Are your kids already gone?
Posted by truthtalklive on 1 July, 2009
Today Stu speaks with Ken Ham the author of “Already Gone: Why your kids will quit church and what you can do to stop it“. How do we get our youth back to church? Mr. Ham is also a radio talk show host which can be heard on 900 radio stations world wide. His radio program is called “Answers with Ken Ham“. As always, thank you for listening and we look foward to your comments!
WE HAVE 3 GIVE AWAYS TOADAY TUNE IN AT 5PM (EST)!
Mr. Ham is the president/CEO and founder of Answers in Genesis-U.S. and the highly acclaimed Creation Museum, Ken Ham is one of the most in-demand Christian speakers in North America.
Find us on: 
42 Comments on “Are your kids already gone?”
Mr. Ham, your contributions to the academic and scientific community are most helpful in emphasizing the importance of a sound education, an open mind, a healthy degree of skepticism, and the humility and wisdom to both recognize and admit when one is wrong. Thank you for your efforts[smile].
Poor Ken Ham. He doesn’t realize that he is part of the problem, not the solution, to young people leaving the church. It’s not the public schools - after all, if what he claimed were true, our children wouldn’t score so poorly on science tests compared to children in other countries. Its not like the people leaving the church are experts in comparative philosophy or paleobiology or geology or physics (all of which Mr. Ham apparently thinks are damaging to the Bible). In fact, as Bob keeps pointing out, most Americans still don’t believe evolution, even though they also dont go to church and are Christian only in the sense that they are white Americans. The “Creation Museum” uses technology that wouldn’t be possible without atomic theory (which tells us that the earth IS billions of years old) to create a Jurassic Park like experience that people say brings the Bible to life….and they don’t even see the inherent contradiction in that statement!!! The Bible is irrelevant to people today because the Bible is a profound work about a profound God who created a profound universe. Ken Ham and his ilk preach a wooden literal Bible about a wooden literal God and a wooden, literal universe that is so out of step with the modern understanding of the cosmos that it makes Jesus Himself look one dimensional and as fake as the animatronics at the Creation Museum.
Yes, churches need to offer serious Bible study, and serious study of the church fathers (who were not wooden literalists, that is a fairly recent phenomena in response to a fear of a big universe and what a small part of it humans are), and serious discussion of philosophy and how it is compatible with scripture. But that is hard intellectual work, and most people prefer paragraph long daily devotionals. And American Idol. Most people have not even actually ever read the Bible in its entirety, so no wonder their children get confused when they take classes in college where professors actually know what is in the Bible and it alarms and confuses kids who only know about Noah and a few of Jesus’ easier parables. But places like the Creation Museum and the Holy Land Expereince don’t encourage serious Bible study, they encourage people to live in a pretend world and keep God in a tiny little box. Breaking out of that box takes real courage and real trust in a transcendent, profound Savior, one that can not be diminished by scientific discovery or philosophical debate because He is the source of all intelligence.
Kash, that is a very good point. I suspect that the cause of moral relativism in this country and in Europe is more closley related to the Reformation than to evolution. It is essentially every man for himself when it comes to exegesis. This opens the door wide for moral compramise since it is usually more convenyant. It seems as if the evangelical community lacks any real leadership and has a false sense of unity based on vague doctrinal statements. I agree that reviewing the early church councils and writings by the church fathers would greatly help strengthen a christian’s faith. Many of the early church fathers were well educated in philosophy, rhetoric as well as astute students of scripture. It would also be helpful for evangelicals to know more world history and church history, seeing how they are both closely connected.
Well put, kash. It seems ironic that the same man who claims to be interested in helping people to defend the truth of the Bible is also intimately interested in perpetuating the lie that young-Earth creationism is compatible with science.
Kash: One questions WHO actually is wrong here! Kids have been leaving the Church for years……..so don’t go accusing Ken of being the problem. Ken and his ilk have been brave enough to be at the forefront of the evolutionists derogatory and insulting remarks, but I Praise God for raising up men, and women like this who are not afraid to speak the truth, and not intimidated by such arrogance and ignorance as is displayed sometimes from the atheist aswell as other evolutionist camps. And don’t go accusing him of poor science test results either. And he doesn’t think that science in all it’s different fields is damaging to the Bible either……it’s just the evolutionists worldview that is damaging to the truth.
And what has being white got to do with being a Christian anyway!! America is full of allsorts!!
”Ken Ham and his ilk preach a wooden literal Bible about a wooden literal God and a wooden, literal universe that is so out of step with the modern understanding of the cosmos that it makes Jesus Himself look one dimensional and as fake as the animatronics at the Creation Museum.”
So what does ”wooden” really mean!? God is a literal God, He literally exists, and more often than not He speaks literally. It’s the evolutionists that are the ones out of step…….. with God. They are blind to all that they see of His CREATION……. not evolution by chance mutations. God has PURPOSE in all He does, He leaves NOTHING to chance!!
”But places like the Creation Museum and the Holy Land Expereince don’t encourage serious Bible study, they encourage people to live in a pretend world and keep God in a tiny little box.”
One wonders WHO is creating that ”tiny little box”! I’m certainly not in a box….I’v been set free to know the truth. And Ken Ham does encourage serious Bible study…..he likes to teach the parts that other Christian ministers and ministeries don’t touch…or don’t want to!!
”Breaking out of that box takes real courage and real trust in a transcendent, profound Savior, one that can not be diminished by scientific discovery or philosophical debate because He is the source of all intelligence.”
Well courageous Kash, God is certainly NOT diminished by the Creationist, infact it is the evolutionist….and the Theistic evolutionist (who should know better!!) that diminishes Gods creation down to those chance mutations in evolution. But, you see it is not always the intelligent that come to see the truth in Jesus Christ, very often it is just that child-like faith that brings a person to the knowledge of the truth. The worlds wisdom means nothing to God, His wisdom can be understood by a little child!!
mherman: “And he doesn’t think that science in all it’s different fields is damaging to the Bible either……”
Then why does he deny science? Why does he distort its findings? Why does he lie about what evolution proposes? Why does he misrepresent what “evolutionists” believe?
If he’s trying to defend the truth, he has an awfully odd way of doing it. Regrettably, though, “lying for Jesus” is not an uncommon tactic among creationist teachers.
mherman: “God has PURPOSE in all He does, He leaves NOTHING to chance!!”
The idea that God works through chance was not paradoxical to the author of Proverbs, arguably the wisest man who ever lived [16:33]. Why do *you* deny it? Why should we take *your* say-so about how God works over Scripture’s?
mherman: “But, you see it is not always the intelligent that come to see the truth in Jesus Christ, very often it is just that child-like faith that brings a person to the knowledge of the truth. The worlds wisdom means nothing to God, His wisdom can be understood by a little child!!”
True enough. But there are tools adults have to separate deep truth from deep nonsense. “When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things” [1 Corinthians 13:11]. Do not let the ideal of “child-like faith” excuse believing in things that are clearly wrong to anyone willing to open their eyes to plain, direct observation.
This is largely an ages-old repost with some phrases slightly changed in an attempt to clarify (the original is in “Is it possible for preachers to preach on evolution?”, post 124), but even so:
Ken Ham claims that evolutionists believe that opals take about 30 million years to form, and adds that he has a friend that can make them in a few weeks. Of course, he neglects to mention the difference between natural and synthetic opals, or that natural opals are geologically unstable in the long term (180 million years), and fails to address why, if the geologic column was deposited by the flood, we find no opals in rock strata we age as older than 125 million years old. (There is such a thing as lying by omission. Many of his “evidences”, sadly, are lies by omission.)
Ken Ham claims that evolutionists will tell you that feathers are the product of random, chance processes acting over millions of years. (This shows a basic misunderstanding of evolution itself.) He also claims that evolution holds that feathers evolved in the first place to help some dinosaurs jump higher and farther.
Ken Ham lies about transitional forms, wishing them away with little justification (e.g., the assertion that there are no partial dinosaur fossils in spite of, say, theocodonts).
Ken Ham asserts that mutations are “mistakes”. This is particularly peculiar when he brings it up with respect to poodles, since it is precisely those mutations that made their owners want to keep the traits they produced above those found in the general canine stock.
Ken Ham claims that, to an evolutionist, “vestigial” — as in “vestigial organs” — means “useless”.
Ken Ham claims that the Big Bang Theory holds that the Sun was created before the Earth.
Ken Ham claims that the echidna and the platypus present problems for evolution.
Ken Ham maintains that evolution is scientifically weak because it is not a “proven fact”. Nothing in science is a “proven fact”, and it is misleading to pretend that something is scientifically weak because it shares something in common with all of science.
Ken Ham insists that measurements taken that show the Earth’s magnetic field weakening over time proves, if one backs it up, that the Earth cannot be older than a few thousand years — when the Earth’s magnetic field is produced using dynamo action, and Cowling’s Theorem proved that the magnetic field of a dynamo cannot follow any linear trend nearly two centuries ago!
Ken Ham maintains that as feldspars age, they turn into clay purely because they get old (ignoring the extra materials, circumstances, and chemical reactions needed to make this happen).
Ken Ham lies about the steps a scale must go through to become a feather.
Ken Ham asserts that the entire fossil record was deposited by a global flood, when the available fossil record has far too many organisms to represent the biosphere at any single moment in time.
Should I go on? Do you need any clarification as to why these statements contradict fact? (And this list doesn’t even address the phenomena Ken Ham won’t touch that corroborate evolution and contradict instantaneous creation.)
You should not HAVE to go on Matt F., for such evidences of Young Earth Christian Creationism’s flaws in regards to science and history, and what those who believe in real science and history think/teach others are easily available for almost anyone almost anywhere to find and see.
Maz post 5,
Maz, I can appreciate and respect your passion for supporting what you think is the right thing, but alas, you have been misled on this matter.
Ken Ham moved to the United States because he knew he couldn’t promote his brand of idiocy in Australia. So he came to the good ole USA where it’s okay to be wrong.
John: And evolution has it’s own flaws and problems! And they increase the more that scientists discover!! And OH that ”real science” thing again. YAAAAAWWWNNN!!
Passion…YES! Misled….NO! Eternity will tell……and mine won’t be a worry if you are right!
Yours on the other hand doesn’t bear thinking about….but only you have the power to change that.
Bernie: Absolure rubbish! His ministry is international! People all over the world read the ministries magazine ”Answers” and thank him for the information about what science REALLY shows!!
mherman: “And evolution has it’s own flaws and problems! And they increase the more that scientists discover!!”
Unanswered questions aren’t “flaws and problems”, Maz. As one who claims to love science, you should know this.
mherman: “Passion…YES! Misled….NO!”
Then why doesn’t he *tell the truth*?
Answer: Science doesn’t “show” information. It USES it to make the world a better place by PRODUCING viable results. The science of evolution has created better medicines, better food crops, better poisons to protect those crops and many other things that have improved the lives of humans and animals everywhere. Creationists and ID magic promoters on the other hand have produced exactly nothing. Creation “scientists” cannot produce better medicines, better foods, better poisons or anything else. All they produce is books, propaganda against real science and scientists. That isn’t doing science it isn’t doing anything. Creationism and ID are useless because they cannot produce any viable results that can improve the lives of anyone. That is why creationism and ID magic are not science and they never will be. Case closed.
Bark all you want mherman but until creationists poduce something useful besides books full of lies they cannot be taken seriously.
Maz post10,
Did I ever deny that there are problems within our understanding of the Natural Sciences? No.
However the problems that are mentioned by the Ken Hams of the world are usually untrue.
We are only flawed mortals with a flawed understanding…BUT..our understanding gets better with every year, and nothing that people like Ken Ham can change that.
Would you like to share with us all a list of evolutionary problems?
Bonus points to you if they are problems that prove evolution to be a myth.
“And OH that “real science” thing again. YAAAAAWWWNNN!!”
Yes, that real science thing…..quite a bummer how it always seems to hang around, never really going away, and rears it’s ugly head to bite Young Earth Christian Creationism on the backside, eh?
You’re seeming ability to not recognize when you’ve been beaten would be admirable under the right situations, but this is not one.
Do you actually think that your eternity will be based upon your understanding of science? If so, then if I didn’t know any better I’d think that you were promoting the idea that only the willfully ignorant could enter the Kingdom of Heaven[smile].
And we have already discussed the afterlife Maz. I have my own Heaven to go to after death.
Perhaps after your dead you could petition for some sort of a “celestial pass” and come over for a visit with me. My Heaven’s not near as exclusive as yours is[smile].
Bernie: Science reveals the world we live in….we can know it better by scientific discovery.
”The science of evolution has created better medicines”
And many scientists who were Christians have produced much in medicine and other fields of science. Or do you tend to deliberately forget that fact?
”Bark all you want mherman but until creationists poduce something useful besides books full of lies they cannot be taken seriously.”
So you have read ALL their books then? And everything in them was a lie eh? Mmmmm. I think you have run out of anything sensible to say and are now just full of hot air.
I’m beginning to think that it is pointless debating with someone so dishonest.
I’m NOT dishonest but just about everyone on this blog knows you are. Many Christian scientists have produced results but not one of them ever used the Bible or your creationist fantasies as the basis for anything. So again, until creationism or ID magic poduces some viable, useful results it remains the hoax it has already been proved it is. It is quite pointless for you to debate me because you don’t know anything about science or the Bible and other bloggers have constantly pointed this out.
John: ”However the problems that are mentioned by the Ken Hams of the world are usually untrue.”
Like what? You go first!
”Bonus points to you if they are problems that prove evolution to be a myth.”
Yes, I can see you now, throwing your arms up in the air and saying loudly and excitedly…”I SEE!! I SEE!! Evolution is a myth!!” Really John, it wouldn’t matter what I showed you……I’v been on here long enough to know that, because I have tried almost everything to show you evolution is a myth and just a theory, and you just come back with the usual evolutionary dogma.
”Do you actually think that your eternity will be based upon your understanding of science? ”
No, it’s based on my faith in Jesus Christ being the Son of God and the Savior of the world. And He has proven Himself to me over many years.
”If so, then if I didn’t know any better I’d think that you were promoting the idea that only the willfully ignorant could enter the Kingdom of Heaven[smile].”
Let’s put it this way John, those who are willfully ignorant of God and His great love for them will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven…..even if they have PhD’s and lots of other letters after their name.
”Perhaps after your dead you could petition for some sort of a “celestial pass” and come over for a visit with me. My Heaven’s not near as exclusive as yours is[smile].”
If my Heaven exists (and I know it does) then yours won’t, so that wouldn’t be a possibility. It would be far nicer, if sometime in your life before you die you actually become a Christian, we could meet in Heaven and have a laugh over all this! I prefer to laugh myself don’t you?
Bernie: Well, we could carry on calling each other dishonest and ignorant and whatever else comes to mind…….but to be honest….(cough
) I am growing weary of the rhetoric, you are so entrenched in your ideas about YEC and ”fundies” and all the other things you call us so fondly, that I don’t want to waste any more time with you. I’v tried. God is the Only One Whocan do miracles so I will have to leave you with Him.
Maz post 17,
“Like what? You go first!”
[Grin]
Hmmmm, what to say about a man who within his Creation Museum, has a Baryonyx doctored up with a bunch of spikes and horns and a pair of dog ears that it never had[so as to make it look like a dragon, to "prove" that dragons of myth and legend were REALLY just dinosaurs that man lived with] and a Triceratops wearing an English saddle[to help "prove" that men not only lived with the dinosaurs, but used them as draft animals as well].
It’s difficult to know where to start first, Maz. How about his assumption that all mutations are harmful, leading to biological degradation? For starters.
I can applaud his passion to try and fight against what he considers to be a threat to humanity and Christianity, but he lacks focus and is a hypocrite and a liar.
“If my Heaven exists (and I know it does) then yours won’t, so that wouldn’t be a possibility.”
Too bad. And to think of all of those poor people that had been worshiping and dying with their own afterlife in mind for thousands of years before Judaism and Christianity came into the scene.
My theological belief system is just as old if not older than yours and you can’t prove that my afterlife doesn’t exist, so there[ raspberry, with the the thumb of my right hand on my nose and fingers wiggling energetically].
Yes Maz, I an rather fond of laughing[grin].
The Creation Museum puts the Bible on the same level as Disneyworld, so it is no surprise that many people outgrow it just like they outgrow Mickey Mouse if that is how they think of the Bible.
At least Disneyworld makes no bones about being a place of fantasy and amusements, though[smile].
Nobody over the age of 14 goes through the “Haunted Mansion” ride thinking that they’ve just experienced absolute proof and scientific evidences of the spirit world[That ghost was sitting RIGHT IN MY LAP as the ride was ending!!! Did you SEEE it? What, you mean there was one with YOU TOO?!? Gasp!].
John: Firstly, evolutionists are good at excusing their own blunders (?!)…like ”Lucy” the walking maniquin!! (can’t find it in the dictionary!) in a museum of natural history!! But one discovery….or two, about the idea by evolutionists of how solar systems are formed is put into serious doubt by certain planets found with other stars not where they should be! Or a planet with the ‘wrong’ tilt….according to evolutionists. But anyway, you said, ”It’s difficult to know where to start first, Maz. How about his assumption that all mutations are harmful, leading to biological degradation? For starters.”
Well, for one thing, they do agree that there are some that are neutral and some (minute number) are advantageous, so that is wrong….for starters. There are not enough ‘advantageous’ mutations to credit evolution to be true though.
”I can applaud his passion to try and fight against what he considers to be a threat to humanity and Christianity, but he lacks focus and is a hypocrite and a liar.”
Well, you really will have to back that up with a clear example of a lie! (But evolutionists are not lacking in that area either….so aren’t you a hypocrite for saying so!!!)
”
Too bad. And to think of all of those poor people that had been worshiping and dying with their own afterlife in mind for thousands of years before Judaism and Christianity came into the scene.”
Neither of us were there, and no one knows how God revealed Himself to these people before Jesus came and died on the cross, but the Bible clearly shows He did, and sometimes Jesus in His pre-incarnate form (a Theophany) appeared to some OT Israelites. If they worshipped atall, it may be that God respected their worship of a God that they had not yet heard of. In the end it is between God and each individual soul.
There were many in the OT, outside of Israel that were blessed by God and were brought into the fold, so to speak, like Ruth, who just happened to become the great (howevermanytimes!) grandmother of King David, from whose line Jesus came. Or Rahab the harlot, and many other ‘’sojourners’ that chose to join the Israelites at that time.
Before that, God had been known right from Adam, and there would have been something passed down of this knowledge, but we know that the flood (which you don’t believe in) destroyed the earth and all it’s inhabitants barring 8 lives, because they had chosen to live without Him.
”
My theological belief system is just as old if not older than yours and you can’t prove that my afterlife doesn’t exist, so there[ raspberry, with the the thumb of my right hand on my nose and fingers wiggling energetically].”
No John, our God existed even before the world was created by Him! (Repeat raspberry!!) And way before your ancestors! OK, I can’t actually prove to you that your afterlife doesn’t exist, but how many people have been able to tell of their near/after death experience? Most, if not all, are almost identical. There are roughly two experiences…….a shining light and a beautiful place of peace that no one wants to come back from, somtimes including seeing Jesus, or there is the other……a terrible, dark, hopeless, place of burning and hellish screams! I don’t like the idea of hell anymore than you or Bernie does, but God has made a way for us not to go there, and wouldn’t we be absolutely insane not to accept the free gift of Jesus sacrifice on the cross to stop from going there.
Do you know of other stories, that maybe fit your impression of what your heaven would be like?
Ha ha ha! I like the raspberry!! (Cute grin)
Kash and John: VERY funny!! But the last laugh will be on you!
Good grief, Maz, now making fun of the Creationist Museum is enough to condemn me to hell? Talk about the letter of the law instead of the spirit…
Kash: #24. SO, can you point me to where I said that…or even implied it??????!!
I must have misunderstood what you meant with your warning the “the last laugh” would be on John and me.
Kash: Nothing to do with hell, I meant you would know the truth eventually.
I know the truth now, His name is Jesus.
Kash: Yes, Jesus is The Truth, I was talking about the truth (of whatever we were talking about…I’v forgotten now!).
Maz post 22,
“Firstly, evolutionists are good at excusing their own blunders(?!)…”
An odd thing to say Maz, considering how darned hard evolutionary scientists work to verify their research and gather information. When have any of us evolutionists that you’ve tried to debate with simply “excused evolutionary blunders”? Need I remind you that it is the evolutionistic scientists themselves which recognize, criticize, and correct evolutionary mistakes and hoaxes.
Since when has the Creation Institute ever done this? Refining misinformation is still just misinformation, and criticisms of evolution based on theological assumptions are not worth a darn as evidences against science. You mention “Lucy”…have you even seen the modern research results/theory on this creature?
Then you talk about planets and the solar system, which although interesting, has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Then, you talk about mutations and evolution…..wow, it’s like, you never remember ANYTHING that we show you. After all of these posts on all of these sites and it’s as if you’ve dragged us right back to the very beginning all over again. Denial of evidences is not evidence against something Maz.
“Well you really have to back that up with a clear example of a lie!”
You mean like, when you asked for and we gave you clear examples of evolutionary evidences/transitional life forms/ancient universe and ancient Earth evidences/etc.etc.? And you not only denied all of it, but then seemingly forgot all about it only to ask about it again and again and again… I’ll do it, even if you’ll ignore or deny it as usual. What about lying by admission, want those examples as well? Matt F. already covered some of these, but you are foolishly ignoring his input on this matter.
I have to go right now, but I’ll return and give you what you want as well as respond to the rest of your post later.
John: ”An odd thing to say Maz, considering how darned hard evolutionary scientists work to verify their research and gather information. When have any of us evolutionists that you’ve tried to debate with simply “excused evolutionary blunders”?”
You’re kidding aren’t you!
”Then you talk about planets and the solar system, which although interesting, has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about.”
Evolutionary thinking goes throughout all the sciences John, you should know that, evolution is not just about the animals on earth, it’s about everything in the Universe. Apparently they say it all evolved from the Big Bang, including the galaxies and the solar system. But they are finding out many things in the animal kingdom that are changing their evolutionary thinking….like little spanners in the works (oops…there goes a spanner…GRIN).
”
Then, you talk about mutations and evolution…..wow, it’s like, you never remember ANYTHING that we show you.”
And visa versa?! (Another big grin with raised eyebrows!)
”After all of these posts on all of these sites and it’s as if you’ve dragged us right back to the very beginning all over again. ”
I have? (Surprised expression) To be correct, we have all gone round and round in circles, and we are now starting Part 3, to go round a few more times! (Giggle!)
”
You mean like, when you asked for and we gave you clear examples of evolutionary evidences/transitional life forms/ancient universe and ancient Earth evidences/etc.etc.? ”
I wouldn’t call them ”clear examples”….I just don’t see the evidence you seem to. And I don’t always ask because I need or want to know….it’s more of a challenge for you to produce it. But the ‘evidence’ is really no evidence atall. (Grin).
And you know why I have chosen not to read MattF’s posts and there is no rule on this site that I have to. I have tried debating with him, but it is impossible.
”
I’ll return and give you what you want as well as respond to the rest of your post later.”
Really, if you don’t want to go round the May Pole again you don’t need to! (Little chuckle).
AH! This is not the Evolutionary thread Part 3! Sorry Moderator we’ve gone off topic!!
John: We could either go onto the ”Darwin” thread or just not bother. Your go. (Little grin).
….Or have we?
Maz, see post number 25 upon the related site “Should We Celebrate Darwin’s Birthday? part 3″.
And what does the Maypole have to do with this? Is it because Mother Nature seems something of a sex fanatic[grin]?
John: The Maypole was just a joke!
mherman: “And many scientists who were Christians have produced much in medicine and other fields of science.”
Yes. And this has nothing to do with the fact that understanding of evolution has created better medicines.
It’s also worth noting that the vast majority of Christian biologists and geologists accept evolution.
So what exactly *is* your point?
mherman: “So you have read ALL their books then?”
He doesn’t have to. It’s patently obvious that creationism is not science. If you’re not making mistakes, you’re doing science wrong. If you don’t correct mistakes you’re making, you’re REALLY doing it wrong. And if you claim that you can’t be making any mistakes, you’re not even doing it.
I’ve pointed out where creationism and science are inconsistent. So far, neither you nor any creationist on this forum has been able either to admit that they were mistaken or to demonstrate that these readily-observable phenomena are misunderstood. They simply — as you do — continue to assert that they *cannot be* mistaken. That’s not science. It doesn’t even allow one to be consistent with science.
Say, John, if you need a short list of some of Ken Ham’s wild inaccuracies, I’ve listed some of them in this forum.
mherman: “Firstly, evolutionists are good at excusing their own blunders (?!)…like ”Lucy” the walking maniquin!! (can’t find it in the dictionary!) in a museum of natural history!!”
Wow. Actual information? Do you have a cite for that? What exactly are you asserting?
mherman: “But one discovery….or two, about the idea by evolutionists of how solar systems are formed is put into serious doubt by certain planets found with other stars not where they should be!”
Which ones? Why are they not where they should be?
mherman: “Or a planet with the ‘wrong’ tilt….according to evolutionists.”
Which one?
This list may be the closest you’ve ever come to giving some kind of evidence, Maz. Don’t stop there. Show us the information so that we can all appreciate the implications.
mherman: “Well, you really will have to back that up with a clear example of a lie!”
I posted a *list* that you’ve conveniently ignored. When I posted that list the first time (post #124 of “It it possible for preachers to preach on evolution?”), you were even pretending to participate in the conversation.
mherman: “But they are finding out many things in the animal kingdom that are changing their evolutionary thinking….”
Such as?
I am familiar with the list that you presented Matt F, and I thank you for the offer of help, but, you know how Maz threatened to ignore Kash’s posts after Kash “deceived” Maz by reposting information within your posts within her own so the Maz would read it? Tempting as it was, I didn’t want to take this easier option and run the risk of Maz zoning out my posts in the future[smile].
I just saw Religulous. Bill Maher’s visit to Ken Ham’s museum is hilarious. It’s not the funniest part of the movie though. One thing religion is good for is laughs. Mark Twain once remarked how he couldn’t see how a person with a sense of humor could be religious. How true.
Can you guys go 3 whooooole threads without getting into the creationism vs. evolution spat?! It’s so irritating when I’m trying to read comments in the context of the topic then, BAM! Someone starts talking about “vestigial organs” or platipi (?), then it’s a downhill, 2nd grade, whizzing contest. Geez people, there’s a place for that!
John: Thankyou. I don’t particularly want to zone you out either. I just want honest and respectable debate. And I am trying to be honest and respectable (as far as is possible!!
)
Sorry Tyler, but if Ken Ham is involved then it does involve the creation/evolution debate. Maybe you can put us back on track?
tyler: “It’s so irritating when I’m trying to read comments in the context of the topic then, BAM! Someone starts talking about “vestigial organs” or platipi (?), then it’s a downhill, 2nd grade, whizzing contest. Geez people, there’s a place for that!”
Yup. The Internet.
No, seriously, tyler, welcome. Unfortunately, Ken Ham has made evolution and creationism a rather important topic for himself, so the topic is almost guaranteed to come up. If you want to address the topic at hand, why not post something, and see if someone responds?