Is OMG blasphemy?
Posted by truthtalklive on 5 January, 2009
Stu is back and he is opening up the phone lines today at 5P (EST) to ask you this question! When your teenager is using their cell phones to text and they send the phrase “OMG” A.K.A O my “BEEP.” We will discuss that today you can get in the conversation by calling 1-866-34-truth (87884)! As always thanks for listening and we look foward to your comments!
If you have a picture of a McDonalds cup with “OMG” on it, or a billboard, email it along with your address and phone number to jpowell@wtru.com and we will post it on our site and send you a prize!
91 Comments on “Is OMG blasphemy?”
on Yahoo home page they have a site called OMG which is a gossip colume, Total Blasphemy!
Of course it is blasphemy.
If we are to restrict our children and fellow Christians from using God’s name in a manner that does not speak to His holiness then we certainly should demand that “In God we trust” be removed from our money. What we call money is not money, it is a debt instrument. When our money was backed by precious metals it was true money and could not be debased as it has been since the creation of the Federal Reserve.
The Fed can and will print money without limit if need be. Every dollar created (these days they do not have to print it as most is electronic) The Bible could not be more clear on this matter. “Diverse weights and Divers measures are an abomination unto the Lord.” (Prov. 20:10) Further in proverbs it states the nearly the same.
Wars have been funded with this funny money. The Vietnam War that led to thousands of Americans killed and wounded along with 5 million Vietnamese and Cambodians would never have taken place without the Fed. Without the Banking power brokers, Government would have to tax their people to fight war. How many people would volunteer to fight a war if their taxes were doubled or tripled. But through the power of Central Banking governments can do just that. History is clear on this subject. The Rothchild bankers funded both sides of the Napoleonic Wars. They also funded both sides in WW I.
Our current banking and economic system is based on a complete fraud, and will surely end with hyperinflation, just as all other systems based on fiat currency have ended. I urge all Christians to visit Dr. Gary North, a devout Christian who has written 9,000 pages on Biblical economics. He started his in depth studies in 1973 and by 1987 predicted the collapse of the financial system. You can access his materials free or you can buy his many volumes. Two other Christians that do not ignore Biblical economics are Doug Tjaden and Jason Hommell. Tjaden wrote the book, “Traditions of Men: The High Cost of Abandoning God’s Money.”
Christians are so ignorant on this subject it is unbelievable. No pastor, no Christian radio host, no one in the Christian community know anything about this issue. Over the next few years they will learn it….the hard way. The US dollar will continue its slide into oblivion, just as all fiat currencies have. It will be the greatest transfer of wealth from Creditor to Debtor; from the poor to the rich and powerful…the elderly who rely on Certificates of Deposit and US government bonds as saving will be Wiped out. America is about to experience what the Germans did during the Weimar Republic.
I will leave you with this quote from Dr. Gary North:
“There are Biblical alternatives. If we had adopted them 500 years ago, or 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago, we would not be facing the monetary crisis that we now face……Professional theologians who believe in the Bible as the infallible Word of God also have not taken the Bible’s answers seriously. they are not used to thinking of the Bible as a book that offers social, political, and ECONOMIC blueprint…..The economists and the let’s-just-preach-Jesus theologians don’t. When the crises hit – and they are going to hit – Christians need to be in positions of leadership, ready with accurate answers about how and why the crises hit, and what the Bible says needs to be done. to recover from them.”
These words along with this prediction were written during the 1970s and 80s. “The Crisis we Face:
There is a debt crisis in the making. It is international. Every Industrial nation on earth faces a crisis that could dwarf the crisis of the 1930s….The money was spent, the pyramids were built, and now the West’s banks are sitting on top of a mountain of IOUs that are never going to be paid off, at least not with money that is worth anything. That means that you and I are sitting on top of those IOUs for it was our economic futures that the idiot bankers gave away. But it is our fault, we trusted them.”
As of this minute the debt of the US is $10.5 trillion. The bailouts and fiscal stimulus the government is engaged in will push that up by at least $5 trillion in the next year or two. But the real problem lies with our unfunded liabilities which now amount to over $60 trillion. How will the US government pay these debts? Go back to our monetary system. The Federal Reserve, which is an independent bank can print money without limit. Economics 101 teaches us that the more you have of anything the less it is worth. Since 2000 the US dollar has lost 40% of its value on the Dollar Index. Since 1913, when the Fed was created the US dollar has lost 95% of its value. Compare that to the first 125 years of the republic when gold and silver were the basis of our money. The dollar actually bought twice as much product in 1913 as it did in 1794.
WAKE UP…God will not be mocked and putting his name on our fraudulent monetary system does just that.
I agree. Take “God” off our money!
Also, this is the most ridiculous topic to date.
Think about this. As the US dollar declines and price soar while the economy falters even further, what will happen to our Churches and their ministries. During the Great Depression, many churches were forced to close while others only managed to stay open with volunteers. The current economic woes we faced are the result of an economy built on sand. Two decades ago America was a creditor nation. We are now the greatest debtor nation the world has ever seen. Our economy is 77% consumption and is mostly serviced based. Our economy use to be based on production…we made things people wanted to buy. Go to any store and how many items have the tag, “Made in the USA.”
Consumption uses up wealth it does not create it. Our government is trying to revive the economy by more debt and spending. The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. The problem was debt created by easy credit and we are going to fix the problem with more debt and easy credit. This could never happen with God’s money, gold and silver.
We have accepted a monetary system created out of the mind of a man that was a self proclaimed atheist and socialist, John Maynard Keynes.
If the God’s people do not heed His word (its all in the Bible) they will be punished (Prov. 22:3). Missionaries will be forced to come home as the dollars they receive will decline in value and the church member are crushed under the collapsing dollar – inflation/hyperinflation. God does not accept ignorance as an excuse. The Bible could not be any clearer on what God considers money and sound economics.
I would say that 99% of all Christians believe in Man’s economic principles and deny God’s. It was John Maynard Keynes that proclaimed Gold as a barbaric relic of an ancient past. Funny thing about gold, it has been money and preserved wealth for over 3,000 years; while our current Fiat dollar is merely 36 years old (final transition occurred in 1971 when Nixon closed the Gold window.)
Having our wealth be in gold is similarly arbitrary.
Stanley, you may be right. However, you must also consider that our abandonment of God’s law has led to a horrific decline in American culture. There was a time when even the poorest among us had dignity. Look at pictures of people in the early part of the 20th century. No matter how poor they dressed as best they could and looked dignified. Today we emulate the dress of criminals with baggy pants, body piercings, and tatoos. The US is in decline. It reminds me of the tune played by the British at Yorktown when they surrendered to Washington, “The World Turned Upside Down.”
I remember a time when a person that did not pay their debt was considered a dead beat. It was something to be avoided at all costs. Accepting government aid was a disgrace in days gone by. Neither is the case these days. At the heart of it all lies a monetary system that promotes debt, punishes savings, and has ruined the nation.
America has blasphemed the name of God. We sing God bless America, while murdering 45 million innocent babies. These are 45 million Americans that will not be around to buy the over supply of homes. These are 45 million Americans that will not pay taxes or into Social Security.
Across the board, America has destroyed itself. It failed to heed the warning God gave Israel in Duet.8 or Duet.15.
And for those Christians that think these times are unique or that we are unique, do not forget what God told us in Ecc.1: 9-11.
Stanley, I’m not sure what you mean by your gold comment. If you are stating that gold and fiat money are the same thing, all I can say is you do not know what on earth you are talking about.
Forrest Gump says, “Stupid is as stupid does….or in this case as stupid says.” I suggest you read up on Austrian Economics. Keynesian economics will be discredited over the next 5 years.
Mike, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I just have one question. How do you operate in a monetary society while just using gold and silver. How do you buy anything?
Culture isn’t deteriorating, its changing. Its probably moving away from the values you have, but doesn’t necessarily mean its worse.
All I said was that the amount of value we put in gold is arbitrary just like how we put value in a piece of paper that says One Dollar on it. Only real difference is that there is a finite amount of gold in the world and paper burns faster.
Stanley – we disagree, Re: comment #5.
Moderator
Thats no surprise. But really…
Also, is it blasphemy if you type OMG in the title of the thread?
Yes, it is blasphemy. Like the frog in a warming pan of water doesn’t jump out. The culture has changed to the point that blasphemy is “So What?”
Did anyone bother asking God why he didn’t like us saying his name? And is it the word “God” or “Jehovah” that he doesn’t want us to say?
Re: #3
“In God we Trust” is our national motto. It has nothing to do with the reliability, or lack there of, of our currency.
THe prohibition against taking the Lord’s name in vain has to do with the ancient practice of swearing oaths. I wont get into it here. THe best thing to do is never use any term or phrase that has any reference to the Lord unless you are really talking about God. No exclamations, or “as God is my witness” (I especially dislike that one, as the speaker usually uses it while gossiping, a double sin), etc. If you take God seriously, you won’t refer to Him thoughtlessly or casually. It’s just one more way we make God small in our own perceptions.
It’s blaspheme to speak that way and it’s blaspheme if you use any other type of communication, e.g. mobile phone texts etc. It’s dishonouring to our Wonderful Creator God. He deserves our worship not used as a casual exclaimation.
Stanley, Stanley, Stanley……..alas, we must remain “moderate.”
Jon, I had to leave and only returned to this forum today. I will answer your question two ways. First with a question. How did we make it through the 19th and much of the 20th century while on a gold standard. Up until 1913, it was a pure gold standard, gold and money were synonymous. Silver was classified as the poor man’s gold but it was the basic monetary unit used by most citizens. It was difficult to buy 10 cents worth of sugar for gold. The ratio value of silver to gold was 20:1. Twenty oz. of silver = 1 oz. of gold. Gold was valued at just over $20 per oz.
When a monetary system was tied to gold, Government is restrained in its growth. The only way government can grow then is through taxation. Wars require a great deal of money which can only be raised by taxation or borrowing. If it borrows more than it can repay the government goes bankrupt and is then forced to downsize. But if governments are allowed to print the money they can fight wars, spend on worthless even distructive social programs, waste money, buy votes (pork barrel legislation has gotten out of control), and basically take away its citizen’s liberty. Gold preserves not only wealth but guarantees our liberty. It is no wonder the Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, et.al. made gold ownership illegal.
My guess is that at some point in the future, when the US dollar looses another 50% of its value and inflation is totally out of control a new currency will be introduced. That new currency will be tied to a gold certificate ratio where the gold will be priced at the market value it is trading at. So if gold is $2000 per oz. that will be the new certificate ratio; if its $6000 then that will be it. At that point the price of gold will no longer rise and the money will be stable.
Of course no one can predict the exchange rate of old for new. Will it be 10:1, 20:1, 100:1, or heaven forbid 1,000,000,000,000:1 as it was for the German people in 1924 when the old Mark was withdrawn and the Rettenmark was introduced.
Christian that believe the government will fix everything in the coming years have rejected what God says about money and the economy and accepted what man says. God’s people are trusting Man judgement and not God’s Word. Our economic/monetary system comes from an atheistic / socialist philosophy that totally rejects God’s principles.
To those Christians that say, I need not worry it is in God’s hands, are not only foolish (read Prov. 22:1, The Prudent man forseeth the evil and hideth himself, the simple pass on and are punished), but fail to realize that in doing so they are mocking God. To quote J. Edwards, they are sinners in the hands of an angry God.
I strongly urge you and all Christians to read some of the authors I have mentioned. You might also want to read what other men (while I do not know their religious beliefs, they speak God’s economics) write, such as; Peter Schiff, Dr. Marc Faber, Jim Puplava, and Peter Grandich. You can do a web search on these men. Schiff and Faber have been on CNBC numerous times and their are some interesting You Tube clips you can download. Both of these men and the others predicted the Financial Crisis, the Real estate bust, and the dollar declines years before they occurred. But the first one to that party was Dr. Gary North, who uses the Bible to promote free market capitalism. What I find interesting about Dr. North is the secular world knows him more so than Christians.
Jon #10, One final comment in response to your question. Do not be fooled by lies and propaganda promoted by the money interest. They tell you that gold cannot be used as money in a modern economy and that we need a “flexible” monetary system. This feeds into the Keynesian ideology that government and not the people should control wealth creation. A flexible monetary system is just what God hates, “Diverse weights and diverse measures are an abomination unto the Lord” Prov.20:10.
Mark my words, churches in America are going to be devastated financially over the next few years. The only hope Christians have to alter this course is to build themselves a financial ark, that gets them out of US dollar assets. Gold and in a different way is an insurance policy against inflation/ currency collapse. Just as one would not think of failing to have homeowners insurance, auto insurance, health insurance, life insurance, etc it is just as foolish not to have financial insurance. Gold, which has never been worth nothing provides that insurance. And the beauty of gold is that once you have paid the premium, you do not have to pay it again. And if you do not need it you can recoup all your premiums (money paid to acquire gold) and move on.
In the current environment an allocation of 25% of assets to gold is all one needs to be protected. Anyone care to calculate the total amount of premiums paid for homeowner’s insurance or auto insurance. I’ve been paying both for decades and have never had a claim, and I will never see the money paid to insurance companies again. I can always recoup my financial insurance premiums.
One quick note on the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve was created in a secret meeting of the wealthiest money interest on Jekyll Island, Ga. Jekyll Island was the hunting lodge of J.P.Morgan and friends. In the early part of the 20th Century the people were demanding the breaking up the big trusts and monopolies that had formed. Teddy Roosevelt was known as the Trust Buster. Included in that group were the money trusts which had attained a great deal of power. It was these men, in their meeting on Jekyll Island that drew up the legislation that created the Fed. So what is the Fed? It is an independent, not a government agency, money cartel. The money trust formed the most powerful organization in the world, which now concentrates power in the hands of a few individuals. I urge you to read the book, “The Creature from Jekyll Island.”
Also read Gary North, Jason Hommel, and Doug Tjaden. God will not protect the foolish and ignorant. He will punish the simple, especially those that have abandoned his word.
Believe me, if you educate yourself on what is taking place in America, you will come to realize that our money comes from Satan. For those of you that promote “In God We Trust” think about it. Satan is using God’s name for his own benefit. I am sure he is having a good laugh on that one.
As the American Culture continues to decline we see more and more of the society moving away from moral absolutes to cultural relevance, new age tolerance and rationalization for any and all behaviour. As a culture we have turned our backs on God (the creator God revealed in Scriptures) and formed a god of our imaginations; one who is tolerant and kind… a spiritual grandpa type who is all loving and ever ready to wink at our little transgressions and faults. We have forgotten that God is the one who manifests Himself in fire, and thunderings which the people of old stood trembling in the presence of, begging Moses to speak to God for them lest they die. We don’t know the God of the Bible anymore because we have outlawed the Bible in school and in public. We have changed “Thou shalt not..” to “It might not be the best choice if you do this..” We have changed “Thus saith the Lord God” to “Yea hath God Said.” So we speak of a god we do not know. We no longer read His word for what it is; The Word of GOD. When we do read the Bible we inperpret it in light of 21st century American culture. (there is only one interpretation of Scripture, what did God inspire the writer to say when he wrote it, the interpretation does not change with time and culture, only the applications may slightly differ, but not the meaning God inspired.) If we are not in His word and learing about God as He has revealed Himself to us, then we grow complacent and have no trouble bringing “god” down to our level. When we do this it is easy to show contempt through a perceived familarity. If we knew GOD as He IS, then we would hold everything about Him in Holy reverence. We have lost our AWE of who GOD is. If we get to know Him then we will not flippantly effuse OMG, but we will be like Thomas and fall down before Him is awe, and worship with a heart felt, soul stirring… “My LORD and my GOD!”
Easy, Mike. Stanley isn’t “rebuking” you. He’s simply pointing out that gold has no intrinsic value. It doesn’t make your crops grow like water or destroy cities like uranium. It’s pretty, but so is a tulip. Re your comments on abortion victims as lost income – sounds a little Soylent Green to me. Have you seen SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE? You might check that out before you make your next sweeping anti-abortion statement.
“As a culture we have turned our backs on God …” – Don
When were we a good, God fearing culture? Fifty, one hundred, two hundred years ago? Because in any era you wish to name we find the same complaints that you make: that we have turned our backs on God.
“We don’t know the God of the Bible anymore because we have outlawed the Bible in school and in public. ” – Don
No, we haven’t outlawed the Bible. In fact, I’ll say that we are more free today than we ever were in the USA to practice our faith.
So Don, no offense, bro, but your thumbnail is coming off very Jim Jonesish.
Barney, I callenge you to take a Bible to the next school PTA meeting and stand up and read from it. At one time in this nation the Bible was encouraged to be read and taught in schools. You say we are more free today than we ever were to pracitce our faith? That is a very generic term these days. Atheists practice their faith. What is faith? It has become a very non-offensive way to allude to religion. Faith is only as good as what it is in. Faith in faith means nothing, it is only effective when it is placed in someone or something.
Is the Bible taught in school these days? Then I submit it has been effectively outlawed. As to the culture question I submit that, yes fifty or a hundred years ago the culture was more God fearing. On the whole society held a more Biblical worldview. The outlawing of the Bible in education by the likes of John Dewey and the framers of the Humanist Manifesto has gone a long way to tearing down the Biblical worldview. When God and prayer were removed from public education they were replaced with Darwinian evolution and secular humanism. Yes, I do contend that we are further from a God fearing, Biblical worldview culture than we were even thirty years ago.
Bookert message #23, Can you name anything on earth that has been valued as gold has been in every culture for over 3000 years? Do a little research and you will find that gold has preserved wealth since man discovered it and began using it as money. Gold has very unique properties. As a precious metal, you can dump it in the ocean, leave it there of 1000 years, and pull it up unaffected. While other commodities have functioned as money, gold is fungible, accepted by all, and what is more important is scarce enough to limit its production. All the gold ever mined on planet earth will fit into a 60 meter cube, and most of it is still in existence. Unlike silver, which is also an industrial commodity, gold is not consumed. It is pure money.
When Christ walked the earth, an ounce of gold bought a Roman a complete outfit; tunic, shoes, leather belt, etc. 2000 years later an ounce of gold will buy you a fine/complete dress suit, shoes included. You see the labor it takes to produce the ounce of gold is the same as the labor it takes to make the outfit. You cannot print gold. When oil spiked over $125 pbl. gold hit $1034. Back in the 1960s, one ounce of gold bought anywhere between 7 and 10 barrels of oil. In 2008 that ratio held true. Back in the 50s and 60 gasoline was $.25 per gallon and coins were made out of silver (except the nickel and the penny). 5 Quarters (pre 64) equaled approx. 1 oz. of silver, and 5 quarter bought you 5 gallons of gas. When gasoline hit $4 per gallon silver spiked up to $22. Do the math, the same 5 silver quarters bought you the same 5 gallons of gas.
I will agree that gold does not produce anything, it is not suppose to, but neither does the dollar. Gold is NOT and never has been a productive asset. It is not meant to be consumed as one would corn, wheat, copper, lead, beef, cotton, etc. It is a store of wealth and honest money. You will note that when Abraham bought the field to bury his dead he did so with 400 weight measure of silver. He did not have to convert his silver into Cananite silver. Gold has no counter party risk and no loyalty to any regime. A one ounce .9999 gold coin from Canada, Australia, China, South Africa, or the US has the same value in all countries.
Compare that to dollars that can and will be created at will by the Federal Reserve. If Christians stay in their dilusional world they will be crushed. America now has over $100 trillion in total debt obligations. That represents 3 stacks of 100 dollar bills from here to the moon.
What does your logical mind tell you about the final outcome to this debt? What does the Bible say about this issue? Remember, ignorance is no excuse. God will not be mocked and his disobedient children have done just that….put their faith in Ben Bernanke, Pres. Bush, Pres. elect Barak Obama, Henry Paulsen, the whole financial system. Christians that do not take precautions are ignoring God’s word. This will not end well, except for those that are obedient to the Lord.
Bookert, image is everything right?
Don,
Bingo to your post # 26.
“Barney, I callenge you to take a Bible to the next school PTA meeting and stand up and read from it.” – Don
As far as I know the PTA is a private organization and as is free to read the Bible at it’s meetings as any other private organization. It sounds to me like you just want me to disturb a PTA meeting. What does being a public nuisance have to do with being free to practice our faith?
“Is the Bible taught in school these days? Then I submit it has been effectively outlawed.” – Don
That doesn’t sound right to me. Public school students can take their Bibles to school and read them. They can even read their Bibles to other students. They can even study the Bible in Religion classes. So, sorry, but you are wrong about the the Bible being outlawed.
“As to the culture question I submit that, yes fifty or a hundred years ago the culture was more God fearing. On the whole society held a more Biblical worldview. The outlawing of the Bible in education by the likes of John Dewey and the framers of the Humanist Manifesto has gone a long way to tearing down the Biblical worldview. When God and prayer were removed from public education they were replaced with Darwinian evolution and secular humanism. Yes, I do contend that we are further from a God fearing, Biblical worldview culture than we were even thirty years ago.” – Don
Fifty years ago we were nearing the end of an era of racial segregation and KKK terrorism where blacks had to defer to whites or risk being lynched. We are still not out the woods yet on that. A hundred years ago women couldn’t vote and children were forced into labor. Two Hundred years ago I might have been your slave. Surely this isn’t part of the “Biblical worldview’” that you endorse. Why then do you yearn for some by gone era just because the teachers read Bible lessons? I don’t get it.
Mike: I’m glad I’m not the only one that reads and understands Biblical economics. The books or writers you mentioned are some of my favorite. I’m very glad your out there brother.
Don #22: I think your post was absolutely right. I remember the first time I read in the OT about when Israel came to Mt. Sinai, the holiness of God was impressed upon me. This is what the Church needs to get back to. He is not just a wonderful loving and forgiving God, He is still Holy and commands our reverence and total devotion. The Church needs to get back to living by the Word too! Not by law but by His grace and the power of His Holy Spirit in our lives.
Barney: Don is on the ball. I don’t think you see whats happening today in your country.
If history has ever told us anything it is this: There is no going back.
Don post #22: Ditto’s
abc’s: We need to learn from the past. Sadly we are not,but like Mike said earlier, God is not mocked. We need to heed the warnings.
Barney, there is no such thing as a “Perfect” society or culture. We are living in a “fallen”, broken world and the very best we can do is but filthy rags before God. But I do submit that fallen, and broken as we may be a generation ago society and culture as a whole had a more Biblical Worldview regarding creation, culture and God. Not perfect by any means, if it was then there would have been no need for Jesus to have sacrificed Himself in our place for our sins. I still contend that it has been the taking God, prayer and the Bible out of school that has led to a generation not having even a rudimentary knowledge of God, His Word, and His standards for society. The Ten Commandments have been outlawed from the public square unless the fairness doctrine can be demonstrated. Meaning, unless the Ten Commandments are posted with other secular documents and are part of a historic presentation then they have to be removed from public property in order to comply with the ACLU version of “coonstitutional” seperation of Church and State, aka the Establishment Clause interpretation as a “Living” document. You said, “What does being a public nuisance have to do with being free to practice our faith?” There was a time when the public reading of God’s Word was not considered a nuisance.
Paul #31, Thank Heaven for you dear brother. I thought I and a few brothers in my church were the only Christians that saw the dangers we face. I have tried to convince Stu and other Christian radio hosts to interview Dr. North, Doug Tjaden, or Jason Hommel. So far, I get the impression they are not interested. I’ve sent them emails with Dr. North, Jason, and Doug’s websites and email addresses. No luck so far.
As for my church, I have met with my pastor and talked with deacons to explain to them what I see coming and offered some suggestions that are totally Biblical. For example the church could organize some classes to teach member that do not garden or can veggies, just how to do it. Those that raise small farm animals, can teach those that do not and have the space to do so. We can buy beef from members that raise cattle and skip the middleman. So far no interest.
Over the next five years, food prices will soar as will energy prices. The middle class will be devastated, and those on fixed incomes will suffer severe losses in buying power in light of the collapsing dollar. People having difficulty making living expenses will not be able to support the church as they have in the past. The falling dollar will force many if not most missionaries home. Rising fuel prices will make running a bus ministry almost impossible. Churches in weak financial positions now will be forced to close in light of a declining economy and out of control inflation.
Paul, it breaks my heart. Most of all, we will witness the decline of the American Empire. In that decline, Christians must emerge to lead the nation back to its former glory. But they can’t do that while remaining ignorant of all the Bible. We do a good job preaching Jesus, but the Bible, while it is a Jesus book, is relevant to all aspects of a Godly/ good life. A nation’s economic system impacts families, morality, and the welfare of its citizens.
Christians need to lead and speak out against what will soon be obvious to all. Our economic/monetary system is part of the moral decline which is the result of abandoning God’s principles. If we don’t lead someone else will and you can be sure Satan will be active in the process.
For the record, I was in public school only 2 years ago, and we were taught the bible.
Don #37: Again, great post. We see a similar thing happening here in Britain. It seems since 9/11 and 7/7 in London, there has been more tolerance and freedom given to Moslems than to Christians. Strange. A contradiction in terms.
And, there was no mention of secular humanism, even though it has infiltrated the very core of the public education system.
Stanley: They may teach the Bible in schools as they teach the Koran or any other religious writings, but they don’t teach the Truth of the Bible do they? Also they won’t allow the teaching of Creation along side evolution will they, because they say it’s not scientific but religious (but it’s not taught there either!), but the science to back up the Bible is there, they just won’t accept it.
abc #34, if history has taught us anything is that “there is nothing new under the sun.” In Ecc.1:9-11 the Lord tells us through Solomon that what has been will be and what is has been. In other words life is a cycle. The philosopher/historian Santanya repeated the same when he stated, “those that forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat the mistakes.” We all live our lives as if history began the day we were born. There are very few Americans that recall the struggles of the Great Depression. Most of those that remember those days were children at the time, with vague recollections of how difficult times were. So most Americans live their lives as if a Great Depression could never happen again. Certainly we are too sophisticated and our leaders too smart to ever allow another Great Depression. Yet God tells us different and Christians not only live in the secular world they have accepted some of its tenants. Notice that divorce and indebtedness is nearly as bad in the church as in the secular world. Dave Ramsey and before him Larry Burkett counseled Christians on elimination of debt.
Most Americans and most Christians if asked, “Which is the richest nation on earth?” would answer the US. Yet the US cannot make payments on the debt it owes. Year after year we have to borrow, mostly from other nations, in order to pay for our way of life. How many Christians know that over 1/2 of our national debt is held by foreigners with Communist China leading the pack of creditors. The Arab Oil States have also been buyers of US government bonds, especially last year. America is in debt to Muslim states, whose religion is an enemy of Christianity and Judaism.
Of all the messages posted on this topic no one has yet to suggest how America will pay off its massive debts. Next year the deficit (annual short fall) will exceed $1 trillion. Who will loan us the money? I’ll tell you who will. The Federal Reserve will monetize the debt, which means they will print limitless dollars to buy the bonds thus devaluing the currency.
I challenge everyone that reads these messages to refute what I am saying. The logic is as clear as it can be. Those that prepare will not suffer as those that do not. Think of it this way, If Noah had ignored God and not built the Ark, what would have happened. God could have still saved him, but do you think God would have rewarded his disobedience by save Noah and his family? God’s Word regarding these issues are clear. Dr. Gary North has spent 30 years+ writing on Biblical economics. As far as Christians are concerned he is a voice crying in the wilderness. He is like the prophets of old, rejected by the people of their day.
Mike, If we as a nation are not living holy before the Living Creator God of the Universe why would He bless us? As a nation we are guilty of idolatry (including the love of money, entertaiment and ease) adultery, fornication, lying, murder (including a conservative estimate of 45 million innocent children aborted… innocent blood for which God will not forgive), blasphemy, dishonoring to our parents, coveteousness, theft…(did I miss any of God’s moral law?) Unlike persons who are appointed once to die and afterward face judgment, nations are judged by God in the present. Economics and even our nation is incidential to our holiness as a people before God. God said “be ye holy for I am holy.” Health wealth and prosperity are not guaranteed in this life for the Christian, our real treasures are laid up in heaven. God wants our obedience above sacrafice. We need to be careful we do not become like Saul and have God come to us and ask, ‘then what is this bleeting I hear.”
With all this talk on finance and the economy, I am wondering what it has to do with the question in hand…….blaspheme of God.
This message is for Stu and all the staff at WTRU. You have the microphone and the airwaves that can spread the message, or at least begin the dialog regarding Biblical economics. I’ve sent you Dr. North’s email address and web site as well as Jason Hommel’s and Doug Tjade’s. I am sure one of these three men would love to come on your program.
If I am right in my projections of the future, churches and all ministries will suffer. The sad part of this suffering is that it is unnecessary. What a testimony to the veracity of God’s word if God’s people come through the crisis unscathed because we were obedient to our Lord.
The ball is squarely in your court. I have done all I can to inform and promote Biblical Economics, but most of my words have fallen on deaf ears….mostly Christian deaf ears. Secular people are more open and quite a few are protecting themselves with God’s money. I find most Christians believing that God would protect them and that He is in control. It is my point exactly. It is because God is in control that we should fear His wrath.
The amount of debt incurred by more than a few Christians, tells me that we have substituted our toys for God. The Bass Boat, fancy vacation, numerous dinners out each week, piles of clothes stuffed in closets, fancy cars and fancy homes have given us the pleasure that we should get from our relationship with the Lord. All this stuff has become our golden calf, our idol, and we ignored God’s warning regarding debt to get those idols.
Don: ”Economics and even our nation is incidential to our holiness as a people before God.”
Amen. It does seem to me that Americans (including many within the Church) are more concerned about the economy of their country than moral issues.
Maz, go back to my original statement. The great blaspheme of God’s name is in our currency. It is a fraud and more closely tied to Satan and yet it carries the message, “In God We Trust.” First of all that statement, while true at one time, is no longer true. Go back and read my first message. While I don’t promote this thought, I would rather see God’s name on a bottle of wine or beer than on our currency. At least with booze you know what you are getting. When you accept the dollars you actually do not know what you have. It is not money, it is a debt instrument. It is created from debt, yet most people think it is actually money…IT ISN’T. The government forces us to use it as money but it does not meet the definition of MONEY.
By the way, we were not talking of finance. The issue was a wicked un-Godly financial system.
If some of the Christian leaders and ‘famous’ preachers on Christian TV today lived in the time of the early Church, they would have had to sell their multi-million dollar mansions, their big shiny bikes and their silver and gold to sell and share amongst their poorer brothers and sisters. Or would they have to turn away sadly like the rich man who encountered Christ in his life one day?
I thought they had taken that phrase off the currency. No doubt they soon will. Also if you know anything about Barry Smith and what he shows is on your dollar bills then there is more blaspheme on there than just ”In God We Trust”.
Don, sorry, but I don’t subscribe to your politics.That’s what you really want to discuss.
Tryth Talk: It is a shame that Barry is no longer with us, he would have been a great person to have on your show….or maybe in the past you have.
OOps!!
Truth not Tryth…….I’m losing a lot of letters on my keyboard!!!
Mike: Do you also agree with these statements of Dr. North:
“So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political, and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God.” Gary North, “The Intellectual Schizophrenia of the New Christian Right”, The Failure of the American Baptist Culture “In winning a nation to the gospel, the sword as well as the pen must be used” (Gary North, Christian Reconstructionism, p. 198).
“The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church’s public marks of the covenant – baptism and holy communion – must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel. The way to achieve this political goal is through successful mass evangelism followed by constitutional revision.” Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism I find these comments anti-American and unChrist-like. I am more afraid of Gary North than of the Federal Reserve as far as someone trying to control my life and freedom, financial or otherwise
@Maz 42
Of course they don’t teach the bible as literal truth. School is intended for learning, not indoctrination, silly.
Kash, I do not agree with those statement and am not familiar with the context in which they were made. I have only read Dr. North’s comments regarding Biblical Economics. Gary North is human and humans make rediculous statements more often than not. Do you agree that rapist should be castrated? This was a comment made by none other than Billy Graham.
For whatever it is worth, even if Gary North believes what you quoted it does not detract from his work on Biblical Economics. Besides my sole source is not Dr. North. I also gave you Doug Tjaden and Jason Hommel as well as the “more secular” writers on the subject.
If you read no other book, read “The Creature from Jekyll Island” It is a real eye opener. If you want a very easy and fascinating book on how America got to where it is and where it is going, read Peter Schiff, “Crash Proof: How to Profit from the Coming Economic Collapse.” Peter Grandich and Jim Puplava give evidence of the belief in the God of the Bible and these men have made predictions regarding the coming economic storms for years. It is all common sense. If printing money makes a nation wealthy then Zimbabwe and Cuba would have to be the richest nations on earth.
Now back to your comment. You discredit Gary North but you have yet to refute anything I have written. Do you really believe that more government debt and more spending by both the government and the people will fix the economy?
Anon: So why do they teach evolution? That is also indoctrination on a BIG scale! And we could add other humanistic phylosophies that are pushed……er…taught in schools today.
Ofcourse all this trouble with money will eventually bring in the need for a cashless society………..another I opening truth taught by Barry Smith……also connected with the Mark of the Beast at the end time (spoken of in Revelation). It’s coming……but thankfully so is Jesus…..very soon!
correction ”….another EYE opening truth….”
Don, do not mistake my points regarding gold and silver as being a lover of money. We are also to be good stewards of all that God has given us. It all belongs to Him anyway. In being good stewards we must protect our families and keep evil at bay. Our monetary system is evil. To trust in it would be to trust evil. We are not to love anything above God and that includes gold and silver. Yet God gave us gold and silver to be money. Money as an accepted medium of exchange is part of any modern economy. The barter system is not practical. So God gave us gold and silver as money and as long as we maintained that system, America prospered as no other nation has ever prospered on earth. The advent of Fiat money has been our undoing. The Fed was as much the cause of the Stock Market Crash of 1929 and the government’s action extended the Great Depression for over a decade. People suffered needlessly and they will suffer again, even more in the Greater Depression, unless they get in tune with God’s Word.
Finally, in the past few years we have not LOVED MONEY we have loved STUFF. What do you think the massive debt has been about. A lover of money hoards it, while the lover of STUFF hoards stuff. Been to any yard sales lately? Been to the malls? What do you see? People hoarding money or people going into debt to hoard stuff?
Shouldn’t we welcome or even encourage the ushering in of the “end times” since that means the coming of Jesus is even closer? Why would we try to stop a one world government from occuring since that is “one of the things” that has to happen for Jesus to return?
Maz, please refrain from Rapture theology. It borders on blasphemy. Jesus told us that only the Father knows and we are to occupy until He comes. Christians that have been predicting the Rapture by referring to Newspaper Headlines have done the God’s Word and the Church a great disservice. It has given ammo to the atheist that mock Christianity. Before I accepted the Lord, I ridiculed Christians that predicted end times. My favorite target was referencing “The Late Great Planet Earth” which stated Christ would return in 1988.
Christ clearly told His disciples not to guess his return. That was not a polite request it was an order. Let’s be obedient.
Scott: What God has written in His Word stands, we can’t change it, we can’t stop it, but we can prepare. We need to see the signs of the times. Jesus gave enough of them in Matthew 24, yet so many Christians are blind to what is happening in the world today, they don’t see the relevance of Israel coming back to their land, that they became a nation again after 2500 years on May 14th 1948. It was a miracle. Gods miracle. It is all in His Word……that is where we need to get back to if we are not going to be caught out!!
Mike: ”Maz, please refrain from Rapture theology. It borders on blasphemy.”
Excuse me? It is a truth written in the scriptures. I never gave any dates did I? We don’t know ‘the day or the hour’, but we can know the seasons because Jesus told us we could.
”It has given ammo to the atheist that mock Christianity.”
They have enough ammo, but why are you shooting at me? Jesus is coming soon….that is a truth!
Mike,
We agree on rapture theology!!! Anyway, I am sorry that I picked on Dr. North. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what will fix the economy. I suspect that the Federal Reserve is like any large institution and has its plusses and minuses, and a huge potential for abuse. Debt seems like a bad idea 99% of the time, with the possible exception of buying a reasonably sized house that is within your means, and student loans to an affordable college. I personally agree with Michele Singeltary (sp?) when it comes to personal finance management, which is all I can speak to, not being much of a financial wiz. I have learned what I have to to keep my small business afloat.
Maz, It is not the second coming that Mike is referring to, but a dispensationalism pre-trib rapture left behind scenario that is not Biblical.
Barney, “Don, sorry, but I don’t subscribe to your politics.That’s what you really want to discuss.” Politics??? I believe I have been discussing the differences in worldviews, the secular worldview vs a Biblical Worldview.
Mike, you are majoring on the minors. Yes, the monitary system in America is corrupt, amen. But render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s… God allows Nations to arise and rule and we are to give honor to the higher powers for they are ordained by God. The monitary system that a nation authorizes is part and parcel of that nation’s authority over it’s citizens. As Christians we are to “Honor the king” and all his authority until his decrees are in direct conflict with God’s commands. Our probem as Americans is that we do not recognize God first and foremost. If we are His people and we claim to be called by His name, and we do not humble ourselves, pray and seek God’s face then how can we be blessed spiritually, physically, economically or any other way? It is not about a motto on a piece of paper (even if the paper has been authorized by the government to act as it’s legal tender and currency), it is about our hearts toward our Lord and Saviour! So to get back to the question at hand, yes we are a nation of blasphemers, yes we take the Lord’s name in vain in many ways and OMG is one of the most profilic ways we drag the name of the most Holy through the dirt and filth of this world. It is even more abominable for a Christian to do so. The world does not claim to love the Lord God… we do.
Maz, when someone says soon, one anticipates an event that is right around the corner. If I tell you that I will visit you one day soon and don’t come by for 3 years, you would consider me a liar. Actually most people would lose faith in the visit after a few weeks.
I believe in Jesus’ return and I will obey his order not to read into current events to try to guess the time or the season. Those that claim the creation of the Nation State of Israel as a precursor, as far as I know there is no precursor. He can come at any time; in the blink of an eye. Nothing needs to happen first.
Of course the whole debate has led to a great deal of confusion…post-trib, pre-trib, amil, post-mill, pre-mill, and then of course the prederist (sp?) and partial prederist.
Maybe this is why our Lord told us not to guess. He knew we would get it all confused, which we have and unfortunately the issue has led to divisions in the church. Some have adopted the rapture as one of the 5 truths of God’s church, which it is NOT. The litmus test of a true Christian is based on belief: In the trinity, Jesus born of a virgin, Salvation by faith in Christ alone, Jesus death on the cross for our sins, and His Resurrection 3 days later. That’s it. Nothing about the Rapture.
my last post should say “American Christians”. I know many claim to be Christians just like I used to(before God saved me, the chiefest of sinners), but as a nation we are not God’s chosen people.
Sorry folks but its 23.04 here…….will be back tomorrow.
Kash #65, I’m glad to find a Christian that is not rabid about the Rapture. I try to live my life as if Jesus was standing right their next to me. Actually, I have felt His presence in me since I accepted him 12 years ago. Since then I have had a hunger for His Word, that has led me to not just read the Bible but study it. I guess I would have made a good Berean.
Keeping a business going is always difficult and will get more difficult over the next few years. The consumer based / service based economy is not sustainable. Back when America produced most of what the world consumed, we deserved to be the world’s greatest consumer. But that changed in the 80s and 90s. We shipped our factories overseas and replaced them with shopping centers. The hard work of production was exchanged for the easy life of consumption. When you do not produce and merely consume you can only do so with debt. A nation is like a person. A person that does not work should not eat. That is Biblical. But with easy money, made possible by low interest rates, debt can allow one to continue to consume even if he does not work. Thus was born the modern US economy where debt did not matter.
The Fed flooded the system with money under Alan Greenspan and continues to do so under Ben Bernanke. Each dollar the Fed creates brings an addition 9 dollars into the system once the banks get a hold of it. Here is how it works:
Let’s say you work for the post office. The government has to pay you for your service but does not have the money. It goes to the Federal Reserve and exchanges a $1000 bond for 1000 newly created dollars. You then get your paycheck and deposit it in your local bank. Your bank now has $1000 on deposit.
Your neighbor comes in and want to buy a car. He needs $9000 but the bank only has the $1000 you deposited. But not to worry, they can lend your neighbor $9000 due to the law that allows them. This is called the Fractional Reserve system. The bank will now collect interest on the $9000 debt. But where did the money come from? The first $1000 was created out of thin air by the Fed. The US government (we tax payers) will have to pay interest on that debt to the Fed.(that interest is paid by taxes which we work to pay. It is our sweat.) You had to work for the $1000 created out of thin air but the bank where you deposited the money can use it along with $8000 that did not exist to loan to your neighbor to buy the car. Your neighbor has to work to pay the interest (usery) on the debt that the bank created out of thin air and did not work for.
Get the picture. You need to read what our founding fathers had to say about a central bank. Jefferson said that the day we trusted the banking interest for our economic well being would be the day the American people would find themselves without homes in the land their fathers conquered.
Ask any banker if my very simple example is not the truth. The current system is the greatest scam ever devised by man and when Nixon closed the gold window in 1971 all ties to gold were severed. FDR started the ball rolling in 1933 when he made ownership of gold or trading in gold punishable by a $10,000 fine and 5 years in prison. He confiscated the gold at $20 per oz. then once he had the yellow metal he revalued it at $35. How’s that for highway robbery. The government made a 75% profit.
Our fiat system has enslaved the American people. Through the process of inflation, we lose our purchasing power, pay higher taxes as we move into higher tax brackets and sales taxes and real estate taxes rise with prices. In the 1950s, one man could support a whole family on his paycheck. The average tax load (all taxes) for the average family was 20%. Today the average tax load (all taxes) exceeds 50%. That means that we must work 1/2 the year as slaves. High real estate taxes deny you home ownership. If your annual real estate tax is $1200 then you are basically renting your home from the government at $100 per month. You don’t pay and you are evicted.
As for Student Loans, they have robbed our young people of an affordable education. The beneficiaries of student loans have been the Universities. I received a 4 year degree from the University of Fla. and a Masters from UNC-Chapel Hill without loans. My parents were poor and could not afford to pay for my education. I worked my way through school and graduated debt free. School was affordable, but since loans were made available the price of an education has increased faster than the rate of inflation. I am not impressed with the quality of the education our young people are receiving these days. It is more like indoctrination against God, America, and morality. Some of the courses offered border on the obscene.
I have stated my case. The line of thinking is logical and what is more important follows Biblical principles. It amazes me that I use the Bible as the Word of Truth more so than Christians that have been part of the Body of Christ all their lives. Whatever I do, whatever I believe, whatever I say must agree with God’s Word for it is pure truth. I trust the Lord not man.
It’s good to hear from you again Don[smile].
I am happy to see that your posts still contain the same….”flavor”, even if I do happen to completely disagree with almost everything you have said.
Mike, Thank you for the attempt to explain banking. I do understand a bit about it, and it seems to me that as long as the neighbor keeps paying on his loan everything will be ok, and I will in fact make money myself on my $1000 thanks to interest. It seems to me it only falls apart when certain people get greedy and try to take too much of the interest as their own personal income, and/or the neighbor defaults on his loan. I mean, there has to be some sort of standardized currency, don’t you agree? And reasonable rates of interest are just part of banking, right? And isn’t the Federal Reserve the third attempt at a national bank, and aren’t we getting better at it with each attempt, even though we have these periodic episodes where greed and changing times lead to a panic/disaster that forces us to make major or minor adjustments to the banking system? I guess my point is it just doesn’t seem like we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and declare everything about modern American finance evil. We can’t exactly function as a barter economy, as much as some of us enjoy doing locally. Also, as corrupt as our government and finance sector might be, we sure are doing a lot better than most nations. THe worst of our offenders do seem to get caught eventually and tossed out.
Also, of course Jefferson was opposed to a central bank, because Hamilton was for it. And Jefferson hated Hamilton. Politics haven’t changed much in 200 years, eh?
Mike,
Would love to have Dr North on the show, but would rather interview you. You’re very well read on these subjects. Let’s do a program on this in the next 2 weeks. Just email tom your availability:
tbooth@wtru.com also email 3 or 4 key axioms for debate/discussion..
thanks, stu
Mike, lots of great information. You seem very knowledgable about the banking subject. At the end of the day I have few questions. Is there a solution that can be implemented without the sanction of the IMF, the FED or Congress? I mean we can talk about the evils all day long and point out the flaws but in the end the only thing that matters is who is in control… God or man. Do you agree that Government is ordained by God? Are we then not subject to the laws and authority of that Government so long as it does not constrain us to act in a manner contrary to God’s authority? If the Government authorized widgets as its form of legal tender then are we not obliged to accept payment and make transactions using widgets? When you buy groceries each week what do you use to pay for them?
Here at the end of the day we live in a broken, fallen, sin-sick world. Economics and politics hold no solutions for our circumstances and the ills of our society. The world order we live in can only produce temporary band-aids and stop-gap measures at best. What is your answer to the lost soul who might perchance to read all these posts and now here at day’s end asks, “So… what? What is the answer?” His worldview tells him to get as much as he can right now and satisfy all his wants and desires right now using whatever means are available to him because the one who dies with the most toys wins….. I am not nit-picking I want to know. I truly want to know the answer to “So… What?”
We have seen the mess, the total fiasco that has come about by the Moral Majority and the the Evangelical’s foray into the body-politic. Are we now going to blaze a similar trail into “Christian Economics?” Is our generation to be the one which removes the last vestiges of Christianity (albeit imperfect we admit) from the public’s view and daily use? We understand that all the kingdoms of the world are currently under the rule of Satan (otherwise he could not have offered them to Jesus if only Jesus would worship him). We know evil is all around us… but these flesh and blood institutions are not where we are commanded to direct our efforts. Are we not commanded, “And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” I’m not trying to be difficult but I can’t see the point if there is not a solution. The only solution I can find is in the person of Jesus Christ, just as Paul found, in Philippians 4:11-13, “Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me,” and from there to the end of the chapter.
Mike, you have a masters from UNC and you reduced yourself to personal attacks as low as “Stupid is as stupid does… or in this case as stupid says?”
I find this hilarious.
How old are you?
Also, I’ll bite.
How do we get away from a dollar based system, to a gold based system?
I don’t think you could absolutely destroying my country.
I think I accidentally deleted the word “without” from “I don’t think you could WITHOUT absolutely destroying my country.”
Otherwise, my sentence doesn’t make much sense, I mean, less than normal.
Kash #66: That is your interpretation. We must beg to differ, though I am not keen on the Left Behind series. But Jesus is coming for His Bride soon, we need to be ready.
Don #67: Preach it brother! You recognise what is important in our lives as Christians.
Mike #68: I am not ‘guessing’ the times or the seasons. Jesus told us to DISCERN the times and the seasons and that is what I am doing. I watch world events, and many are fulfilling prophecy. The Lord has told us to be ready, and ready I am going to be.
And I am not arguing about what the word ‘soon’ could mean………but it is sooner than it was 2000 years ago! And I agree, nothing needs to happen before the catching away of the Church, but many things must happen before Christ returns to the earth again.
And there is too much milling and tribbing in the Church, I hate the discord it causes, but I stand by what I see in the Bible and that is what I believe. One day we shall know who’s right and wrong, but for now we must all be sure of that Blessed Hope and the wonderful appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. Praise His Holy Name! I can’t wait!
And yes, we must believe in the basics of salvation, but there is more in the Bible to know and believe or else why did God put it in there for us? So what is your interpretation of 1 Thess: 4 v 13-18?
Mike: #71: ”Kash #65. I’m glad to find a Christian that is not rabid about the Rapture”.
Rabid? Goodness, why the hostility? This is what I hate. I am eagerly looking for the Lord from Heaven, what is wrong with that?
Revelation 22 v 20: ”…..Surely, I come quickly. Amen. EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS!” And that is my cry also!
I too live with the Lord constantly with me, and I too have felt His presence, and I hope that I read and study the Bible as a true Berean would. I certainly search out the scriptures, I had to earlier in my Christian walk when I had a ministry to reach Jehovahs Witnesses for Christ. I studied their theology too, so I had to know what I was talking about.
”Whatever I do, whatever I believe, whatever I say must agree with God’s Word for it is pure truth. I trust the Lord not man.”
Which is what I do too. I trust in Him completely to lead me into all truth. I havn’t got there yet and I don’t think you have, but with a pure and willing heart we shall hear His voice and follow.
Mike, Don is so right, and you are so involved in the economics and forget that Jesus promised us all these ‘things’. Matthew 6 v 25 -34 speaks of these ‘things’ people seem so anxious about…….but we are not to be…………”For after all these things do the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things. But seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you. Be not anxious, therefore, about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for the things of itself. Sufficient to the day is it’s own evil.” In other words we are to take each day as it comes and not worry about tomorrow. God will take care of us whatever happens to the economy.
Maz: I don’t think Mike is being anxious, he is just sounding an alarm . He is passonate about biblical principals in economics. Just like you are with the evolution/creation topic, he has a good understanding of the subject matter. We should implement Gods ways and principals in everything we do, and how we think. It all matters, I encourage his passion that God put in his heart and yours as well.
Paul: I have a passion about the Word, which includes Genesis-Revelation. I don’t think Mike would encourage my passion in excatological things though. I think he is majoring too much on economy when Jesus wants us to concentrate on Him and His ability to provide for us. I believe the main principal about economics is giving God His due and then giving to those in need. ”Give and it shall be given to you, good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you measure it shall be measured to you again.” To be honest I get fedup with hearing about money, money, money from American Christains, and particularly preachers that are always asking for it. If we truly trust in God, He will supply our every need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. I live that way.
The newspaper and news sources in general can be depressing reading these days. No matter who wins election’s, America and the world are in for uncertain times. Instead of ruminating over the negative possibilities, Christians should see what will come as opportunities. It’s in uncertain times that Jesus entered the world. Israel was a captive nation with no political power. The church was birthed when Rome controlled nations from Great Britain and the northern coast of Africa and everything in between. The newly formed Church went about doing its job to bring the gospel to the nations. In time, Rome collapsed under its own fragile moral center, and the Church expanded, setting the moral agenda for the then-known world that is still impacting today’s world.
While things look grave for our nation, there is not much comparison to what these early Christians faced. We still have the freedom to make changes at all levels of society. We only lack the will. There are millions of Christians who have taken a position similar to that of popular Bible teacher John MacArthur who states that “‘Reclaiming’ the culture is a pointless, futile exercise.” He comes to this conclusion based on an eschatological reading of 2 Timothy 3. He quotes selective verses (vv. 1-5, and 13) in an effort to support his belief that Paul is describing the inevitable triumph of evil prior to a “rapture” of the Church that brings on an inevitable global Great Tribulation when millions of Jews are slaughtered in their homeland and billions more are killed around the world.
These verses, cut off from their immediate context, could lead almost anyone to come to the same conclusion as MacArthur does at any point in history. A study of the entire passage, however, shows that Paul’s message is not about the inevitability of evil over good. Paul compares the supposed progress of the ungodly in Timothy’s day, the “last days” of Old Covenant Judaism (Heb. 1:1-2; 1 Cor. 10:11), to the overthrow of Jannes and Jambres in Moses’ day (Ex. 7:11): “But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, as also that of those two [Jannes and Jambres] came to be” (2 Tim. 3:9).
Paul is forthright in encouraging Timothy that those who exhibit the deeds of wickedness will suffer the same fate as the two Egyptian sorcerers who served in Pharaoh’s court, the most powerful kingdom of the day. Paul backs up his claim of optimism not with a treatise on end-time speculation but from an incident from the Old Testament that shows that God’s people, through His providential care, triumph over wickedness:
Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. For each one threw down his staff and they turned into serpents. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs (Ex. 7:11-12).
While it is true there is an attempt by the ungodly to dominate culture, and some are successful for a season, the fact is, that over time “they will not make further progress”; their fling with ungodliness is only temporary (cf. Rom. 1:18-32). Christians can be optimistic even if the actions of the ungodly increase in their own day. If Christians remain faithful in preaching the gospel and applying a biblical worldview to every area of life, the world can be changed. History and God’s providential care are on our side.
Paul, however, does not allow Christians to remain passive as the ungodly self?destruct. Timothy has followed Paul’s “teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, persecutions, [and] sufferings” (2 Tim. 3:10-11), and he calls on us to do the same. While the ungodly expend capital from their contrary and corrupted worldview on present?oriented living, the Christian is to develop future?oriented spiritual capital to replace the bankrupt culture of secularism, humanism, materialism, relativism, and hedonism.
Notice that the characteristics of the ungodly are all self?directed and short?lived, summarized by the phrase “lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” (2 Tim. 3:4). Sin is pleasurable for a time: “He who loves pleasure will become a poor man; he who loves wine and oil will not become rich” (Prov. 21:17). The love of pleasure is no investment in the future.
The characteristics of the godly are future directed, foregoing the lure of present pleasures for the benefit of future productivity. Teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love and perseverance take time and energy from the present but result in future rewards. Moreover, even persecutions and sufferings should not deter future?oriented Christians because “out of them all the Lord” delivers us (2 Tim. 3:11).
The ungodly are involved in a game of self-deception, so that even they are “being deceived” when they think their worldview will ultimately prevail. We also must remember the previous words of Paul: “But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all.” While the ungodly burn themselves out on present-oriented living, the faithful steadily influence their world: “You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of” (2 Tim. 3:14). In time, faithfulness will be rewarded: “And let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we shall reap if we do not grow weary” (Gal. 6:9).
Paul does not deny “persecutions” and “sufferings” (2 Tim. 3:11). In fact, his words echo those of Jesus: “In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world” (John 16:33). Even so, Paul tells Timothy, “out of them all the Lord delivered me!” (2 Tim. 3:11). If God delivered Paul and the Christian church of the first century from Jewish persecution and Roman tyranny, what leads us to believe that God cannot and will not do the same today? A belief in the inevitability of certain prophetic events, the belief that we are the terminal generation, can lead to a spirit of malaise, indifference, and despair.
It’s been said repeatedly that ideas have consequences. What a person believes about the future impacts how he lives in the present and plans for the days and years to come. We often look at present circumstances and see them as the standard to evaluate where we are in the world. Of course, we’re not the first generation to do this (Num. 13-14), but it seems that we’re the first to make it an article of faith.
Josef Tson, a Christian leader from Romania, was challenged in 1977 by a friend to help set up an organization that would expose communism. Pastor Tson’s response was startling given the oppressive regime that dominated his country. He assured his Christian friend that “Communism is an experiment that has failed. It wasn’t able to fulfill any of its promises and nobody believes in it any more. Because of this, it will one day collapse on its own. Now, why should I fight something that is finished? I believe that our task is a different one. When communism collapses, somebody has to be there to rebuild society! I believe our job as Christian teachers is to train leaders so that they will be ready and capable to rebuild our society on a Christian basis.” Who could conceive of such a future scenario given the seemingly indestructible nature and advance of Communism and the claimed inevitability of apocalyptic doom?
Pastor Tson’s friend challenged him by claiming that “Communism will triumph all over the world, because that is the movement of the Antichrist. And when the communists take over in the United States, they will then kill all the Christians. We have only one job to do: to alert the world and make ready to die.” Eventually, both men were forced to leave Romania. Pastor Tson started a training program for Christian leaders who remained in Romania. His friend, as Pastor Tson tells the story, “has not done anything for Romania. He simply waited for the final triumph of communism and the annihilation of Christianity.” Contrary to his friend’s expectations, neither event came to pass.
The Communist regime in Romania fell, and President Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife were captured, tried, and found guilty of genocide. They were executed on December 25, 1989. The remaining Communists were swept from power in later elections. Pastor Tson trained more than a thousand people all over Romania. Today, these people are the leaders in churches in evangelical denominations and in key Christian ministries. Who could have imagined such a development? Certainly not prophecy writers who had assured us that Communism was the inevitable end-time movement to usher in the antichrist. Pastor Tson understood that eschatology matters: “You see, the way you look to the future determines your planning and your actions. It is the way you understand the times that determines what you are going to do.”
Paul, I really enjoyed that last post.
Well I’m not a dispensationalist,I just wanted to bring some perspective.
stu, I called Tom Booth and left a message. I tried to send an email through you link but somehow it won’t go through. I will call Tom tomorrow morning. I have Doug Tjaden’s phone number. He wrote the book, Traditions of Men: The High Cost of Abandoning God’s Money.
I’m no expert on economics or the Bible. No degrees in either; however, I do read a great deal. I guess you would say I am self taught.
Just glanced at the comments and saw no mention of those ghastly billboards that put words in God’s mouth. You know the ones — “Don’t make me come down there. God” or “What part of Thou Shalt Not do you not understand? God.” I’m wondering why these billboards aren’t blasphemous. They make God into a real smart aleck you know, a real grouch, short on patience and originality. Surely the Creator of the Universe is above all else, original.