Since Mormons believe in 2 types of salvation (although Christians, only 1), general and individual, let’s ask it this way:

For GENERAL salvation – do you receive that instantly by grace through faith alone, or over a period of time, by some other means, or what?

For INDIVIDUAL salvation – do you receive that instantly by grace through faith alone, or over a period of time, by some other means, or what?

“Oh, there is plenty of hell all right: Hell in the spirit world is between death and the resurrection. It is where those who were disobedient in this mortal life and those who rejected Christ when He was offered them will abide until the last resurrection, at which time they will go on to telestial glory where the Father and Son do not live.(That would be hell for me.) Nor can they have their own eternal families in this kingdom–which would also be hell for me.” (Amanda)

Doesn’t matter what hell is “to you”, Amanda, it matters only what the Bible says it is. It is a real place, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, where those who did not accept Christ while physically living will go to after Judgment, being no chance for them to change their destination after they are dead (this according to Scripture). They don’t go to some lower part of heaven (where God isn’t, as you say – which is NOT in the Bible), and hell has nothing to do with “eternal families” – that’s a Mormon thing, not a Bible idea.

“Hell, thus defined, will have an end when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their own sins (talk about excruciating) and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection.” (Amanda)

Not sure where you derive this idea from, but it certainly is not found in Scripture anywhere. Hell doesn’t end.

“Statements about an everlasting hell we interpret in context of what was revealed in D&C 19:4-12, which defines eternal and endless punishment.” (Amanda)

Well heck, there’s your problem, you’re interpreting it in light of the D&C, rather than the Bible!

“Secondly, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place (as I mentioned) spoken of as a lake of fire–a figure of eternal anguish, also known as Outer Darkness. These receive no glory whatsoever. They continue in spiritual darkness forever. (Most of this from the LDS Bible Dictionary)” (Amanda)

Yes, they will be there, but so will ALL those who did not accept Christ as savior while living, unfortunately. And that is the Christ as shown to us in the Bible – NOT the Christ of Mormonism or other religions.

“By the final resurrection, “…As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.” (Romans 14:11-12)” (Amanda)

Yes, but that doesn’t mean everyone will be saved. They will acknowledge that Christ is Lord, and that the Bible is true, but at that point, it will be too late for them. Remember the story of Abraham’s bosom, and the “great gulf fixed”? There’s nothing we can do for anyone after they have died. Nothing.

Think of it this way, Brad, for this is what it really means:

“After all we can do (After all of our feeble even if diligent efforts), it is still by grace (of Jesus Christ) that we are saved.” The wording you gave was written by ancient American prophets and is found in the Book of Mormon, but when read in context of today’s language and of the whole body of the Book of Mormon, as you say is important to do, Brad, this is clearly what it means.

“It must be a nice alternative in Mormonism for there to be virtually no hell, since few go there, right?”

Oh, there is plenty of hell all right: Hell in the spirit world is between death and the resurrection. It is where those who were disobedient in this mortal life and those who rejected Christ when He was offered them will abide until the last resurrection, at which time they will go on to telestial glory where the Father and Son do not live.(That would be hell for me.) Nor can they have their own eternal families in this kingdom–which would also be hell for me. In this sense the BOM speaks of spiritual death as hell. Hell, thus defined, will have an end when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their own sins (talk about excruciating) and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection.

Statements about an everlasting hell we interpret in context of what was revealed in D&C 19:4-12, which defines eternal and endless punishment. Secondly, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place (as I mentioned) spoken of as a lake of fire–a figure of eternal anguish, also known as Outer Darkness. These receive no glory whatsoever. They continue in spiritual darkness forever. (Most of this from the LDS Bible Dictionary)

By the final resurrection, “…As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.” (Romans 14:11-12)

If your buzz phrase is “saved by grace, AFTER all we can do”, then tell me what the “AFTER all we can do” refers to? Because that phrase, attributed to the LDS church, says that we’re not saved until AFTER we do something, which means that we first have to work towards our salvation, and will only receive it at a later date. Is that what you believe, Amanda? Because it’s what your official church position entails.

There is nothing here to argue with, Brad. It’s true! But if your faith does not translate into faithfulness through works, it wasn’t really faith, was it? Merely an intellectual belief. And it really won’t lead you where you want to go. And why are we repeating things to each other? If I repeat something you thought you’d “cleared up for me,” it’s because I wasn’t persuaded based upon either or both scripture and personal revelation.

There is more than one reason to obey. If you don’t agree with the scriptures I’ve given you, just say so and enumerate which ones. I personally don’t do anything to “show that I’ve already been saved,” God knows I have, and I don’t care if others “think” I’ve been saved; HOWEVER, others may see the path upon which God has led me and desire to learn more about God themselves. Gratitude is also a good reason to obey. Reality check? The scriptures I have already given you. (You don’t like to talk about those sheep and goats, I’ve noticed.)

Many a man has been “converted” and been saved from his sins up to that point, shown good works, divorced himself from the true and living vine, and then withered away. Take Judas. Jesus washed his feet as an act of love knowing that he would betray Him, but Judas had his agency to the end. Action–consequence. Without ongoing repentance and “following,” your salvation is a short-lived thing. It’s enduring to the end that counts.(Matt.10:22, John 6:27, James 1:12, James 5:11)

As we’ve shown before, since I believe that there are 3 kingdoms of souls in a “saved” condition after judgment day, our concpets are bound to be different, and if there weren’t additional blessings and knowledge that comes from being a Mormon, I would still be a Presbyterian! As with the scriptures from 1 Peter on judgment for the dead, you can easily overlook or misunderstand things found in the Bible. This again, shows a need for modern revelation. None of our differences matter if Joseph Smith was not a living prophet, and if I were in doubt of the truthfulness of his calling, I might agree with you on more although not all points, Brad.

By the way, I’ll stop wearing my undergarments when you do!

My “magic underwear” is simply a modest and comforting sign of the covenants I have made in the temple with God. Perhaps this is why temple marriages survive at a much higher rate than nonMormon marriages. We are a covenant making people. The God of the Bible is a covenant-making God, and because many of the Jews of Christ’s day did not live up to their covenants, they lost the temple and its significance along with other blessings.

If I hadn’t received spiritual blessings in the past from attending the temple, I might stop. It is a place of purity, revelation and peace–set apart from the world–a place of spiritual rest and empowerment when attended in faith. (There’s that word again–faith.) We believe in eternal unions, not “til death do us part.” The temple wouldn’t matter either if God has not revealed himself again in these latter days. But once He does reveal Himself to you as an individual, and His fingerprints are all over this church, I will go where He says to go and do what He says to do.

The many miraculous occurances happened before a city of eye witnesses at the Kirtland temple, the first temple members built themselves at great personal sacrifice “because God commanded it.” (I hope you’ve read about these in all of your objective studies of Mormonism.) They were a sign that the Lord was pleased, and as far as we are concerned, if He commands it, we’ll do it. Did you read about the angels that even the little children saw on the roof dressed in white? And the music that angels were singing at the time? People came running down the streets to see what was happening.

We also do much work–baptism, eternal marriages, and eternal sealings of families– in the temple for those who cannot do it for themselves with the hope that they will or have already accept it in the spirit world. (Accept the fulness as well as Christ. There is indeed a partial judgment that occurs before one goes to the spirit world–which will make it a heaven or a hell in itself; but these are not the final kingdoms of glory.

Jesus didn’t “earn” anything? Perhaps “earn” was not a good choice. However, He performed the Atonement by continuing to surrender His will to His Father. what do you imagine that the angel said to Him when He asked the Father to “remove this cup?” I can easily imagine him reminding Jesus that He was the only one who could perform this act, definitely a “work,” of free will in behalf of His brethren (those on all the planets that He created under the Father’s watchful eye. This, by the way, was not a common or logical thought in Joseph’s day either–that God might have created more planets with human life than the earth in another galaxy, but it is beautifully laid out in latter day scripture.)

Jesus was indeed God before He ever came here, but only after He bore the pains and agonies and sins of all mankind did He actually become the Christ, the Redeemer, in more than just foreordained or predestined title. Maybe it isn’t the best choice of words to say He “earned” the title, but He DID what the Father asked, even when He had second thoughts; and glory be to His name forever because of it!

All will be resurrected, Brad. You got that right. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22) And all but the “sons of perdition,” will be assigned to some degree of glory. (Many mansions) Only those in the celestial kingdom will be with both God the Father and Jesus eternally. They Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.” (D&C 76:53) And yes, they are also ones who did what the Savior said to do although imperfectly.

I guess I’ll stick with my Savior’s example, Brad. Did He work? All the time. If He didn’t, would He have been the Savior? No, and we would all be lost.We each have callings in God’s kingdom here on earth to fill if we accept Him and His direction. Even you would not be directing so many comments to me except for the fact or reason that you yourself mentioned in one of your emails: …”for I am commanded to do so.” You must feel compelled to do so, and I think you would even say “by the Spirit.” Good works? The Spirit compells me to do them if I love my Savior. Can the Church teach anything else? If you resisted the prompting of the Spirit in one area, it would increase the likelihood that you would in other areas. When you do follow the Spirit, you are not “earning” your salvation, but if you were to continue to resist in a way that spreads to other commandments, you will find that you come to lose that motivation the Spirit brings you to live on the cutting edge of faith; and eventually, you could become as the salt that has lost it’s savor and is fit to be cast to the ground. Not in hell, but in a lesser kingdom of lesser glory. If you openly rebel against what you know by the Holy Spirit of Promise to be true, then you are a candidate for “hell.”

If that’s the case, then stop all of your temple ceremonies, and the wearing of undergarments, b/c those do nothing for anyone else, and are not found in the Bible. According to you, you will still have your salvation, so then what would you possibly be worried about? What you probably need to do is define “blessings” – does this at all refer to heaven, and/or the level you can reach?

“Receiving His gift of salvation by obeying and earning salvation for ourselves are two very different concepts. Only Jesus was capable of “earning” anything.” (Amanda)

We don’t “receive” salvation by obeying and doing His work – we receive it by faith through grace alone, and simply believing in who He is and what He’s done for us. We then show we have ALREADY received salvation BY our works, which is NOT the same as saying we’ve obeyed and received our salvation. It’s a complete opposite, in fact. And what did Jesus “earn”? There was nothing for Him to earn – He was already God!

“The thief on the cross, if you look at the Greek word for paradise, was told by Jesus that he would be with him in the “world of spirits” that day. This may not be the exaltation or the eternal destiny to which he will be assigned at the Day of Judgment. There will also be teaching going on in the world of spirits so those who died without knowledge of God will have the same opportunity to be “judged as the living.” (1 Peter 3:18-20, then 1 Peter 4:6) I know that most men and women are used to interpreting this a different way, but just think about it in a literal sense and you will understand our beliefs based upon latter day revelation as well as these two scriptures in the Bible.” (Amanda)

I know where you are getting the “world of spirits” from, Amanda, and it’s not from the Bible, nor is it from a strict translation of the Greek word. This would have been thought, by the Jews of that day, to refer to a heavenly paradise, or the place where the righteous spirits (as opposed to the evil spirits) waited until the resurrection of all souls. It is used 3 times in the NT – in Luke (as we’re discussing), in 2 Cor. (when Paul is referencing the 3rd Heaven – meaning “heaven”, not any level of heaven) and in Rev. (in reference to the paradise of God). It is NEVER in Scripture used or thought of to be a general place, where your eternal destiny hadn’t already been determined. NEVER. And yes, most people are used to interpreting 1 Peter in an entirely different way than what the Mormons do, b/c MORMONS TRANSLATE IT INCORRECTLY!!! I have already clearly showed you this many, many quotes ago, on the original Mormon thread. If we need to revisit it, we can, but your interpretation just doesn’t hold with the way the rest of Scripture speaks. We die, and then that’s it – if you hadn’t accepted by then, it’s too bad. Heb. 9:27 speaks clearly of judgment after we die (mentioning nothing of any “in-between time” to get things right), and Rom. 1:18-20 speaks clearly that EVERYONE has an opportunity, so there would not even be a NEED to have any kind of “witnessing” going on after death. Those interpretations used by Mormons just don’t hold Biblical water. At all.

“Joseph Smith was shocked, however, in one of his visions, to see his older brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom (who hadn’t been baptized yet since the church wasn’t quite yet organized) and was told by God that whoever would have accepted the gospel had they lived would receive the glory to which they would have been entitled. The ordinance was performed for him later since it is an earthly ordinance and must be performed by one with Priesthood authority.” (Amanda)

Of course, this is found NOWHERE in the Bible ANYWHERE, and is only held to by Mormon teachings. Why did Smith believe this? Since it wasn’t b/c God told him (since God didn’t appear to him), I can only surmise that it may have been b/c Smith WANTED it to be true, and thus made the belief that it was possible. Kind of like how the Mormon church wants people to believe in it – ask and believe that it’s true, sincerely, and you’ll receive positive confirmation.

“And please note: salvation is based on faith alone, but if you read all of Paul’s words, you cannot escape the fact that “faithfulness” is required to receive the blessings–which implies works. If you have faith, Paul assumes, as does the Lord from my readings, that you will be faithful, that you will not sin willfully which would be rebelling against God. One scripture cannot be at the mercy of another. They have to harmonize to reflect a correct interpretation, and sometimes higher knowledge is required to correctly understand it. (I’m NOT implying that “Mormons” have that higher knowledge about everything. There will always be more that we don’t know than that which we do, and individuals like CS Lewis have acquired as much knowledge as the entire Church in some areas of their lives.)” (Amanda)

What “blessings” would these be – do they include the higher levels of heaven by chance? I agree that if you are saved you will strive to not sin willfully. And one Scripture is never at the mercy of another, and all Scripture is in complete harmony. Problem is, Mormons claim to have that higher knowledge about much of it, as a result of God revealing it to them through their prophets. Simply untrue. And not sure what CS Lewis has to do with it – that seemed to be an odd comment, not relevant to this discussion.

“To say that the Mormon faith mandates “outward obedience for salvation” leaves the door open for misunderstanding because it gives the impression that our works save us, and yet it is true that for those of us who have the opportunity to obey, we must in order to be exalted in our Father’s kingdom.” (Amanda)

Bang – there it is. You just summed it up for me. You say that “yet it IS true that for those of us who have the opportunity to obey, we MUST in order TO BE EXALTED in our Father’s kingdom.” This is EXACTLY my point, Amanda – you may believe in general salvation by faith (which isn’t even salvation, just resurrection, which will happen to EVERYONE regardless of whether they believe or not), but you sure don’t believe in salvation to the highest by faith alone – THAT requires works, doesn’t it? No Scripture to support that from the Bible. We either make it to Heaven, or we don’t.

I disagree – b/c the “one true church” (which would refer to a belief system, not a denomination) is still made up of humans, all of whom will sin. No church is perfect and contention-free. No church. You can’t use that argument to try and elevate the LDS church, b/c it just doesn’t hold water.

“I went to the Bible AND to the true and living God. He answered me through His Spirit and His word.” (Amanda)

Wrong – you went to your feelings, as you were instructed to do by the BOM and the missionaries, and asked if it was true, believing that it was, and you magically received confirmation from the “Spirit” that it was. Gee, amazing, since you sincerely prayed about it and wanted to be so. It’s called self-confirmation. The Bible IN NO WAY confirms Mormonism, it in fact shows it’s not.

“The Turners may have a personal relationship with the Savior–I hope they do; but they, I believe, are guilty of knowingly deceiving people because of their selective and manipulative use of genuine Church resources. This behavior is not what I understand to be Christian.” (Amanda)

They don’t deceive anyone – their whole life’s work is based upon what they experienced first hand inside the Mormon church!! If it didn’t happen as they said it did, that would make them liars, I agree. But what they say happened isn’t different from other former Mormons who have also left the church, and have similar comments and stories to tell. Coincidence? I think not.

“First, about Eph. 2:8-9…I agree with every word. It is by grace that we are saved (which we receive continually by taking our Savior at His word and following Him instead of Satan or the world). There is no power in baptism or any other “work” without the grace of God, to lead us to salvation;however, we are blessed each time we obey any of His commandments. Our spiritual endowment, intelligence, or light and truth, increases as we do so.” (Amanda)

If you agree with every word, then the discussion ought to be over. But you keep trying to prove a point that is contrary to Eph. 2:8-9, so you don’t believe it AS IT WAS INTENDED, you believe it AS THE LDS CHURCH INTERPRETS IT! Big difference. It is by grace we are saved – period. There’s nothing after that we must do. We’re not “continually” saved, or working towards our salvation – we receive it at a point in time, and that point in time is when we choose to accept God’s free gift of grace through His Son Jesus Christ. You say “there is no power in baptism or any other ‘work’ without the grace of God, to lead us to salvation.” But there is no power in baptism or any other work – period! Those are simply outward signs of an inward change that has ALREADY occurred! They don’t save you, either on their own or with God’s grace, b/c you are ALREADY saved before they occur. You can throw all the Scripture you want at it, Amanda, but you will still come up short, b/c any Scripture you throw that does NOT hold to that thinking is seriously misinterpreted, b/c it would then not make sense in light of the context of the entire Bible!

Don’t worry – it isn’t just me, there are countless others who can see through the web of words that LDS try to weave, and see through to the core, which is salvation by works, and not by grace alone! There aren’t 2 types of salvation – one which means we’ll all live again and one which determines where we end up in Heaven – there’s only one “salvation”, and that determines where we spend eternity. And it is most assuredly NOT based AT ALL upon works, but upon God’s grace!!! Alone!!!!

“I think the Lord says it more powerfully than I do.” (Amanda)

He does – He also says it DIFFERENTLY than you do, which is the real key, Amanda. I’ve given you countless Scriptures, as you’ve done above, and explained all of them to show you that your stance on works, baptism and salvation just do not sync up with the Biblical views at all. You are free to choose to ignore them, as you have done, that is your right.

Amanda, I know what you believe, and why you believe it, and the misinterpretations that get you to that point. It’s been evident over the last couple months. Mormons aren’t some big mystery that nobody understands – people just don’t agree with you.

Faith Alone and Belief alone can be addressed simply by asking, “How do I know you believe? How do I know you have faith? By your works. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THOSE WORKS (“BY” is the keyword there), but if we expect any blessing from God, we must be trying, however imperfectly, to follow His words. Since our efforts are imperfect and as “filthy rags,” we rely upon His merits and mercy as the Perfect One who atoned for our sins and set the perfect example. Receiving His gift of salvation by obeying and earning salvation for ourselves are two very different concepts. Only Jesus was capable of “earning” anything.

The thief on the cross, if you look at the Greek word for paradise, was told by Jesus that he would be with him in the “world of spirits” that day. This may not be the exaltation or the eternal destiny to which he will be assigned at the Day of Judgment. There will also be teaching going on in the world of spirits so those who died without knowledge of God will have the same opportunity to be “judged as the living.” (1 Peter 3:18-20, then 1 Peter 4:6) I know that most men and women are used to interpreting this a different way, but just think about it in a literal sense and you will understand our beliefs based upon latter day revelation as well as these two scriptures in the Bible.

Joseph Smith was shocked, however, in one of his visions, to see his older brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom (who hadn’t been baptized yet since the church wasn’t quite yet organized) and was told by God that whoever would have accepted the gospel had they lived would receive the glory to which they would have been entitled. The ordinance was performed for him later since it is an earthly ordinance and must be performed by one with Priesthood authority.

The thief’s repentance in his heart, I believe, was genuine, and he exercised his newfound faith in his words of kindness, testimony, and moral support for the Savior. This evidenced that He had been converted and received a testimony of Christ.

And please note: salvation is based on faith alone, but if you read all of Paul’s words, you cannot escape the fact that “faithfulness” is required to receive the blessings–which implies works. If you have faith, Paul assumes, as does the Lord from my readings, that you will be faithful, that you will not sin willfully which would be rebelling against God. One scripture cannot be at the mercy of another. They have to harmonize to reflect a correct interpretation, and sometimes higher knowledge is required to correctly understand it. (I’m NOT implying that “Mormons” have that higher knowledge about everything. There will always be more that we don’t know than that which we do, and individuals like CS Lewis have acquired as much knowledge as the entire Church in some areas of their lives.)

To say that the Mormon faith mandates “outward obedience for salvation” leaves the door open for misunderstanding because it gives the impression that our works save us, and yet it is true that for those of us who have the opportunity to obey, we must in order to be exalted in our Father’s kingdom.

If the Lord commands and man does not obey, whatever the reason, blessings are with-held. If I smoke cigarettes and pray at the same time for a strong body, I may likely still get cancer. I will certainly have cigarette breath and yellow finger stains. Every action has a consequence. We have the Word of Wisdom, so I know the Lord has warned me that “tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly…”(Doctrine and Covenants 89:8). I would not be morally accountable for smoking before God unless His spirit prompted me in my heart and mind that it was wrong for me (through studying the issue and talking with doctors, observing the results in those who do smoke longterm, etc.) I may still get cancer and die though. But if I know that God Himself told me through a living prophet or through His word that it was wrong and disobeyed, I have sinned against my higher knowledge and am more accountable spiritually. (It doesn’t mean I won’t be “saved,” but I will lose some spiritual blessings as well as blessings of health along the way. Brad would say this is making things hard or complicated, but I say cancer is more complicated. You can apply the same principal to premarital sex and other things.

Contention is simply a sign that the church who has it going on to a notcieable scale is not the true and living church of God. Nor can the person full of contention be full of the Spirit at the same time.

“Well, gee, there’s 2 separate groups now calling themselves the “true” church. How do I decide?” (Brad)

I went to the Bible AND to the true and living God. He answered me through His Spirit and His word.

The Turners may have a personal relationship with the Savior–I hope they do; but they, I believe, are guilty of knowingly deceiving people because of their selective and manipulative use of genuine Church resources. This behavior is not what I understand to be Christian.

“Hence, you’re saying that we only receive those things BECAUSE of what we’ve done. Scripturally, that’s completely untrue. What about Ephesians 2:8-9?” (Brad)

I have never said anything other than what the Lord says. I have given you scriptures on this before, but for anyone reading, I will give them again for they are crucial to a full understanding of the Bible.

First, about Eph. 2:8-9…I agree with every word. It is by grace that we are saved (which we receive continually by taking our Savior at His word and following Him instead of Satan or the world). There is no power in baptism or any other “work” without the grace of God, to lead us to salvation;however, we are blessed each time we obey any of His commandments. Our spiritual endowment, intelligence, or light and truth, increases as we do so.

Think about:

Matt. 5:19, 20 “…whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven….for except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

How do we get “righteous? By obeying the commandments, following our Savior.

Acts 22:16 “…arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Does baptism in and of itself “wash” our sins away? No, only in the sense that the Savior declares it to be so and by His grace makes it so.

But read Matt. 3:15, 28:19, John 16:16, and then Luke 7:30–”But the Pharsees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against (for)themselves, being not baptized of him.”

John 3:5…”Except a man be born of water..he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (yes, you addressed this before, but sufficiently? See Acts 2:38, 10:48, 22:16, and

Titus 3:5…”…SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration (baptism)

And then 1Peter 3:21…”The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now SAVE US (not putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Christ.” (This is what I’ve been trying to tell you. Without the resurrection and the atonement, nothing we do matters; with them, everything matters, even though salvation cannot be separated from grace, the enabling power of God.)

Romans 6:23 “…the wages of sin is death.” (Actions matter)

Rom. 14:23 “…whatsoever is not of faith is sin…” This applies to every action. What we do matters as does our faith.

Hebrews 10:26 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation…”

James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” What we do matters if we expect blessings, even the blessing of including eternal life. It doesn’t mean that what we do has any power to save us in and of itself. This is where ythe Lords “filthy rags” excerpt comes in. Nothing we do is good in and of itself but through and with the enabling power of God, it is accounted unto us for righteousness, as were Abraham’s works.

John 7:17…”if any man do his will, he shall know….”

Matt. 7:21..”Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom…but he that doeth the will…. “(This alone would tell me that it is a requirement to do the will of God.)

2 Thes.1:8 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” In latter day revelation, the Lord has said He will start this process with His own house. (the Church)

Ex. 20:6…”And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” If I want mercy, I obey.

Gen. 4:7…”If thou doeth well, shalt thou not be accepted…”

Add Luke 6:46… “why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say…”

Luke 10:27,28 “…love the Lord thy God with all thy strength…(actions)…this do…and thou shalt live.” Again, the act of serving and loving and thinking of God..are not these “works” in your eyes?

And Romans 6:16…”Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to OBEY, his servants ye are to whom ye OBEY; whther of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Sounds like I’d better obey to become more righteous. If I want to be righteous, do I have a choice but to follow the words of my Savior? If I am not righteous, relying upon His grace and glory, can I live with Him who is the King of Righteousness in Heaven eternally?

John 8:29…”And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.” (If even the Savior did not the things that pleased His Father, would the Father have been with Him always? Will He not be a stronger presence with us under the same conditions?

John 3:21…”But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (Another reason to obey.)

In John 15:5, Jesus says …”for without me, ye can do nothing.” That pretty much sums it up. If we are in Him, the living vine, we can “bring forth much fruit.” (Good works) In verse 6, he tells us if we do not abide in Him, we are cast forth as a branch, and … withered…cast …into the fire,…and burned. “If ye abide in me, and AND MY WORDS ABIDE IN YOU, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.” (Want blessings? Obey, according to God’s words within us. We will love Him whom we list to obey.)

And finally, back to the sheep and the goats on judgment day. Very definitive.

I think the Lord says it more powerfully than I do.

“God has NEVER said, anywhere, that salvation comes from anything other than through our faith in Jesus as our Savior.” (Brad)

Neither have I. All that is pleasing to God is done in faith. With faith, We do what He commands us to do. Without faith, why bother?

“It (the Bible) may come first – but it’s interesting how you consider the BOM to be the “cornerstone” of your religion (as you quoted on a different thread). So does it REALLY come first? Nope.” (Brad)

Actually, the Book of Mormon HAS to be the cornerstone of our religion because without it, we would be just “any other church,” not the restored church of Christ. I do not put one word of God above another; yet in our day, I do believe the Book of Mormon has the power to convert people to the Bible as well as to restore needed knowledge that was lost after the deaths of the Apostles, knowledge which removes stumbling blocks from those who had formerly discounted the Bible. They (converts) can, with both books, learn doctrine which will make them a “steady ship in the ocean.”

The Gospel is Awesome! Truly AWESOME! My intent and desire is not to volley scripture in a “take that!” way, but I do want you to understand what we actually believe instead of what you have decided we believe.

God has NEVER said, anywhere, that salvation comes from anything other than through our faith in Jesus as our Savior. By what you say above, you are most assuredly confirming what everyone else here already knows about Mormons – THAT IT IS A WORKS-BASED RELIGION!! To say it’s a “condition if we want to receive the blessings of the Atonement and our salvation”, means that UNLESS we do works as part of the condition, we won’t receive those things. Hence, you’re saying that we only receive those things BECAUSE of what we’ve done. Scripturally, that’s completely untrue. What about Ephesians 2:8-9? That section completely refutes what you just said. And if you take the Bible at it’s Word, as you say you do, then you’d have to change your mine. And no, James 2 doesn’t refute Ephesians 2, they work hand in hand – works are the evidence OF salvation, not a condition FOR salvation. 2 completely different things, and you have misunderstood in your beliefs entirely.

“I’m simply saying that this would have been an entirely different conversation with someone of a different mindset.” (Amanda)

Translation – with someone else who doesn’t know as much or doesn’t disagree as vehemently. I agree, if you were to discuss these things with that person, it WOULD be a much different conversation. Just like if I were to play basketball against someone 2 feet shorter than me, I could probably dominate them. Doesn’t mean much as a real game, due to the extreme disadvantage, but nonetheless, I would win.

“We may have planted a few seeds of interest that will lead others back to the scriptures and to the Book of Mormon, and that’s good enough for me.” (Amanda)

Perhaps. And I may have planted a few seeds of doubt in some Mormons, or at least kept some from even seeking them out, which is good enough for me.

“My goal is only to provide correct knowledge about the Church to people, and to show that the Bible is not ignored or foreign to us. We love and accept it quite literally. It comes first in our “quads” and is cross-referenced with the Book of Mormon and the other standard works of our faith.” (Amanda)

It may come first – but it’s interesting how you consider the BOM to be the “cornerstone” of your religion (as you quoted on a different thread). So does it REALLY come first? Nope.

“Your saying we do not interpret the Bible correctly is simply saying that we do not interpret it as you do. This is a fine distinction for determining whether or not another religion is “Christian.” (Amanda)

No, it’s saying that you interpret the Bible incorrectly. It is a fine distinction that determines whether Mormonism is Christian or not, but it’s pretty clear – they’re not.

My comment was that there is no contention in the Lord’s church–unlike the headlines I read of other denominations. The Lord said, “By this shall man know, ye are my disciples, if ye have love, one to another.” (Amanda)

What does contention have to do with anything? It’s another buzzword that Mormons are hung up on, Amanda. It is possible to have “love” for others, yet disagree with them. I love many people whom I disagree with vehemently (you being one of them), as I am called by God to love them as He loves them. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with them, or be their best friend. You’re missing the difference, here.

“If a Mormon is not faithful or was baptized unconverted, he or she usually just fades away through lack of attendance or can turn against the church. (Some, like the Turners,” leave the Church but cannot leave it alone.” They can even make it their bread and butter.) Those are people you can truly help, Brad, for some of them have not found the Savior, and I do wish that for them.” (Amanda)

Yep, the Turners aren’t saved b/c they left the Mormon church and now speak out against it as their life’s work. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us, Amanda. Wait – I thought the Catholic church was the one true church, b/c according to the Pope it is? Well, gee, there’s 2 separate groups now calling themselves the “true” church. How do I decide? Well, look to the Bible. I have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, as defined in the Bible (defined DIFFERENTLY in the BOM). That assures me of my eternal salvation in heaven (one level, not 3).

I don’t have much time to respond with what I know to be a plethora of scriptures that confirm all of the “Faith Alone and Belief Alone” examples. All of which I sent to you in a separate e-mail, but the most apparent example is the thief on the cross. While I am sure that he repented in his heart, there was no outward “obedience to Laws and Ordinances the Gospel” as the Mormon faith mandates for salvation. Why then would he be granted entrance into the Kingdom (which is clearly the primary blessing of atonement) if salvation is not based on Faith alone as Paul hammered so diligently in Galatians??