article/why-young-people-are-leaving-the-church/
#218. Give it a rest.
Here are some reasons from the mouths of the young as to why so many are leaving the church. Notice that at the core is, “the church has become ‘irrelevant’ it cannot answer our questions.
1st young person: Please. Kids aren’t leaving the church because of evolution. We’re leaving the church because of the just plain bad doctrine we’re taught. Also that we’re taught to ignore our doubts (doubts are bad, after all!). So finally, everything adds up. Nothing makes sense, and since “to be a Christian means to push away all doubt”, when we decide to question, many of us leave the church.
2nd: Coming from a youth in all honesty, I don’t attend church since i find it all to be nonsense. Judemental people and nonsense.
SUNDAY IS FOR SLEEPING
3rd person is a parent: It makes me sad to see so many people leaving, but I wouldn’t blame evolution, secularists, or atheists. It is our fault if our kids leave. We should be blaming the church for not being relevant in our young people’s lives.
4th: “….what ought we do with those passages that don’t make sense or don’t add up when compared to scientific theory (e.g. the fiery furnace, Samson’s inhuman strength, stories of dragons, etc.)? Write them off as outdated? Then where do we draw the line, and why were they not outdated at the time? Assuming we take them as metaphors and try to extract their poetic meaning, then how do we distinguish between metaphorical passages and literal ones? Clearly, Revelations has a great deal of imagery in it, but how literal should we take the pattern of events? There’s no formula or metric, per se, so how is it not a contradiction to argue for logic and reason without a systematic way of determining their scope in regards to the Bible?”
Mike’s comment to #4: The problem as the writer so clearly states is hermeneutics. Literal interpretation is “INTERPRETING A PASSAGE IN THE WAY THE AUTHOR MEANT IT TO BE INTERPRETED.”
5th: “Perhaps this is just my experience, but many youth are less–or even un–willing to tackle big questions, and they are often far less capable of doing so. I don’t have any stats to back that statement up, just my experience, which is quite possibly skewed from location and perspective.
Your last paragraph, cynical as it was, was very true…and really sad when you think about it. If Christians claim to have the truth, then we should be able to challenge it, ask questions, and compare it to observation (i.e. science) and have it be validated, right? (Which, in my experience, it has been time and time again).
MIke’s comment: When it comes to eschatology and dispensationalism, ” If Christians claim to have the truth, then we should be able to challenge it, ask questions, and compare it to observation (i.e. science) and have it be validated, right?” this is not possible.
6th and the one that makes “the REASON for the hope that lies within us so important.”:
I used to never shut up about the Bible. I became a Christian as a very young child. I was baptized at 11. I
used to go door to door handing out tracts. I went to Christian
concerts. I used to attend an evangelical Christian school. My parents then opted out of that so they could strictly home school me with the gospel. I was discipled. It only ended when I went to college, and even then I continued going to a Southern Baptist church because my mom liked it.
Still, by 14 I was agnostic. Today, I’m a proud atheist.
Conflicts between the scientific method and faith gave me only one choice. I had to decide which was more believable. In the name of curiosity, I conducted thought-experiments with myself about what it’d be like if my faith was wrong. Slowly, I began to see religious faith as a tool used by those in power to exploit the unquestioning and the weak for their money and political support. Since I couldn’t scientifically (eg, objectively) back up my own religion, I couldn’t reject other major religions also based upon faith. I rejected faith entirely.
Mike’s comment: Out of the mouth of babes. Those of you that promote the Rapture, keep in mind that God calls on you to give a REASON. If you cannot adequately do this with any part of scripture then keep quiet on it until you can.
mherman: “#218. Give it a rest.” Did you not read ANY of what I presented regarding the great harm the Rapture does to the body of Christ. Are you telling me that you do not care about the harm done to God’s word? You telling me to “give it a rest” would be like Bernie telling you to “stop promoting your silly nonsense about Jesus and God.”
In my opinion, Bernie is more honest than the Pretribbers. He at least gives a reason for NOT believing.
mhermen, read through what young people are saying as to why they are leaving the church, then come back and tell me to give it a rest. In response to “give it a rest” will say, “either support what you say about scripture using sound hermeneutics or stop saying it.” If you cannot defend what you believe….if you cannot defend scripture then consider where you are in your walk with Christ Are you able to digest the meat or are you still on the milk?
mherman, I have not been writing about eschatology from the stand point of interpretation. Now I am dealing with a more important subject, its impact on the Body of Christ. I have been saying that it does great harm. Apparently I am not alone. Not only does the Rapture bring few to Christ, but those that come eventually lose faith as they see the same old song sung over and over again. One then has to question how many young people or nonbelievers are put off by the End Times insanity.
Even if true, which I doubt, Jesus told us not to deal with the issue…”no one knows but the Father.” Could it be that Jesus knew that if we got into a guessing game regarding his 2nd coming, which I do believe, it would create nothing but chaos and do harm to the work of His Church?
Fire away. I have stated before that I am agnostic on the whole old earth, new earth debate. In my opinion it is not critical to Christianity nor the Bible itself.
Answer: I agree that it isn’t critical that a believer hold to either a young or old earth but it also isn’t critical if a believer accepts evolutionary theory either. I think creationism of any kind including and especially Intelligent Design is the biggest reason people especially young people reject their Christian faith. Most Christians who aren’t literal Bible believers don’t even know Jesus is supposed to return. There are other reasons ex-Christians give for leaving their faith besides eschatology such as a disagreement with their religion’s stance on political or social issues. Others are feeling disconnected from other Christians or see other believers as judgmental or hypocritical.
All religions have some kind of eschatology and people have always interpreted it differently. This is because all relig